Answer the question RANI, dont dance around and inequivicate by responding with a question to a question.
Dammit, if you're proud of whatever you believe in, then, answer Masoma's questions without broad generalizations and be specific.
Pls allow me to interject here!
The best way to deal with Masooma, who is projecting an Islam that just doesn't exist, not even in her Shia Islam, is to ask her to please show EXAMPLES of societies/countries where this 'sanitized' , 'GLOSSED-UP" version of Islam is practised.
Is it Iran? One only has to do a search on Iran AND Bahais to find out how Shia Islam has dealt with this new religion and, how it has viciously executed those found to have converted to Bahai-ism from shia-ism or those engaged in propmoting the faith. The fate of Jews have been similar!
Finally, I believe faceup has already asked you to highlight the countries where "your version"of Islam is preactised!
All those verses you quoted re: woman have nothing to do with their "status"; the verse which deals with status is the Sura an-Nisa quoted by Rani! This verse pretty much says it all and is reflected by their legal status discussed under the thread:CAN A MUSLIM WOMAN DIVORCE HER HUSBAND! This is further substantiated by their lowly status in every bloody Islamic countries.
Last but not the least - I've not studied your sections on non-muslims but it appears you have similarly GLOSSED up their position as well! Remember one thing, people are not stupid!
Rani
Let me answer the question posed by Masooma. Zman, I suggest, you not carried away, my friend!
Masooma, Secular laws offer more gurantee on all accounts than Islamic Sharia'h laws with its 7th century interpretations. India, USA, e.g. rules by secular laws.
Are you saying minorities & women are afforded more protection & justice under sharia'h laws of Iran, Saudia and Afghanistan? Could you prove it? Cite some examples! By that I mean cases of sharia laws at work affecting people's life. I d not need 'glossed up' accounts that does not exist. Show me where the proof is in the pudding!
Show me one Islamic country that allows criticism of Islam, the prophet (s) and the Companions (ra). Why is this so?
The muslims are bound by sharia'h not to DARE leave Islam; kindly refer to the Apostasy laws.
As well, muslims may convert others but not vice versa! The penalty of leaving Islam for other faith is Death because this is deemed an insult to the Prophet!
[This message has been edited by logical (edited June 23, 2000).]
Thankyou logical for pointing out that people are not stupid.
ZZ,
Dammit, if you're proud of whatever you believe in, then, answer Masoma's questions without broad generalizations and be specific.
To me humanism is most important then belonging to any particular religion. As long as you are a good human being and respect all human beings (not just other followers) men and women, and don't label human being as believers and non-believers and help less unfortunate and make your living in honest way and don't use force to make others see the world and worship in your way and fight tryranny. Also believe that God can be found in many way and it lives within all us. I don't Islam fulfill the criteria outlined by me.
P.S. Mosooma, please no more glossed over explanations, I can interpret verses very well they are very self explainatory I don't need your help.
Dear Masooma.
Make it a habbit to save all you post here because you will need to relate to it later on, and may find some discrepancies or required explanations, and might have to bring changes to your essays. Infact try saving all the conversations. Be consistant with what you write, and get into a habbit of making journals, indexes and diaries. Just realize that there are a thousands who are benefitted by what you write here, but millions could be benefitted by the same research if you get your essays published, atleast on the interet. I certainly will never like all you write to go waste.
Some of the participants have been saying, that the warning of Hell to the non-believers is ‘‘discriminatory’’. That should also be the case regarding the warning of Jail to the crminals in the constituition of America. Is that also discriminatory? Find better points!
the decision maker is a man and whom women
has to obey and he is allowed to beat her
- Hahahaha!! What about the case in America where a few policemen shot a black muslim who was shot dead because the policemen mistook his purse to be a gun? Relate that to my explanation. Although the policemen and the citizens have equal rights, the policemen have the right to shoot if they suspect misbehaviour. Why can man not manage the affairs of his Woman than, despite equal rights?
Secondly for a father inlaw to marry a wife of
adopted son, who is a was once like a daughter
to him is moraly wrong and aganist the norms of
decency.
- Yes, but you don’t look good talking about decency when you are defending a society where casual sex is a norm, and hardly a few teenagers pass their teens being virgins.
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…So they turned away from him and said, ‘’ A man tutored, possessed! ‘’
|/
Paagal Insaan!
RANI SIS,
what you are talking about is not ISLAM, NOT THE ISLAMIC TEACHINGS, WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT IS THE WAY MUSLIMS IN TODAYS WORLD ARE REPRESENTING IT.AFGHANISTAN,IRAQ,SAUDI ARABIA AND REST OF THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NON OF THEM ARE FOLLOWING WHAT QURAN ASKED THEM IF THAT WAS THE CASE, FIRT THING THESE MUSLIM COUNTRIES WOULD HAVE DONE WAS JIHAAD AGAINST INDIAN ARMY IN KASHMIR, NOT AMERICA! DEAR SISTER, RANI IF QURAN WAS TO ASK MUSLIMS TO TREAT NON-MUSLIM IN A CRUAL MANNER WHY WOULD IT STATE
“…nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brothers? But you abhor it…” Holy Quran(49:12)
“…and argue with them in the best of manner…” Holy Quran(16:125) ARGUE IN BEST OF MANNER??WOHOO WHERE DID THIS COME FROM WHEN ACORDING TO YOU ALLAH WANT US TO SLAUGHTER NON-MUSLIMS, KILL THEM IF THEY SAY A WORD AGAINST ISLAM?
“Kind word and pardon are better than charity followed by injury…” Holy Quran(2:263)
“O you who believe render not your charities worthless by reproach and injury…” Holy Quran(2:264)
“Turn to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn aside from the ignorant (7:199)”.
WHAT DO ALL THESE VERSES REFLECT, WOULD YOU MIND EXPLAINING??
ONE MORE QUESTION, AS YOU KNOW, WE MUSLIMS HAVE 2 SOURCES OF GUIDENCE, ONE IS QURAN(THE REVEALED WORD OF ALLAH SUBHAN-WATA ALA, AND THE OTHER ARE THE TRADITIONS OF THE HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (p.b.u.h). When Muhammad (s.a.w.w) conquerd MAKKAH, why did he forgive all the non-muslims living there, because according to you, Islam want muslims to kill the non-muslims who refuse to surrender??and Muhammad was following what Allah tought him, what Quran said. He could have just ordered to kill HINDA who treated the dead body of Hazrat Muhammad’s uncle, HAMZA, like an animal. Well i wonder why Muhammad (s.a.w.w) just forgave HINDA , when Allah had asked muslims to kill the non-muslims.???
Sister i dont want to discriminate any other relegion, but you know something, people make changes to every relegion. Quran is not changed, but Muslims now days have changed the true LESSON behind the teachings of Islam. It teaches Equality, Love among all human beings. Unlike hinduism, which has created ranks among their followers, a neech zaat, and brahman zaat and GOD knows how many other ranks. Talking about Cristainity, well well well, they claim Jesus God’s son??did Jesus himself ever say anything like that??I DONT THINK SO!! jesus never even called his followers cristains, nor did Moses. He never called his followers jews. According to Bibal, women is the source of evil, because EVE made Adam to cross the restrictions. According to Bibal God chose women to give birth to childeren, and suffer the pain, as a punishment for making Adam disobay GOD, but hey you know what Quran says about Mothers, it says if you want heaven, be respectful to your mothers!!where did equality go when the teaching itself is discremenating WOMEN in christainity? Muslims believe that all prophets gave the same message to this world, its the people who have changed the books according to their likings and dislikings. Muslim Countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq , they are NOT following what Quran teaches them they are doing what their EGO asks them to do, and then they call it Jihaad, and law based on Islamic teachings. Beating wives is forbidden in Islam, its a sin, but they all are doing that. Name a single muslim who is follwoing the right method to divorce, Muslims now days just say three times, talaak!talaak!talaak! and done, divorced, BUT THIS WAY IS NO WHERE WRITTEN IN QURAN. so would you blame Islam for that?? why??its the people who are spoiling the Islamic teachings??
Rani sis, i know i will never be able to convince you for anything because you dont want to believe in all this yourself. I let go sis.But please remember, its not Islam which tought muslims to kill the non-muslims, its the muslims themselves who are doing this.
Logical bhai, aray janaaaab Shari’ah laws ,so called Islamic laws, there is no section in QURAN which state all of them,Its the people who made them and as i said, people do whatever they want and then blame Islamic teachings.
AUR UN MUSLIM COUNTRIES KI GALTEEYOU KA NATEEJA YE HAI "RANI ", who says Islam teaches muslims to kill the non-muslims!! no offence!!!
Ma asalaam to all muslims! and may Allah bless the rest!
Masooma
P.S LOGICAL IM PROJECTING THE ISLAM WHICH EXISTED AT THE TIME OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD, AND THAT WAS THE TRUE ISLAM, THOSE WERE THE TRUE FOLLOWERS WHO SPENT MOST OF THEIR TIME PRAISING AND PROTECTING ISLAM, UNLIKE MUSLIMS TODAY WHO PAY MORE ATTENTION ON DISCREMINATING ISLAM. TRYING TO PROVE THAT ISLAM TEACHES CRUALITY TOWARDS NON-MUSLIMS,WHICH IS NOT TRUE, AND BHAI thats not the best way to deal with me beacuse aapki baatou mai dam nahi!
Insan,
Some of the participants have been saying, that the warning of Hell to the non-believers is ''discriminatory''. That should also be the case regarding the warning of Jail to the crminals in the constituition of America.<<
Your logic is off the wall so not believing in Islam is same as commiting criminal offence.
It is alright to have sex with your daughter-in-law because many teenagers are doing it.
Most of us non-muslims know better.
Great logic...
Masooma,
Read Logic's post he has said it all. I don't want to repeat myself.
Dear Rani, now that you are over with logic, the uneasiness is obviously visible, and visibly obvious in your tone
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
Your logic is off the wall so not believing in
Islam is same as commiting criminal offence.
- If not believing in the american constituition, and persisting with action it forbids, is a politically criminal offence, similarly, not believing in the word of God, and persisting with actions it forbids, is a religiously criminal offence! Way to go with logic! Way to go indeed!
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It is alright to have sex with your daughter-in-law
- Lol! Now this is what we call an ‘Angry Women!’ Following is the purposely deliberate misinformation in the above line:-
a-- It is not alright to have sex, rather it is allowed to marry ! So mind your language and stop acting like a kid who would twist situations to blame a Bat for his mis-shot!
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b-- ‘‘Daughter in law’’ ?? Liar! Liar! Rather, the ‘‘Wife of an adopted child.’’ an adopted child has NO legal status in Islam, and he is not a legal heir in Islam. The teachings of Islam about an adopted child are to manage his affairs until he is an adult, and then return his property if any, and leave him to manage himself. In such a situation, niether can an adopted child be called a ‘‘son’’ nor his wife, a ‘‘daughter - in - law!’’
So , how are we to believe in a person who is deliberately changing words to mis-present situations? Rather than answering your points, i’d rather demand an explanation for the above mis-information
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…So they turned away from him and said, ‘’ A man tutored, possessed! ‘’
|/
Paagal Insaan!
Asalam-u-alaikum
Rani, Pagal insaan answered you!!
way to go Pagal insaan, bravo!!
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Masooma
Pagal Insaan its no use explaining this to rani! she will still come up with a way to twist the words around and give rise to a different meaning of verses.
Dear Masooma,
I know it's no use explaining it to Rani. Whatever we write here is not just for the participants, but for a large number of silent non-participating readers. These silent readers are highly benefitted by the research you have gone through and pray for you to recieve reward from Allah.
You had to deal with a very hard first thread, and some of the remarks you had to listen to were far too personal to be considered within the limits of decency. But you do not have to lose heart. There is more to Gupshup than just Rani's and Logicals, and whatever you write here certainly does not go wasted.
It certainly is discouraging how they just multiply your hard research and long posts by zero, but you should know that such lamers as you had to deal with, are of no consequence in life. As soon as the thread ends, save it and work on it to make it an essay. Then publish that on the internet as a website about the topic being discussed. My help is available regarding that, or anything else.
For a curious reader who emailed and queried about the legal status of an adopted son in Islam. The following verse was revealed significantly prior to the one which allowed the marriege to the divorced wife of a son in law:
'' Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth and He shows the (right) Way.''
(Chapter 33, The Confederates, Verse 4)
.....So they turned away from him and said, '' A man tutored, possessed! ''
|/
Paagal Insaan!
Masooma,
I have directly quoted from Koran the treatment assigned for women and relationship between men and women that is exactly what muslim countries are doing. All You have to understand that we are not discussing your personal interpretation or how you feel.
We (pagans or Kaffirs) are not stupid don't waste your time brainwashing us...I have read most of the Koran and I don't find anything you are saying in it.
Please no more preaching how to interprete things. Spend this energy in helping Islamic women in muslim countries specially in Afganistan.
Asalam-u-Alaikum Insaan, yup i will Inshallah do that, and i will need your help for that as well. Im not into internet stuff. i have been dealing with some GORA people and it was as hard as this debate i started. As long as i have supporters like you, inshallah i wont feel down.If not all, atleast few people do understand.
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Rani ,
on one hand you say you have read Quran and then you say you dont find any of what i quoted above IN THERE?? That doesn’t make any sense!!
Rani, no one is trying to brainwash you, because no one can!! Rani, i still dont get your point?? everything you pointed out, you got the answers?? I dont wanna repeat the whole thing , scrol back, and read! Pagal insaan already explained why father in law is allowed to marry the wife of adopted son! If the child was never suckeld by the mother who adopted, then the child REMAINS NA-MEHRAM!!(A PERSON WHO YOU CAN NOT CONSIDER A FAMILY MEMBER, AS YOUR BLOOD RELATIVES)THE MOTHER HERSELF CAN GET MARRIED TO THAT CHILD!! AND THE SECOND THING, DO YOU WANT ME TO REPEAT THE VERSE FROM QURAN?
“…nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brothers? But you abhor it…” Holy Quran(49:12)
“…and argue with them in the best of manner…” Holy Quran(16:125)
COME ON RANI, IF YOU DONT WANT TO AGREE WITH THE FACTS, THAT DOESN’T MEAN ITS NOT TRUE. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO AGREE IF YOU DONT WANT TO, BUT NEXT TIME WHEN YOU SUBMIT A REPLY, PLEASE BE REASONALBLE ,MORE SPECIFIC, AND DONT REPEAT SAME QUESTIONS WHICH YOU ALREADY GOT THE ANSWERS FOR! BECAUSE YOU WILL GET THE SAME ANSWERS.
Masooma
[This message has been edited by Masooma (edited June 23, 2000).]
Rani is literally running off now!
Dear Rani,
You are yet to explain your mis-wording pointed out in my earlier post.
Now that there are three pages, lets decide on something once and for all.
-- ** The sommersaults of the Opposing Party**:-
It was first insisted that there is no equality of women and men in Islam. The contrary was proved.
It was then said there was no verse in the Koran which supported the equality of women and men. The verses were presented.
The verses presented were completely disregarded and ignored. The opposing party did not accept that their claim was false.
After disgregarding the presented verses, new verses were sought from the Koran which could be blamed of unequality.
The allegations were promptly replied to. a vague reply was given against them.
Mis-wording was pointed out in the reply. The opposing party disregarded it. Rani, a strongly convinced person accused a teenger of ''brainwashing''.
Rani decides to end it all up, saying, ''I have read most of the Koran and I don't find anything you are saying in it.'' Saying that she obviously disregards the thoroughly complete posts by Masooma where a significant number of quotes were presented from the Koran.
What does the over-all attitude suggest?
.....So they turned away from him and said, '' A man tutored, possessed! ''
|/
Paagal Insaan!
I agree with Pagal insaan & Masooma sis,
Rani what da hell are u tryin to prove hea sista?? whats with da atitude?? It seems your just stuck on one point and are ignoring the answers.
keep it up sista Masooma
and Pagal insaan take care
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/wink.gif
¡QÜÉËñ!
Masooma and all
COME ON RANI, IF YOU DONT WANT TO AGREE WITH THE FACTS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN ITS NOT TRUE. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO AGREE IF YOU DONT WANT TO, BUT NEXT TIME WHEN YOU SUBMIT A REPLY, PLEASE BE REASONALBLE ,MORE SPECIFIC, AND DONT REPEAT SAME QUESTIONS WHICH YOU ALREADY GOT THE ANSWERS FOR! BECAUSE YOU WILL GET THE SAME ANSWERS<,
You refuse to face the truth about your religion and continue to write meaningless posts and expect to convert others to your way of thinking. You refuse to believe the evidence from your own book and are blind to treatment of women in muslim country which are direct result of Islamic teaching.
I refuse to engage or continue this meaningless discussion. You underestimate other people's intelligence and overestimate your ability to hide the truth.
I am sorry I cannot read your repeatative posts anymore they are toooo boring and meaningless.
Pagal,
You have no leg to stand on I produced the verses outlining the treatment of muslim women from Koran and they don't need any explaination (I hope you can understand that once and for all) they are simple and easy to understand. Your effort to white wash them is laudable but actually and easy to see through. You need to re-examine what you are talking and your religion....
enough said ....so long.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited June 23, 2000).]
Rani sis,
Im extremely sorry if you find everything i wrote meaningless and boring but i hope some people out there found it the opposite.
And the whole discussion above makes it very clear to judge who is being ignorant and whose not.I dont have anything else to say, this article speaks for itself
Masooma
Dear Masooma
And the whole discussion above makes it very clear to judge who is being ignorant and whose not.I dont have anything else to say, this article speaks for itself<<
I agree.
Dear sis,
There is no need to paste my words. Its already there. Have a good day.
Bye
Masooma
I've come across a few responses, where apologiez are being made for the killings and the oppression of non-muslims by muslims. Yes there are many conflicts going on between the muslims and the unbelievers. From the stats below, the story seems to be the other way round.
KASHMIR: For over a decade, tens of thousands of muslims have been persecuted, killed and raped by the hindus.
CHECHNYA: After the destruction of Chechnya in 1994 by the Russians, their drunken army is back again, with the blessings of the Russian Church led by Putin the Loser. So after months of killing and raping muslims in Chechnya, the Russian people unanimously elected Putin the Loser as their president.
ISRAEL: Since the creation of Jewish state Israel, it has continued to oppress muslims, kill them, occupy their lands, occupy their homes. Remember several years ago, the killing of 70 odd muslims by a JEW as they prayed.
BOSNIA: Hundreds of thousands of muslims were killed in 1992 and afterwads by the christian serbs. Remember when thousands of muslims were slaughtered in the UN 'safe heaven' of Sebrenecia as the UN watched, or should we say the 'grave yard' prepared by the UN.
The muslims continue to be persecuted in many other lands including Phillipines, Kososva, Eritrea, Burma, etc.
So before you people start accusing the muslims of persecution, get you facts straight.
Well said!! Keep the good work up!
Ma asalaam
Masooma