Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

That level of 'completeness' isn't asserted by any sane person...that it would mean each n every tiny nitty gritty of every field is to be dictated by religion....thats just impossible....

...i don't know anybody who says 'any' foreign source is to be rejected altogether.........what i always heard was..........if there is nothing against islamic principles.......u can accept it...regardless of its source...be it 'foreign' or 'local'...whatever those terms mean.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

^ thats the negative impulse right.. if its not against Islam you can accept it. the same applies in culture, if a cultural practice is not against Islamic principles you can adopt it. But you also have the positive impulse, accept only that which is either explicitly prescribed or converted into Islamic terminology and principles.

One example is patients privacy rights. Universally doctors can be told, as part of patient history, a person's lifestyle. This is not treated as a confession of sins and it is never the doctor's business to say inform authorities etc if a person's lifestyle is devious. This is a completely secular/non-judgemental impulse, that has as basis things like individual privacy and respecting people's freedoms of choice.. ideals not exactly derived from Islamic origins, even if not necessarily directly contradictory of them. The relative in question routinely treats people for alcohol poisoning in Pakistan, without ever feeling the need to punish them, and even if she did, even in Pakistan she would be fired for acting on that impulse.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

^ so its a particular area of her duties i.e Patient privacy...........that can be checked into...in accordance with islamic principles..........i still don't see any need or possibility of a 'complete' ..."local islamic" framework for medicine sciences.......

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

thats what Im saying, you dont see Jamaat-e-Islami/Hizb-ut-Tehrir rallying round saying Islamize medicine please. Why just law, governance and banking/finance.. three arbitrary professional fields.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

^if they say that..... they be stupid..simple...

although i guess.........the foundations and broad principles of those fields contain more ''islam sensitive'' areas compared to medicine....probably

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

which highlights the limitations of the 'completeness' talk, if you are more 'sensitive' in some professions than others.

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

not all professions are same.......u can't have everything identical...

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

islam is a complete way of life, theres been nothing mentioned or hinted in this thread that would change this fact

the minorities (belonging to sects) are more prone to this line of attack.

basically this thread is a reworked ai (anti islamic) christian allegation that islam is not complete. on here it is mixed with a few well known concepts of falsehood. the christians were intelligent enough to avoid this and did not delve into specifics

anyway here is a summary of it
[QUOTE]
One of the most common claims Muslims make about Islam is that it is a complete way of life. Of course, the assumption behind this is that as a complete way of life Islam is superior to all other religions because those religions do not prescribe and describe a complete way of life. Of cou*rse, one could respond to this claim by showing that Islam indeed fails to be complete in a number of ways; ho*wever, I think the trouble with this approach is that it fails to question the problematical assumption, namely, that a complete way of life is a superior way of life, or worse, a complete way of life is a divinely inspired way of life. This short article attempts to show that what Muslims set forth as an unarguable assumption is actually highly debatable.

[/QUOTE]

please dont take too much notice of how they are trying to portray our belief
since the allegation is on our beliefs we all know our Prophet SAW lived a complete way of life but lets leave the Prophet SAW and the Sahaba RAWA ( RAWA = Allah SWT is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him)
modern (not modren) examples can be shown by asking yourself 'can a muslim, starting with no money in his pocket or food to eat go a whole day conducting himself in the islamic way? of course he can. for two days? a year? for longer? this person lives the complete islamic way of life

can anyone in the permissable professions go a whole day in the islamic way? yes he can

what if this makes muslims less competetive in the marketplace? if it does then it does (but i know muslims would fare very well in many industries due to superior ethics) as muslims we believe Allah SWT and only Allah Subhanahu provides sustenence.

societies rejecting islam
is it possible for all of humanity to reject islam or for islam to be wiped out? NO
is it possible for non muslims to reject islam? YES
is it possible for muslim societies to partially reject/avoid islam? YES
is it possible for muslims to wholly (complete way of life) accept and live islam? YES

book of Allah SWT says (khan translation) ""And (it is revealed to me): Direct your face (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) **entirely towards the religion **Hanif (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone), and never be one of the Mushrikun (those who ascribe partners to Allah, polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and those who worship others along with Allah).

tafsir:
[QUOTE]
The force of the Arabic words of the text "Dedicate yourself sincerely, exclusively and steadfastly to this Faith", is worth deep consideration. The purpose might have been served by the use of such words as "Adopt this Faith" or "Follow this Faith". But Allah considered such expressions as weak and incapable of serving the real purpose, which is implied in the wording of the Text. For the literal meaning is "Set your face steadfastly", which implies, "You should steadfastly turn your face in one direction only, without turning it even slightly to right or left, or backward, and go on marching in the same direction." Though these words were in themselves quite sufficient, the addition of the word made it all the more forceful. For (Hanif) is one who turns away from all others and exclusively turns to one direction. Thus what Allah demands is this: "Adopt** this Faith, this Way of the worship of Allah and this way of life in such a manner that your worship, subjection, submission, servitude and obedience should be dedicated exclusively to Allah, t**he Lord of the universe, so that you do not deviate in the least after adopting this Way, you should have nothing to do with those ways that you have discarded and that you should not even have a look at the crooked paths that erroneous people follow."
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article:

[QUOTE]

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Definition of the Word Deen & the Word Islam
(Friday speech was delivered by Imam Mohamed Baianonie at the Islamic Center of Raleigh, N. C., on December 27,1996)

Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 19), what can be translated as, "The deen before Allah (accepted by Allah) is Islam". He also says in surat Al-Mae’dah, (Verse 3), what can be translated as, "Today, I have completed your deen, and have completed my bliss upon you and accepted for you Islam as a deen." He also says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 85), what can be translated as, "Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers."
The word deen and the word Islam were mentioned in these verses and in many others in the Qur’an. These two words are two of the most important words in the life of the Muslims, because the guidance, success in this life and in the Hereafter depends on two things: Understanding the meaning of these two words (deen and Islam), and applying this meaning in life.
Our understanding for these two words got weak because of our weakness in the Arabic language with which Qur’an was revealed. As a result, we repeat these two words (deen and Islam) with the tongues without understanding them except for a few people who could understand them as they should be understood. So, it is impossible to apply their meanings in our lives, despite our insistence on belonging to the deen and specifically to Islam.
What is the meaning of the word deen and the word Islam?
To answer this question, it is a must that we refer to the Arabic language dictionaries which still keep the meaning of how the Arabs used to understand the word deen and the word Islam when Qur’an was being revealed. In that period of time, there was no problem with understanding these two words by the Arabs from whom the companions of the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) came. That generation that transformed the understanding for these two words into reality in their individual and collective lives. As a result, this understanding led them to the guidance, the guidance of Islam. This change was the greatest change in the long history of mankind.
The concept of deen: The word deen is used in the Arabic language to give different meanings, most importantly are:

  1. Subjugation, Authority, Ruling and Having ChargeA. He subjugated people to obey. Subjugated here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen.

B. He has authority over him. Has authority here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen. In this context, the saying of the prophet (S.A.W.) reveals this meaning, "The intelligent person is the one who has authority over himself and works for the Hereafter" This means that the intelligent person is the one who has subjugated himself and made himself obedient to Allah. In this context, also, the past participle would be subjugated, ruled and submitted. For example, Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Waqe’ah, (Verse 86 & 87), what can be translated as, "If you are not subjugated, then return it if you are truthful". This means, if you are not forced by the will of Allah in the issues of death and life, then return the soul to the body after it has left it due to death.

  1. Obedience and Submission due to Subjugation:
  2. The Method and the Habit:
  3. Punishment, Reward and Judgment: The Arabs had a saying, which implies the following: you are treated the same way you treat others.

These four linguistic meanings constitute the concept of the word deen in the Qur’an where it implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts:

  1. The rulership and the authority belong to Allah (S.W.T.).
  2. The obedience and submission to this rulership and authority by those who embraced this deen.
  3. The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) established by this authority (Allah).
  4. The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those that followed the system and submitted to it and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it.

Based on this definition of deen, we can summarize that deen is a submission, following and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects.
After understanding this definition of the Arabic word deen, we realize that it is wrong to translate it to the English with the word "religion". **Furthermore we do not need anyone to come up with a definition for the word deen for us- like many of the enemies of Islam do today- But, **we should take precaution and warn Muslims against these conspiracies that are plotted against Muslims to keep them away from the reality of their deen and distort the concept of deen or restrict it to one aspect of life-like they (None Muslim) did with there religion and church after the French Revolution.
It is obligatory for us to clarify to the people the reality of deen in the Islamic perspective, also obligatory for us to implant this reality in our youth’s mind so that they will not confuse the concept of deen with all these wrongful and distorting definitions.
This is about the definition of the word deen, what about the meaning of the word Islam?
Islam in the Arabic language and in Qur’an means total submission and obedience. Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 83), what can be translated as, "Do they seek a deen other than the deen of Allah and to Him all what is in the skies and in the earth have submitted willingly or forcefully and to Him they shall return"
This word Islam had been used in the Qur’an as a symbol for the deen that was revealed to Muhammad (S.A.W.) and Allah clarified that He will not accept from man other deen even if it was from the previous divine deens. Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Imran, (Verse 85), what can be translated as, "He who chooses other than Islam a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers." This meaning is emphasized by the saying of the prophet (S.A.W.) when he said, "By whom my soul is in His hand, if one, Jew or Christian, heard of me, then died and he/she did not believe in that which I was sent with, then they are from the dwellers of Hell fire." (Reported by Imam Muslim)
Islam is a divine system, with it Allah (S.W.T.) sealed all other deens, and made it a comprehensive system that deals with all aspects of human life (Belief, intellectual, moral and practical) and this system is based on total submission to Allah (S.W.T.) alone and no one else and purifying worship to Him, and adopting all that is authentic from the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).
[/QUOTE]

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Wah. So your allegation is that I read this christian website and then reworked it using my own experiences with the same purposes as those of this anti-christian site. Paranoid much?

This is the overuse of persecution and the world is out to get me talk that dilutes genuine victimization. Trust me, IF I am even inspired by any other source, I would cite it. Thats part of my deen, and I have many more years of posting history than you on this very website to back that up.

[quote]

since the allegation is on our beliefs we all know our Prophet SAW lived a complete way of life but lets leave the Prophet SAW and the Sahaba RAWA ( RAWA = Allah SWT is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him)
modern (not modren) examples can be shown by asking yourself 'can a muslim, starting with no money in his pocket or food to eat go a whole day conducting himself in the islamic way? of course he can. for two days? a year? for longer? this person lives the complete islamic way of life

can anyone in the permissable professions go a whole day in the islamic way? yes he can

what if this makes muslims less competetive in the marketplace? if it does then it does (but i know muslims would fare very well in many industries due to superior ethics) as muslims we believe Allah SWT and only Allah Subhanahu provides sustenence.

societies rejecting islam
is it possible for all of humanity to reject islam or for islam to be wiped out? NO
is it possible for non muslims to reject islam? YES
is it possible for muslim societies to partially reject/avoid islam? YES
is it possible for muslims to wholly (complete way of life) accept and live islam? YES

[/quote]

So this is the substantive part of your post. You are asserting positively that comprehensive means comprehensive, and say that its possible to follow that way of life even if it may disadvantage you in certain professions. Fair enough. That is not an unusual opinion IMO, The Amish, the Luddites all took similar positions even on the christian side (suggesting that one answer to the christian article you posted is to tell them that this rhetoric exists on their side as well).

But whats interesting to me are the implications of what you're saying above and in the text you posted. You say comprehensive means comprehensive and people who seek any other 'deen' are going to hell. Does that mean that otherwise devout Muslims who follow the 'deen' of any particular profession, 'deen' (codes of conduct) derived secularly i.e. through consensus on disparate origins and religious/areligious/athiest formulators, for instance doctors/lawyers/auditors etc, are going to Hell because they choose to do follow it?

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Peace ravage

Well may be I have an answer that may be either a bit too simplistic for you or one that you would not like ... Regarding the question why is it that the Muslim world on the whole has accepted medicine as per the modern world and yet not accepted other matters as per the modern world?

Apart from emphasising my original point which is that I do not believe Islamic medicine is different from modern medicine per se, except in some moral confines of specifics, otherwise there is a cause an effect understanding that the Muslim doctors attribute to the Power and Wisdom of Allah (SWT) and the non-Muslim doctors merely accept is a phenomenon of nature.

At a very high level - the strategic objective of "Medicine" is to provide care for humanity. It is altogether a charitable venture however in the hands of the secularised people (which includes Muslims who prefer to be secular in their worldly affairs) ... It is hence easier to disguise amoral ends in medicine than other disciplines and the initial barrier of "conflicted intents" is not there ... Since Islam encourages "care" and the purpose of medicine is just that then it is no wonder that there seems to be greater assimilation of the Islamic ideals from modern medicine. Even though in some cases "alcohol" being a suitable medical product is disallowed for religious reasons in perfumes, cleaning products and tinctures and syrup based medicines - based on the need to adhere to Islamic values ... However some Islamic interpretations make using alcohol in these contexts permissible - it would be wrong to say those other Islamic interpretations are any less Islamic. Rather because the ruling was undertaken by the process of ijtehad - i.e. by Muslim scholars who have considered the input of professionals in the medical profession, with due research and careful attention to scripture to deem both the use or to avoidance of alcohol are equally Islamic in my eyes.

What would be unIslamic would be if doctors who were not Islamic scholars were allowed to make this choice for us - so essentially it is about the secularisation of disciplines. Essentially what you are arguing for is the "secularisation of Islam" and that I cannot agree with.

Every case whether finance, governance or otherwise needs to be subjected to Islamic jurisprudence in order to ratify the impact proposals have on our Islamic outlook. It is true that the general idea is to deem as acceptable everything that is not in the religion except what is specifically stated and to deem as prohibited everything in religion except what it specifically allowed. However this a high level criterion ... Investigation is always required to determine whether any issue does have an Islamic impact or not, whether something has been specifically prohibted or not ... the process of Ijtehad hence takes the form of a review as well as an evaluation.

In any case the reason why other disciplines are not readily accepted by Muslims is because they present themselves in a very different light than "care" ... to give a simple example ...

As the chieftain of a town you are required to cater for the needs of three denominations one of whom you belong to ... It may be that you set up a structure that gives the higher ranked jobs to people of your own denomination and others get lower grade jobs ... it may be that everyone is prone to get a certain disease from a nearby mine that the lower classes enter to provide fuel for the townsfolk ... This disease is highly contagious ... so in order to protect your own people you will see to it that even the lower classes are protected in order to keep them healthy to provide for you since they do the mining, which gives you the fuel to use. So you start an initiative to treat all people of this disease and even find a preventive measure for it - an immunisation jab. Now it is hard for a lay person to detect the reason why you care for him is so he continues being productive and does not make your people ill as well. On the other hand when it comes to jobs - which is a financial matter it is hard to convince him that your intent is to please all people - you cannot distribute wealth to all equally as that will betray the bias you have for your own people ... Alas we have a dilemma. Selected people from the lower classes are put in to positions to care for the sick and they are questioned why is it that you can be comfortable giving medicine in accordance to the wills of Chief ravage but yet you dispute his other law of financial control? The answer that he gives is:

"His law of care serves the purpose for the collective and his law of financial control serves the purpose of a few"

And that could be along the same lines as to why medicine appears to be more on the uptake than other matters from the modern world. The intricacies and inner workings of the modern world is "unfair" designed to benefit the few and this high level ethos is at loggerheads with Islam. This may be the reason why some things are more readily taken on board than others ... Quite frankly I am glad that we are being selective with how we follow the "modern secularised world" in their ventures - it shows that we are still thinking and have not acquired the condition of lemminghood !!!

Re: Distinction between Medicine and Governance/Banking in Muslim societies

Thank you for your well thought out post. I've only skimmed over it at the moment, will give it a proper read probably tomorrow and get back to you.