Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Islam is a ‘complete’ way of life, its often said. This is usually the opening line for people who advocate the formulation of government structures, laws, and financial institutions based on Islamic injunctions. Case in point, the hudood and blasphemy law examples.. where change was amendments were resisted on the basis that these were part of that complete way of life.

Complete here isnt metaphorical. Complete means complete to such people. However most fields where the Muslim world lags woefully behind, such as modern medicine, the use of western methodologies, practices and standards is uncontroversial.. barring moral concerns such as those regarding euthanasia and abortion. The practice itself, the procedures themselves, the laws that govern those procedures .. nobody clamors for Islamizing them. Its not as if ‘Islamic medicine’ doesnt exist. Its not as if Muslim society didnt produce physicians just as it produced jurists throughout history, right back to the beginning.

Why then, do our Islamists not clamour for Islamic medicine to replace current MBBS style education… a tortuous abbreviation borrowed from the UK. Why do they not ask that hakeems and naib-hakeems replace RMOs and house officers?

Is it because ‘Islamic medicine’ is demonstrably inferior to modern medicine? If so, that is a very consequentialist approach.. could that also be applied to other aspects.. i.e. could ‘islamic law/islamic finance’ be rejected by individuals and societies on the basis that it produces inferior results?

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Certainly it can, it will require time. Islam as a religion is going through a period like "renaissance".

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

The modern rhetoric of the absolute comprehensiveness of Islam, vs the very real and historic constraints placed on government institutions, and governance practices shouldn't be confused. Islamist is a vague term, and cover many different people with different perspectives, not just that of a subset of people from Hizb-ut-Tahrir....

Aside from this, I do agree that this ideological trend of thought that has the absolute completeness of Islam is the height of absurdity...and equally selective. Not to mention out right offensive (such rhetoric is often guilty of contorting Islamic texts, drastically altering meaning and intent).

I would point out that "Islamization" of medicine may well fall into the realm of Islamization of science...of which there are many vapid manuals. Islamization of programming? Accounting? Corporate Management?

Islamic medicine does not exist, as it implies something that was a result of primary Islamic texts. Medicine that developed in Islamic societies is a hodge podge of Indian, Chinese, and early European practices plus additional local innovations (e.g. in anatomy). In that sense, it's hard to characterize any such practice as Islamic, so to speak. This isn't to suggest there isn't a hadith or so on health issues. But law and governance are different stories altogether.

We can at least show precedence for religious based influence form the earliest days of Islam and in the primary texts on such issues. Where rhetoric transcends reality, imho, is the claim that an actual, concrete, legal system was prescribed, rather than dictates that had to be, and were, incorporated into structures cobbled together and learned from other societies over a period of time.

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Very cogent, interesting post picoico. I'll respond, probably mostly agreeing with you, when I can.

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Peace ravage

I wonder how long you spent to work out how to present your argument of secularising Islamic governance to finally arrive at the lame "Islamic medicine" angle to compare it with?

Someone would have thought "Islamic medicine" has dictates other than what medicine per se brings to humanity ... rather you have artfully carved away the moral angle expecting others to perhaps draw a blind eye to it as well ... Let it be known that the Hippocratic Oath (originally) prevented such things that present the moral question.

Unfortunately there is no difference between "medicine" and "Islamic medicine" - and if you assert that "medicine" is undertaken by non-Muslims, then you only need to look at the many practices in the West that have plaques of qualified practitioners with Muslim names. Yet, if you claim that "Islamic medicine" has been forsaken for "medicine" - then you will need also to assert that "Islamic transport" being the camel has been forsaken for "modern transport" namely the motorcar ... Alas I do not know what it is you are saying ... perhaps you are saying that Shari'ah Law is outdated ... if you are then use that back bone that a radiologist will confirm you have in place and say it ... why these coy measures?

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

this shows a total misunderstanding of islam
you are not able to grasp it

stick to your own religion be it schism or humanist or whatever

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Islam provides a complete framework for leading your life, governing your masses, treatment of your sick, punishing your criminals , building your houses , covering yourself up, conducting business with each other , having fun the Islamic way and what not.
Yes Islam does not provide nitty gritty/interpolation/ijtehad of these. Islam being a universal religion and meant to be forever left you to decide the nitty gritty/interpolation/ijtehad of this framework depending on the need and progress of the society.

If you see some flaws in Islamic laws and its application , it is in those nitty gritty/interpolation/ijtehad and is caused by human error or human misunderstanding or difference of opinion.
The problem lies with this aspect that a nitty gritty/interpolation/ijtehad might apply to one society and age but might not apply to another society and age but some people insist on applying old world details to new world and refuse to grow with the growth and development of humanity.

I might not agree with your interpolation/ijtehad of Islamic law , that does not mean that you issue a fatwa against me to be a kafir and order me to be killed. Islam has also provided framework for interpolation/ijtehad and has decreed that no ijtehad/interpolation is wrong if done with the best of intentions and purpose, not to serve the vested interest of one person , group , society or leader.

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

About two days! I happen to have a relative doctor who is also very religious, and during discussions with her I noted these two, non-overlapping aspects to her personality, where as a doctor shes a doctor operating by an elaborate code of conduct and practices largely distinct from religious overtones which usually play a big role in other specifics of her life. The answer to that is that the practice of medicine is infact very professionalized, and it is accepted as such by most people. There is no imperative to 'Islamize' this medicine, which we would have if the 'complete' was literal. It is a system that we have largely taken wholesale. Yet there is no real, principle that distinguishes this very professional field from the similarly professional, similarly evolved from its own internal developments, fields of banking, finance, law, governance and so on. Just as we have acquired medicine from the west largely intact, the civilian institutions, legal systems and banking practices we have are also similarly inherited. Why the difference in approach, in one case we are happy to let that system continue unhindered.. in the other we wish to apply 'completion'.

[quote]

Someone would have thought "Islamic medicine" has dictates other than what medicine per se brings to humanity ... rather you have artfully carved away the moral angle expecting others to perhaps draw a blind eye to it as well ... Let it be known that the Hippocratic Oath (originally) prevented such things that present the moral question.

[/quote]

Exactly! Medicine is not amoral, medicine very much has a philosophy and ethics developed over time. The Hippocratic Oath is merely an instance of an extensive set of moral guidelines ranging from patients rights to privacy laws to informed consent to how to behave if there is a risk of contamination/contagion. Some of these rules date back to ancient greek times, some may have been informed by Muslim doctors, some by athiests and agnostics. If the completion rhetoric were truly believed, all this exercise in secular lawmaking would be abandoned, or atleast transformed with Islamic terms by Muslim scholars.

The parallel can be found in any of the fields I've compared with. Just as doctors have an evolved philosophy, so do fields such as governance, law.. even systems of finance.

I should also note that the purported role of religion/morality in governance, law and finance is not limited to moral codes guiding choices made in how technical practices are applied.. as in the example of the Hippocratic oath. Islamic governance/finance/legal systems are not merely different in the code of ethics but also the actual technical practice and construction of the systems themselves.

[quote]

Unfortunately there is no difference between "medicine" and "Islamic medicine" - and if you assert that "medicine" is undertaken by non-Muslims, then you only need to look at the many practices in the West that have plaques of qualified practitioners with Muslim names. Yet, if you claim that "Islamic medicine" has been forsaken for "medicine" - then you will need also to assert that "Islamic transport" being the camel has been forsaken for "modern transport" namely the motorcar ... Alas I do not know what it is you are saying ... perhaps you are saying that Shari'ah Law is outdated ... if you are then use that back bone that a radiologist will confirm you have in place and say it ... why these coy measures?
[/QUOTE]

I agree.. medicine is just one instance of many a professional field where what is purported to be the 'Islamic' version of these fields has largely been abandoned. This suggests that the word 'complete' is more rhetoric than reality.. it is infact limited to certain professional fields. Therefore if 'complete system' is not the basis for Islamizing these specific fields, in contrast to other fields that are untouched, what is?

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

@picoico i dont think i can find enough in your post to disagree with, so i'll leave it at a 'like' :)

@Mirch so you feel that Islam offers broad-stroke guidelines in all aspects of life, but the fine-grained details are left to ijtehad. thats also something i would agree with, with this exception: traditionally ijtehad is based on 'Islamic' sources.. Quran/Hadis. Presumably you are broadening that definition to include non-Islamic sources of knowledge?

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

First we must define what we mean by 'Islam' or 'Islamic' and what are the boundaries of this term. For instance, if a Muslim scientist invents a gadget, should the invention be called an 'Islamic' one? Are the laws and principles presented by our Prophet (saww) referential and revolve around the mankind or is it us revolving around these laws and principles?

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

i dont want to define whats really Islamic. variously I've been quoting 'islamic law' etc, giving an indication of what i mean i.e. what is meant by these terms in common parlance/society particularly those that advocate 'Islamic' law/banking/governance (usually the three professional fields most people limit themselves to in the quest for complete systems). Feel free to define what the term should mean, and whether people go wrong defining it.. its an open-ish question.

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

:salam:

I really like this thread.

Perhaps in the laymans/professionals perception the quest to Islamize something originates from the discovery of some basic injunction of Islam being violated in the widepsread systems of finance/governing.

I do agree that completeness as professed by many of us muslims is quite rhetorical and could not be defined top-to-bottom or in a sense, which would be complete.

Specifically in the field of medicine, there has been an evolution or professionalism to preserve or alleviate human life and ailments out of necessity leaving little room for a different angle which could be claimed as Islamic. Human health and its deterioration has little relationship to ones religous beliefs. Being a muslim does not guarantee to have better or fuller health over people from other beliefs.

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

When Muslims conquered Egypt there were lots of Roman Physicians or Physicians trained in Rome which was the seat of learning during Roman Supramacy!

These Physicians complained/lamented to the Muslim Sahaba why they never got sick?

The Sahaba answered, our Holy Prophet (PBH) has taught us, do not eat until you are hungary, even then when you eat, stop when there is still room left in your stomachs, never fill your stomach...........

That in essence ravage Bhai is the wisdom behind Medicine that Rasul Allah taught his followers.

Western Medicine knows all about that, but this way of life does not sell any products for profit!

What western science has brilliantly created is HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP and HYDROGENATED OILS and REFINED SUGARS......

All these are causes for over eating because these substances are not processed by our livers like other natural foods...

hence after eating all these refined POISONS we are still hungary! becuase instead of these substance converting to energy they are converted to Fat and stored around the mid section.

They cause hardening of the arteries, diabetese and high blood pressure!

Wallaaa that brings all folks in to the High Tech Med Centers.................I am sure you are smart enough to get the picture by now!..Peace!

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

so what you're saying is that western medicine is only needed because of western introduced substances like high fructose corn syrup? it might be the case for diseases like diabetes but theres any number of diseases that are ancient that have been all but wiped out or defanged in their severity. Smallpox polio leprosy spring to mind. Its a bit simplistic to say most or even a significant proportion of the total medical problems the world and third world in particular are down to western foodstuff or other aspects of modern living.

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

No not totally in that vien....there is no doubt the advances in modern medicine ....... in wiping out dangerous deseases like small pox and polio..............yet on the other hand take the case of American Indians...........all the years till Columbus landed they did not have small pox and other deadly plagues!....may be they did and no one new what they were or kept any records!

But one study has found that children growing up bare foot have better coping immune systems than those raised always wearing shoes and in fully paved surroundings.............

So in essence the body has a very capable immune system if only we let it do it's job!.....but that you might argue is survival of the fittest........

So we need medicine and corrective surgical techniques for the rest.

Your point about us Muslims not making significant advances in Medicine lately is correct.....no fault of our religion though....we are advised to seek knowledge where ever we can find it!

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I don't quite grasp what you're going for in the OP.

Islam does not limit practice and exploration of the different aspects of daily life. And saying Islamic medicine equals Hakeems is a flawed argument. Islamic medicine is a term coined by people, not by the religion of Islam. I hope you get my point, its pretty simple.

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Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

The question is, why is there a difference in approach between systems and ethics of medicine and systems and ethics of finance/law/governance. In the latter cases the 'Islamic' versions definitely limit practice and exploration and infact prescribe alternative systems to what is the state of the art in those fields. In the former the cliched response is whatever the state of the art in terms of practices and procedures is thats Islamic we can take that as is. Why?

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whats going to be the next question??

islamic engineering?

islam comes in when there is something which is highlighted in sacred texts that needs to be complied with...

in case of medicine it may relate to ethical issues regarding cloning, abortion, stem cell research ,plastic surgery etc.......... those issues involve islamic jurisprudence etc.....but not how to give an injection or perform a surgery or a new endoscopic technique....

similarly in financial system the 'interest/riba' is the issue...........there isn't anything specific about whether ..say...online payment is islamic, or the accounting standards used, or company structures n corporate laws..........all those don't concern islam.......

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So you're saying what Mirch is saying.. the 'completeness' is limited, and restricted to certain instances of the totality of the moral issues that concern any given field. I say certain, because even the medical examples you quote are only notable because they are controversial almost everywhere and there is no universal consensus on them. This does not mean that this is the extent of moral and ethical guidelines that doctors work with, most of which have a secular/consensus based/foreign origin.

You see the comprehensiveness rhetoric, especially in law and governance (and sometimes finance, depending on who you talk to) is that completeness means completeness i.e. any structures and laws that have foreign sources are undesirable, and should be replaced by 'Islamic' laws and governance structures.