Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

That level of ‘completeness’ isn’t asserted by any sane person…that it would mean each n every tiny nitty gritty of every field is to be dictated by religion…thats just impossible…

…i don’t know anybody who says ‘any’ foreign source is to be rejected altogether…what i always heard was…if there is nothing against islamic principles…u can accept it…regardless of its source…be it ‘foreign’ or ‘local’…whatever those terms mean.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

^ thats the negative impulse right.. if its not against Islam you can accept it. the same applies in culture, if a cultural practice is not against Islamic principles you can adopt it. But you also have the positive impulse, accept only that which is either explicitly prescribed or converted into Islamic terminology and principles.

One example is patients privacy rights. Universally doctors can be told, as part of patient history, a person’s lifestyle. This is not treated as a confession of sins and it is never the doctor’s business to say inform authorities etc if a person’s lifestyle is devious. This is a completely secular/non-judgemental impulse, that has as basis things like individual privacy and respecting people’s freedoms of choice.. ideals not exactly derived from Islamic origins, even if not necessarily directly contradictory of them. The relative in question routinely treats people for alcohol poisoning in Pakistan, without ever feeling the need to punish them, and even if she did, even in Pakistan she would be fired for acting on that impulse.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

^ so its a particular area of her duties i.e Patient privacy…that can be checked into…in accordance with islamic principles…i still don’t see any need or possibility of a ‘complete’ …“local islamic” framework for medicine sciences…

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

thats what Im saying, you dont see Jamaat-e-Islami/Hizb-ut-Tehrir rallying round saying Islamize medicine please. Why just law, governance and banking/finance.. three arbitrary professional fields.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

^if they say that… they be stupid..simple…

although i guess…the foundations and broad principles of those fields contain more ‘‘islam sensitive’’ areas compared to medicine…probably

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

which highlights the limitations of the ‘completeness’ talk, if you are more ‘sensitive’ in some professions than others.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

not all professions are same…u can’t have everything identical…

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

islam is a complete way of life, theres been nothing mentioned or hinted in this thread that would change this fact

the minorities (belonging to sects) are more prone to this line of attack.

basically this thread is a reworked ai (anti islamic) christian allegation that islam is not complete. on here it is mixed with a few well known concepts of falsehood. the christians were intelligent enough to avoid this and did not delve into specifics

anyway here is a summary of it

please dont take too much notice of how they are trying to portray our belief
since the allegation is on our beliefs we all know our Prophet SAW lived a complete way of life but lets leave the Prophet SAW and the Sahaba RAWA ( RAWA = Allah SWT is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him)
modern (not modren) examples can be shown by asking yourself 'can a muslim, starting with no money in his pocket or food to eat go a whole day conducting himself in the islamic way? of course he can. for two days? a year? for longer? this person lives the complete islamic way of life

can anyone in the permissable professions go a whole day in the islamic way? yes he can

what if this makes muslims less competetive in the marketplace? if it does then it does (but i know muslims would fare very well in many industries due to superior ethics) as muslims we believe Allah SWT and only Allah Subhanahu provides sustenence.

societies rejecting islam
is it possible for all of humanity to reject islam or for islam to be wiped out? NO
is it possible for non muslims to reject islam? YES
is it possible for muslim societies to partially reject/avoid islam? YES
is it possible for muslims to wholly (complete way of life) accept and live islam? YES

book of Allah SWT says (khan translation) ""And (it is revealed to me): Direct your face (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) **entirely towards the religion **Hanif (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone), and never be one of the Mushrikun (those who ascribe partners to Allah, polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and those who worship others along with Allah).

tafsir:

article:

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Wah. So your allegation is that I read this christian website and then reworked it using my own experiences with the same purposes as those of this anti-christian site. Paranoid much?

This is the overuse of persecution and the world is out to get me talk that dilutes genuine victimization. Trust me, IF I am even inspired by any other source, I would cite it. Thats part of my deen, and I have many more years of posting history than you on this very website to back that up.

So this is the substantive part of your post. You are asserting positively that comprehensive means comprehensive, and say that its possible to follow that way of life even if it may disadvantage you in certain professions. Fair enough. That is not an unusual opinion IMO, The Amish, the Luddites all took similar positions even on the christian side (suggesting that one answer to the christian article you posted is to tell them that this rhetoric exists on their side as well).

But whats interesting to me are the implications of what you’re saying above and in the text you posted. You say comprehensive means comprehensive and people who seek any other ‘deen’ are going to hell. Does that mean that otherwise devout Muslims who follow the ‘deen’ of any particular profession, ‘deen’ (codes of conduct) derived secularly i.e. through consensus on disparate origins and religious/areligious/athiest formulators, for instance doctors/lawyers/auditors etc, are going to Hell because they choose to do follow it?

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Peace ravage

Well may be I have an answer that may be either a bit too simplistic for you or one that you would not like … Regarding the question why is it that the Muslim world on the whole has accepted medicine as per the modern world and yet not accepted other matters as per the modern world?

Apart from emphasising my original point which is that I do not believe Islamic medicine is different from modern medicine per se, except in some moral confines of specifics, otherwise there is a cause an effect understanding that the Muslim doctors attribute to the Power and Wisdom of Allah (SWT) and the non-Muslim doctors merely accept is a phenomenon of nature.

At a very high level - the strategic objective of “Medicine” is to provide care for humanity. It is altogether a charitable venture however in the hands of the secularised people (which includes Muslims who prefer to be secular in their worldly affairs) … It is hence easier to disguise amoral ends in medicine than other disciplines and the initial barrier of “conflicted intents” is not there … Since Islam encourages “care” and the purpose of medicine is just that then it is no wonder that there seems to be greater assimilation of the Islamic ideals from modern medicine. Even though in some cases “alcohol” being a suitable medical product is disallowed for religious reasons in perfumes, cleaning products and tinctures and syrup based medicines - based on the need to adhere to Islamic values … However some Islamic interpretations make using alcohol in these contexts permissible - it would be wrong to say those other Islamic interpretations are any less Islamic. Rather because the ruling was undertaken by the process of ijtehad - i.e. by Muslim scholars who have considered the input of professionals in the medical profession, with due research and careful attention to scripture to deem both the use or to avoidance of alcohol are equally Islamic in my eyes.

What would be unIslamic would be if doctors who were not Islamic scholars were allowed to make this choice for us - so essentially it is about the secularisation of disciplines. Essentially what you are arguing for is the “secularisation of Islam” and that I cannot agree with.

Every case whether finance, governance or otherwise needs to be subjected to Islamic jurisprudence in order to ratify the impact proposals have on our Islamic outlook. It is true that the general idea is to deem as acceptable everything that is not in the religion except what is specifically stated and to deem as prohibited everything in religion except what it specifically allowed. However this a high level criterion … Investigation is always required to determine whether any issue does have an Islamic impact or not, whether something has been specifically prohibted or not … the process of Ijtehad hence takes the form of a review as well as an evaluation.

In any case the reason why other disciplines are not readily accepted by Muslims is because they present themselves in a very different light than “care” … to give a simple example …

As the chieftain of a town you are required to cater for the needs of three denominations one of whom you belong to … It may be that you set up a structure that gives the higher ranked jobs to people of your own denomination and others get lower grade jobs … it may be that everyone is prone to get a certain disease from a nearby mine that the lower classes enter to provide fuel for the townsfolk … This disease is highly contagious … so in order to protect your own people you will see to it that even the lower classes are protected in order to keep them healthy to provide for you since they do the mining, which gives you the fuel to use. So you start an initiative to treat all people of this disease and even find a preventive measure for it - an immunisation jab. Now it is hard for a lay person to detect the reason why you care for him is so he continues being productive and does not make your people ill as well. On the other hand when it comes to jobs - which is a financial matter it is hard to convince him that your intent is to please all people - you cannot distribute wealth to all equally as that will betray the bias you have for your own people … Alas we have a dilemma. Selected people from the lower classes are put in to positions to care for the sick and they are questioned why is it that you can be comfortable giving medicine in accordance to the wills of Chief ravage but yet you dispute his other law of financial control? The answer that he gives is:

“His law of care serves the purpose for the collective and his law of financial control serves the purpose of a few”

And that could be along the same lines as to why medicine appears to be more on the uptake than other matters from the modern world. The intricacies and inner workings of the modern world is “unfair” designed to benefit the few and this high level ethos is at loggerheads with Islam. This may be the reason why some things are more readily taken on board than others … Quite frankly I am glad that we are being selective with how we follow the “modern secularised world” in their ventures - it shows that we are still thinking and have not acquired the condition of lemminghood !!!

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Thank you for your well thought out post. I’ve only skimmed over it at the moment, will give it a proper read probably tomorrow and get back to you.