Discussion on Quran and status of Jesus [Edited]

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your comment…

[QUOTE]
Apple: can you please give me a reference of the whole verse from your bible where it is stated that God created this universe in 6 days. Tell me the whole thing about that. Appreciated.
[/QUOTE]

I smell a Red Herring…

But, let me humor you…

The first issue of Biblical borrowing has just occurred. Six “days” of creation.

Here are the relevant Koranic verses that copy the Six “day” Theme from the Holy Bible:

1) THAT YOUR LORD (IS) ALLAH WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on/straightened on the throne/royal bed/palace, the daytime covers/darkens the night, it seeks/wants it quickly/urgently , and the sun and the moon and the stars/planets (are) manipulated/subjugated with His order/command, is (it) not to Him the creation and the order/command/matter/affair? Blessed (is) Allah the creatures all together's/(universes') Lord. (7:54)

2) THAT YOUR LORD (IS) ALLAH WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH IN SIX DAYS then He aimed to/tended to on the throne, He plans/regulates the matter/affair, (there is) no/none from a mediator except from after His permission/pardon, that one (is) Allah, your Lord, so worship Him, so do you not mention/remember/praise? (10:3)

3) AND HE IS WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH, IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, and His throne was/is on the water, to test you which of you (is) best/better (in) deed(s), and if you said: "That you are being resurrected/revived from after the death/lifelessness." Those who disbelieved will say: "That, this (is) except clear/evident magic/sorcery." (11:7)

4) WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH AND WHAT IS BETWEEN THEM BOTH IN SIX DAYS, then He aimed/tended to on the throne , the merciful, so ask/question with Him (about) an expert/experienced. (25:59)

5) ALLAH IS WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH, AND WHAT (IS) BETWEEN THEM IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on on the throne , none from a mediator and nor guardian/ally (is) for you from other than Him, so do you not mention/remember ? (32:4)

6) AND WE HAD CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH AND WHAT (IS) BETWEEN THEM IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, and exhaustion did not touch Us. (50:38)

7) HE IS WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed/tended to on the throne, He knows what enters/penetrates in the earth/Planet Earth, and what gets out/emerges from it, and what descends from the sky/space, and what ascends/climbs in it, and He is with you wherever you were, and Allah (is) with what you make/do seeing/ knowing. (57:4)

Compare to these Biblical Six “day” verses which where penned THOUSANDS of years BEFORE the Koran:

1) Genesis Chapter 1

2) Exo 20:11 FOR IN SIX DAYS JEHOVAH MADE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL WHICH IS IN THEM, and He rested on the seventh day; on account of this Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and sanctified it.

3) Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between Me and the sons of Israel; FOR IN SIX DAYS JEHOVAH MADE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

Please tell me….how does the Koran borrowing the Six –day creation theme from the Holy Bible help out that your Koran calls-out for Jesus to be God Almighty?

Thanks…

22

Greetings Kaleem,

Thanks for your comment…

[QUOTE]
OK which language did Jesus speak?
[/QUOTE]

Greek and Aramaic.

[QUOTE]
I am positive it was not Greek...so there goes your theory of God's Word. Also, the book of revelation was written 150-200 years after Jesus was gone... so please come up with something else.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for confirming that the Book of Revelation was written HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the Koran came onto the scene….

Thanks…

23

ok APple now we are talking :-d

First as you yourself has confirmed that Quran holds Gospel in high regards and claims it to be the word of God. Now if creation of Heaven in six days is a UNIVERSAL FACT, then Quran must confirm it. And it did as you just said above.

Now coming to your point that quran copied from bible, my dear look at the 'week-end concpet' in Bible:-p. God rested? ha?

while quran says and i quote you on this:

'then He aimed to/sat on/straightened on the throne/royal bed/palace"

so here: Bible got corrupted there. And Quran disagrees to that text, it did not copy it. Quran corrected it.

Take Care.

24

Also, Apple Jesus did not speak Greek. Please confirm your facts before spreading lies like the website you have in your signature.
What is there to confirm, Book of revelation was of course written before Quran, however, was changed, added to, subtracted from and was written almost 200 yeras after Jesus was gone. How did the keep "so called God's Word" the same all those yeras, when jesus did not even speak that language.
manipulated by people to suit their needs. It is no longer word of God. Only True word of God is Quran and Quran alone.

Also, you are yet to answer my question regarding the Aramaic language use of word "Father".

25

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your comments…

[QUOTE]
First as you yourself has confirmed that Quran holds Gospel in high regards and claims it to be the word of God. Now if creation of Heaven in six days is a UNIVERSAL FACT, then Quran must confirm it. And it did as you just said above.
[/QUOTE]

I used the word “Borrow”…and this was out of politeness.

The Koran does NOT confirm, it borrows…

[QUOTE]
Now coming to your point that quran copied from bible, my dear look at the 'week-end concpet' in Bible:-p. God rested? ha?
[/QUOTE]

Well…it appears that this is straight out of the French surgeons book, does it not? What a surprise…

Please tell me the Hebrew word translated as “rest” in English. Can you do this?

"while quran says and i quote you on this:

'then He aimed to/sat on/straightened on the throne/royal bed/palace"

so here: Bible got corrupted there. And Quran disagrees to that text, it did not copy it. Quran corrected it."

Hmmm…and you can prove your assertion?

Better yet….let’s go with your “Koranic confirmation” theory. Please tell me how this would relate to allah latching onto the “First & Last” deity of Jesus.

Can I conclude that the Koran is affirming that Jesus is God?

By your reasoning…I can!

Thanks…

26

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *
I used the word “Borrow”…and this was out of politeness.

The Koran does NOT confirm, it borrows…

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *

In fact, the Koran only has good things to state regarding the Holy Bible.
[/QUOTE]

ha:D

and yeah long live maurice Bucaile :-p he did give a point and you can't deny it ;-)

27

61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

28

Greetings Kaleem,

Thanks for your comment…

[QUOTE]
Also, Apple Jesus did not speak Greek. Please confirm your facts before spreading lies like the website you have in your signature.
[/QUOTE]

Your assertion…your proof…

[QUOTE]
What is there to confirm, Book of revelation was of course written before Quran,
[/QUOTE]

Correct.

[QUOTE]
however, was changed, added to, subtracted from and was written almost 200 yeras after Jesus was gone. How did the keep "so called God's Word" the same all those yeras, when jesus did not even speak that language.manipulated by people to suit their needs. It is no longer word of God. Only True word of God is Quran and Quran alone.
[/QUOTE]

Now this is most interesting since the Book of Revelation was utilized by the Koranic authors (in its entirety) in the construction of the Koran.

To debase the Book of Revelation is to debase your Koran.

Surely you know that…

Also, you are yet to answer my question regarding the Aramaic language use of word "Father".
I use the Greek from the Book of Revelation for my comparisons.
What part of this are you missing?

Thanks…

29

Apple.. we do not allow external links in signatures. Please remove the link from your signature. Thanks.

Secondly… you are free to have your views. However, keep in mind that here on GUPSHUPthe basic rule is that all participants should make sure they do not post disrespectful messages. Some of your posts are on the borderline and may be deemed disrespectful to Islam. On the flip side, if you, or anyone, finds any posts disrespectful to your faith, feel free to point them out, via PM, to me. At this point, I am leaving a wider lattitude so you folks can make your point. However, please read the rules of the Religion forum carefully by clicking here](http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showrules.php?s=&forumid=20) before posting any further.

30

This is off topic.

I haven't really noticed disrespectful messages. Disagreement Yes.

I picture God perhaps being pleased because the debate is about him. His people are thinking about him whether in agreement or not.

I think debate leads one to study religion and think of God more often and I imagine that might be pleasing to God.

Does that make sense?

Also. I think the earliest found gospel fragments are in written in Greek.

31

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
Also, Apple Jesus did not speak Greek.
[/QUOTE]

It is a fact that there were numerous Greek speaking Jews in palestine at the time. It even later caused some problems between them and the Aramaic Jews.

Jesus not only could speak Aramaic and Greek but most probably Latin as well as it was the language he was adressed in by Pilate. Romans ruled the country at the time and therefor most everyone that wanted to do something had to have an understanding of the language.

[quote]
originally posted by Kaleem:
What is there to confirm, Book of revelation was of course written before Quran, however, was changed, added to, subtracted from and was written almost 200 yeras after Jesus was gone.
[/quote]

The Prophet Muhammad and the Quran does not state that the Book of Revelations was changed. Please provide proof/quote to the fact if I'm wrong.

The Book of Revelation was written by the apostle John that lived with Jesus Christ and therefor his book could not have been written 200 years after Christ since that would make John more than 230 years old (unless of you want to believe that). most people date the book to be written between 70 to 95 years after Christ.

To Apple: Peace be with you and welcome to this forum.

32

OK, so it was written 90 yeras after he was removed from the earth. Tell me how is it that he managed to keep everything straightin his head for those years... Are you sure that everything that was written was spoken by Jesus?
Oldman and Apple, still waiting on your answer regarding the Aramaic word "Father"?

33

Now this is most interesting since the Book of Revelation was utilized by the Koranic authors (in its entirety) in the construction of the Koran

Apple, please refrain from sreading further lies. Bible or any version of this so called book of God was not used by Quran. Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad :saw: as it is. What was taught by Jesus might be in Islam, but that does not make Quran a copy of Bible. Islam completed all religions, Quran completed all books of Allah.
I am being nice to you so far, but if you continue to post such baseless accusations, you have another thing coming.

Faisal, please not this guy’s continous badgering of Quran and Islam.

34

Differences of opinions do not make them lies. While you may disagree with his opinions, they are not ‘baseless accusations’.

35

Apple, I can not understand why you are ignoring some of the questions of the posters and repeating yourself. If you want to debate then do it like a man. answer each n every question asked to you if you really want to have an answer of your question. otheriwse its so obvious you are here just to get us mad by your propoganda.

36

okay, now comming to your question. Lets suppose for an instance that Jesus(as) is actually God (Nauzbillah).

So?

have you ever thought what qualifies to be a God? What attributes God must have to be a God? Think on it. God requires to be powerful, sensible and just.

what type of God is that who got crusified? I must add what a poor god! You say your God has crusified himself for your sake. hunh? what kind of secrifice is that? what’s the sense behind it? now u can do what ever u can because god already has made u pure by crusification. now you all will be forgiven regardless of your character. well thats not what you call justice! now take a look at Islam without any biased attitude. Allah has 99 wellknown and limitless not-very-known attributes and He is a perfect exapmle of each and evey attribute.

Inshort, Please read the following verses from Holy Quran.

Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah

  1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

  2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

**3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; **

  1. And there is none like unto Him.

As you can see its a clear cut denial of ur trinity and so does your statement. Now Please dont put Quran pak to support your very own false judgement.

Allah wanted to tell us that He can create life thru the ways beyond the comprehention of our minds. He created Adam (as) without both of his parents, created Eve(as) without mother and created Jessus (as) without father. n thats it. He’s nothing more than a priviliged human being Like other Prophets. bedise that all other Prophets always wished to be the follower of Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (PBUM) and only Jesus(as) is that lucky. And He will offer his prayers behind ‘Ammam Mehdi’ (as) a follower of Hazzrat Muhammad (PBUM).

Now regarding Quran Pak as inspired from Bible, well we dont need any debate on it. tell mew how many different bibles available in market?
and how many differnt versions of Quran Pak are available?

well the truth is that one who created this universe is taking care of the Book which completed His message. May Allah open up our eyes n give us the wisdom to see the truth.

PS: check this thread Amazing Quran or Google a little for the scientific research of Quran and you will know why it has to be a direct message by the Creator of the whole universe.

37

Greetings The Old Man,

Thanks for your informed reply…

I appreciate it.

Thanks also for your warm welome…

Take care…

38

Greetings Kaleem,

Thanks for your replies…

[QUOTE]
OK, so it was written 90 yeras after he was removed from the earth. Tell me how is it that he managed to keep everything straightin his head for those years... Are you sure that everything that was written was spoken by Jesus?
[/QUOTE]

Consult the Koran if you are in doubt…

[QUOTE]
Oldman and Apple, still waiting on your answer regarding the Aramaic word "Father"?
[/QUOTE]

And we are still awaiting your concession that the Book of Revelation is a Greek Book.

We have little regard for website rhetoric...

[QUOTE]
Apple, please refrain from sreading further lies. Bible or any version of this so called book of God was not used by Quran. Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad as it is. What was taught by Jesus might be in Islam, but that does not make Quran a copy of Bible. Islam completed all religions, Quran completed all books of Allah.
[/QUOTE]

Calling a person a liar is not very Muslim of you, now is it?

Especially since you have not (or will not) bothered to verify what I posted.

[QUOTE]
I am being nice to you so far, but if you continue to post such baseless accusations, you have another thing coming.
[/QUOTE]

So…if calling me a liar does not work, now a threat will?

Thanks…

39

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jhappi: *
so that's your point :-)

what if I give you just one example from quran which contradicts bible, will it be enough proof for you that Quran is not a copy of bible. The only thing is that whatever Gospel says in reality, Quran must conform with it since God and the facts can't be changed.

My brother, you have not read Quran for sure because if you would have, you may have known how many times Quran says that Gospel and Torah were the True words of God, but changed by humans.

Tell me how many Bible were there?
[/QUOTE]

i agree

apple - please read the Quran yourself first and actually TRY to understand it ... then come back and give us these false accusations.

40

Greetings chodhry,

Thanks for your kind words…

[QUOTE]
Apple, I can not understand why you are ignoring some of the questions of the posters and repeating yourself. If you want to debate then do it like a man. answer each n every question asked to you if you really want to have an answer of your question. otheriwse its so obvious you are here just to get us mad by your propoganda.
[/QUOTE]

Pose your question…

[QUOTE]
okay, now comming to your question. Lets suppose for an instance that Jesus(as) is actually God (Nauzbillah).
[/QUOTE]

Done.

[QUOTE]
So?have you ever thought what qualifies to be a God? What attributes God must have to be a God? Think on it. God requires to be powerful, sensible and just.
[/QUOTE]

According to you, or the Koran?

[QUOTE]
what type of God is that who got crusified? I must add what a poor god! You say your God has crusified himself for your sake. hunh? what kind of secrifice is that? what's the sense behind it? now u can do what ever u can because god already has made u pure by crusification. now you all will be forgiven regardless of your character. well thats not what you call justice! now take a look at Islam without any biased attitude. Allah has 99 wellknown and limitless not-very-known attributes and He is a perfect exapmle of each and evey attribute.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting…as the Koran also clearly proclaims not only that Jesus is God, but that He was crucified and that all men are “created” through Him.

'Inshort, Please read the following verses from Holy Quran.

Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

  1. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

  2. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

  3. And there is none like unto Him.'

Sounds like Biblical material to me…

[QUOTE]
As you can see its a clear cut denial of ur trinity and so does your statement. Now Please dont put Quran pak to support your very own false judgement.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting…as the Koran also clearly proclaims the Uniplural nature of the Biblical God…

[QUOTE]
Allah wanted to tell us that He can create life thru the ways beyond the comprehention of our minds. He created Adam (as) without both of his parents, created Eve(as) without mother and created Jessus (as) without father. n thats it. He's nothing more than a priviliged human being Like other Prophets. bedise that all other Prophets always wished to be the follower of Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (PBUM) and only Jesus(as) is that lucky. And He will offer his prayers behind 'Ammam Mehdi' (as) a follower of Hazzrat Muhammad (PBUM).
[/QUOTE]

Think so?

Please support your assertion that Jesus was “created” like Adam…Thanks…

[QUOTE]
Now regarding Quran Pak as inspired from Bible, well we dont need any debate on it. tell mew how many different bibles available in market?
[/QUOTE]

One.

[QUOTE]
and how many differnt versions of Quran Pak are available?
[/QUOTE]

Which version do you read?

[QUOTE]
well the truth is that one who created this universe is taking care of the Book which completed His message. May Allah open up our eyes n give us the wisdom to see the truth.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
PS: check this thread Amazing Quran or Google a little for the scientific research of Quran and you will know why it has to be a direct message by the Creator of the whole universe.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice….but, I prefer to go to the source of the Koran, the Holy Bible…

Thanks…