Discussion on Quran and status of Jesus [Edited]

Apple · April 12, 2004, 12:32am

First and Last, Koran: (57:1-4)

First and Last, Book of Revelation: (1:9-20, 2:7-8, 22:12-21)

First and Last, Koran

Praised/glorified to Allah what is in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, and He is the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious. For Him (is) the skies’/space’s and the earth’s/Planet Earth’s ownership/kingdom, He revives/makes alive, and He makes die, and He is on every thing capable/able. He is the first/beginning and the last/end, and the apparent/visible, and the hidden/inside, and He is with every thing knowledgeable. He is who created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth in six days/times, then He aimed/tended to on the throne, He knows what enters/penetrates in the earth/Planet Earth, and what gets out/emerges from it, and what descends from the sky/space, and what ascends/climbs in it, and He is with you wherever you were, and Allah (is) with what you make/do seeing/ knowing. (57:1-4)

First and Last, Book of Revelation

I, even your brother John, and co-sharer in the affliction, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, came to be in the island being called Patmos because of the Word of God, and because of the witness of Jesus Christ. I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last; also, What you see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies of Asia: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, having been clothed to the feet, and having been girded with a golden girdle at the breasts. And the hairs of His head were white as white wool, as snow, and His eyes as a flame of fire; and His feet like burnished brass having been fired in a furnace; and His voice as a sound of many waters; and having in His right hand seven stars; and a sharp, two-edged sword proceeding out of His mouth, and His face shining as the sun in its power. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death. Write what things you saw, and what things are, and what things are about to occur after these things. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw on My right, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies, and the seven lampstands you saw are seven assemblies. (Rev 1:9-20)

The one who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To the one overcoming, I will give to him to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. And to the angel of the assembly of Smyrna, write: These things says the First and the Last, Who became dead, and lived: (Rev 2:7-8)

And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city. But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving a lie, and making it. I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely. For I testify together with everyone hearing the Words of the prophecy of this Book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add upon him the plagues having been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and of the things having been written in this Book. The One testifying these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen. Yes, come, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen. (Rev 22:12-21)

Summary:

Who is the First & the Last?..Revelation, Jesus…Koran, Allah
Notice that Jesus States that He is the “First & the Last” THREE separate times BEFORE integrating it in THREE different ways in 22:13
Allah has aligned his “deity” with that of Jesus
The Koran is stating that Jesus is God

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 12:49am

Did you read it yourself before copy pasting it?

There is no mention of Jesus in 57: 1-4. It only talks about Allah and if you read Quran in context, it is clear that Quran denies Jesus being God.

However, your next part of biblical text which was written after hundreds of years say what you wanted to say and what the author of the text wanted to tell people, not what God had revealed to Jesus.

Apple · April 12, 2004, 1:02am

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your comments…

[QUOTE]
Did you read it yourself before copy pasting it?
[/QUOTE]

Since it’s my material, the answer would have to be yes…

[QUOTE]
There is no mention of Jesus in 57: 1-4. It only talks about Allah and if you read Quran in context, it is clear that Quran denies Jesus being God.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus called Himself the “First & Last” hundreds of years BEFORE the authors of the Koran decided that they wanted their god to also wear this deity crown.

Furthermore, I have read the entire Koran in context, and it clearly proclaims the deity of Jesus time and again…

So….what’s the issue…?

[QUOTE]
However, your next part of biblical text which was written after hundreds of years say what you wanted to say and what the author of the text wanted to tell people, not what God had revealed to Jesus.
[/QUOTE]

Fact of the matter is that the Book of Revelation stated this HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the Koran was even written…

Thanks…

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 1:31am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *

Furthermore, I have read the entire Koran in context, and it clearly proclaims the deity of Jesus time and again…

So….what’s the issue…?

[/QUOTE]
the issue is that i need references from Quran where diety of jesus is proclaimed! simple.

Apple · April 12, 2004, 1:35am

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your reply…

[QUOTE]
the issue is that i need references from Quran where diety of jesus is proclaimed! simple.
[/QUOTE]

Why not address the “First & Last” one that I already posted?

This one speaks for itself does it not?

Is allah the First & the Last?

Yes…or…no?

Thanks…

[QUOTE]
the issue is that i need references from Quran where diety of jesus is proclaimed! simple.
[/QUOTE]

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 1:47am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *
Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your reply…

Why not address the “First & Last” one that I already posted?

This one speaks for itself does it not?

Is allah the First & the Last?

Yes…or…no?

Thanks…

[/QUOTE]
YEs ! and in gospel it was the same.. but later 104 gospels came out from many different writers (Key word: "writers" God's revelations authored by humans) and then Jesus was made God instead of prophet of God!

Apple · April 12, 2004, 1:53am

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your comments…

[QUOTE]
YEs ! and in gospel it was the same.. but later 104 gospels came out from many different writers (Key word: "writers" God's reveled authored by humans) and then Jesus was made God instead of prophet of God!
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the admission that allah was called the “First & Last”, just as Jesus called Himself in the Book of Revelation, from HUNDREDS of years prior.

Jesus is God not only in the Holy Bible, but Jesus is God in the Koran as well…

Allah would not align his “deity” with anything other that divinity, now would he?

Thanks…

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 1:56am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *

Thanks for the admission that allah was called the “First & Last”, just as Jesus called Himself in the Book of Revelation, from HUNDREDS of years prior.

Jesus is God not only in the Holy Bible, but Jesus is God in the Koran as well…

Allah would not align his “deity” with anything other that divinity, now would he?

Thanks…
[/QUOTE]
come again.. hello? Read again please.

Holy Bible is written by people and they changed the words of God. Now give me the reference from Quran where Jesus is called God there.. CAN YOU???

Apple · April 12, 2004, 2:03am

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for the reply…

[QUOTE]
come again.. hello? Read again please.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Holy Bible is written by people and they changed the words of God.
[/QUOTE]

Please show your evidence for this assertion….

[QUOTE]
Now give me the reference from Quran where Jesus is called God there.. CAN YOU???
[/QUOTE]

Sure, here it is once more for you…

First and Last, Koran

Praised/glorified to Allah what is in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, and He is the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious. For Him (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's ownership/kingdom, He revives/makes alive, and He makes die, and He is on every thing capable/able. He is the first/beginning and the last/end, and the apparent/visible, and the hidden/inside, and He is with every thing knowledgeable. He is who created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth in six days/times, then He aimed/tended to on the throne, He knows what enters/penetrates in the earth/Planet Earth, and what gets out/emerges from it, and what descends from the sky/space, and what ascends/climbs in it, and He is with you wherever you were, and Allah (is) with what you make/do seeing/ knowing. (57:1-4)

Thanks…

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 2:06am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *
Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for the reply…

Please show your evidence for this assertion….

Sure, here it is once more for you…

First and Last, Koran

Praised/glorified to Allah what is in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, and He is the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious. For Him (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's ownership/kingdom, He revives/makes alive, and He makes die, and He is on every thing capable/able. He is the first/beginning and the last/end, and the apparent/visible, and the hidden/inside, and He is with every thing knowledgeable. He is who created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth in six days/times, then He aimed/tended to on the throne, He knows what enters/penetrates in the earth/Planet Earth, and what gets out/emerges from it, and what descends from the sky/space, and what ascends/climbs in it, and He is with you wherever you were, and Allah (is) with what you make/do seeing/ knowing. (57:1-4)

Thanks…
[/QUOTE]

my evidence? ask your own historians about the history of bible :-p

and as for your reference, what the???????? hello? it talks about ALLAH **Not **Jesus. You can not take this ayaats and then take your bible and mold the meaning of Quran according to your bible. LOL

Apple · April 12, 2004, 2:15am

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for the reply…

[QUOTE]
my evidence? ask your own historians about the history of bible :-p
[/QUOTE]

Your assertion…your proof…

[QUOTE]
and as for your reference, what the???????? hello? it talks about ALLAH Not Jesus.
[/QUOTE]

It talks about allah taking the same 100% verbatim deity ascribed unto Jesus from Centuries prior to the Koran even being written.

Again…would allah align his “deity” with anything other than true divinity?

[QUOTE]
You can not take this ayaats and then take your bible and mold the meaning of Quran according to your bible. LOL
[/QUOTE]

On the contrary….I am showing you but one example of where the Koran borrows Biblical material and attempts to transplant this material onto a newly created god. The god of the Koran…

Thanks…

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 2:48am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *
Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for the reply…

Your assertion…your proof…

It talks about allah taking the same 100% verbatim deity ascribed unto Jesus from Centuries prior to the Koran even being written.

Again…would allah align his “deity” with anything other than true divinity?

On the contrary….I am showing you but one example of where the Koran borrows Biblical material and attempts to transplant this material onto a newly created god. The god of the Koran…

Thanks…
[/QUOTE]
Ok let me exlain you completely in case you are not aware of Muslim faith:

A muslim can not be a muslim if he does not believe in previous prophets and books.

A muslim beleives that Message of God was same from all His prophets.

A muslim beleives that all other divine text got corrupted during the passage of time (including Gospel) due to the intervention of human intentions.

Therefore, whatever you are saying about the attributes of Jesus in Bible were actually the attributes of Allah and gospels' writer got confused and made Jesus a God.

So when you see Quran talking about First and Last, Islamic belief is that Gospel, Torah and other divine books had talked about it already and it refers to ALLAH alone not Jesus, and Quran is just the confirmation of the previous message.

Take Care.

Apple · April 12, 2004, 3:05am

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your reply…

"Ok let me exlain you completely in case you are not aware of Muslim faith:

A muslim can not be a muslim if he does not believe in previous prophets and books.

A muslim beleives that Message of God was same from all His prophets.

A muslim beleives that all other divine text got corrupted during the passage of time (including Gospel) due to the intervention of human intentions."

That is what you are told to believe.

Now…are you prepared to back up all that rhetoric?

[QUOTE]
Therefore, whatever you are saying about the attributes of Jesus in Bible were actually the attributes of Allah and gospels' writer got confused and made Jesus a God.
[/QUOTE]

Now, this would be a trick that even David Copperfield would be proud of.

Unfortunately, you have absolutely NO evidence for the pipe - dream that you just presented. Especially since there are extant copies of the Book of Revelation that existed centuries before the oldest extant copy of the Koran.

The Koran came AFTER the Holy Bible.

The Koran copied the Holy Bible.

This is undeniable.

[QUOTE]
So when you see Quran talking about First and Last, Islamic belief is that Gospel, Torah and other divine books had talked about it already and it refers to ALLAH alone not Jesus, and Quran is just the confirmation of the previous message.
[/QUOTE]

It appears that you are confused.

Let me clarify the matter for you…

First, let’s establish who is God.

Let’s review the OT:

Isa 41:4 Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I JEHOVAH AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST; I am He.

Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and there is no God except Me.

Isa 48:12 Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I AM THE FIRST; SURELY I AM THE LAST.

Summary of the First & Last in the OT:

1) Yahweh specifically states that He is the First & the Last
2) This is stated not once, not twice, but three times.
3) This provides us a clue to the Triune nature of Himself

Let’s review the NT:

Rev 1:11 saying, I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST; also, What you see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies of Asia: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST,

Rev 2:8 And to the angel of the assembly of Smyrna, write: These things says THE FIRST AND THE LAST, Who became dead, and lived:

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

Summary of the First & Last in the NT:

1) Jesus specifically states that He is the First & the Last
2) This is stated not once, not twice, but three times BEFORE stating it THREE ways in 22:13
3) This provides us a clue to the Triune nature of Jesus
4) 22:13 describes THREE ways of describing the SAME thing (why not just say it once and be done with it?)
5) This provides us a clue to Jesus being the ONE God
6) 2:8 tells us that the First & the Last became dead and lived, providing further evidence that Jesus is God

Let’s review the Koran:

Praised/glorified to Allah what is in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, and He is the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious. For Him (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's ownership/kingdom, He revives/makes alive, and He makes die, and He is on every thing capable/able. HE IS THE FIRST/BEGINNING AND THE LAST/END, and the apparent/visible, and the hidden/inside, and He is with every thing knowledgeable. He is who created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth in six days/times, then He aimed/tended to on the throne, He knows what enters/penetrates in the earth/Planet Earth, and what gets out/emerges from it, and what descends from the sky/space, and what ascends/climbs in it, and He is with you wherever you were, and Allah (is) with what you make/do seeing/ knowing. (57:1-4)

Summary of the First & Last in the Koran:

1) Allah does NOT state that he is the First & the Last
2) Someone else states this of him
3) It is stated only once

Integrated Summary of the First & the Last as contained in the OT, NT & Koran:

1) Yahweh specifically states that He is the First & the Last
2) This is stated not once, not twice, but three times.
3) This provides us a clue to the Triune nature of Himself
4) Jesus specifically states that He is the First & the Last
5) This is stated not once, not twice, but three times BEFORE stating it THREE ways in 22:13
6) This provides us a clue to the Triune nature of Jesus
7) 22:13 describes THREE ways of describing the SAME thing (why not just say it once and be done with it?)
8) This provides us a clue to Jesus being the ONE God
9) 2:8 tells us that the First & the Last became dead and lived, providing further evidence that Jesus is God
10) Allah does NOT state that he is the First & the Last
11) Someone else states this of him
12) It is stated only once

Conclusion:

1) Yahweh said that He is the First & the Last
2) Jesus said that He is the First & the Last
3) Allah had someone say that he is the First & the Last
4) Yahweh = Jesus
5) Jesus is God
6) Jesus clearly proclaimed to be God
7) Allah cannot even make the claim himself, but allows the authors of the Koran to make this claim for him

So….YES, Jesus is God.

Jesus stated “I am God”.

Furthermore, the Koran confirms the deity of Jesus…

The Koran copied the Holy Bible.

Period.

Thanks…

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 3:10am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *
The Koran copied the Holy Bible.

[/QUOTE]
so that's your point :-)

what if I give you just one example from quran which contradicts bible, will it be enough proof for you that Quran is not a copy of bible. The only thing is that whatever Gospel says in reality, Quran must conform with it since God and the facts can't be changed.

My brother, you have not read Quran for sure because if you would have, you may have known how many times Quran says that Gospel and Torah were the True words of God, but changed by humans.

Tell me how many Bible were there?

Apple · April 12, 2004, 3:44am

Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your reply…

[QUOTE]
so that's your point :-)
[/QUOTE]

You just proved my point.

The god of the Koran is riding on the deity coattails of Jesus.

Furthermore, you unable to account for this.

[QUOTE]
what if I give you just one example from quran which contradicts bible, will it be enough proof for you that Quran is not a copy of bible. The only thing is that whatever Gospel says in reality, Quran must conform with it since God and the facts can't be changed.
[/QUOTE]

How about you acknowledging that the god of the Koran borrowed the deity ascribed unto Jesus HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the Koran was ever written?

[QUOTE]
My brother, you have not read Quran for sure because if you would have, you may have known how many times Quran says that Gospel and Torah were the True words of God, but changed by humans.
[/QUOTE]

I have read the Koran front to back and have studied it in depth more than most Muslims.

In fact, the Koran only has good things to state regarding the Holy Bible.

I challenge you to show me anywhere in the Koran where it even states that the written word of God (the Holy Bible) was ever altered.

This should be easy for you…right?

[QUOTE]
Tell me how many Bible were there?
[/QUOTE]

One.

Which Koran do you believe in?

Thanks....

Kaleem · April 12, 2004, 3:55am

Apple, Which version of Bible did Jesus call himself First and Last? Please elaborate? Was it the Hebrew version, Aramic, or English? Answer this question and we will continue the debate.

Kaleem · April 12, 2004, 3:59am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Apple: *
Greetings jhappi,

Thanks for your reply…

You just proved my point.

The god of the Koran is riding on the deity coattails of Jesus.

Furthermore, you unable to account for this.

How about you acknowledging that the god of the Koran borrowed the deity ascribed unto Jesus HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the Koran was ever written?

I have read the Koran front to back and have studied it in depth more than most Muslims.

In fact, the Koran only has good things to state regarding the Holy Bible.

I challenge you to show me anywhere in the Koran where it even states that the written word of God (the Holy Bible) was ever altered.

This should be easy for you…right?

One.

Which Koran do you believe in?

Thanks....
[/QUOTE]

Apple, Who worte the bible and when ? Couple of hundred years after Jesus was taken from this earth, and you want us to believe that it is the true word of God. Do me a favor and do some research on word "father" in Aramic and Hebrew. Come bakc and tell us if it is the same word that is used to address someone with respect.

Now Kapeesh.

jhappi · April 12, 2004, 3:59am

Kaleem: If you ask me I will prefer to read Gospel of Barnabas :-p.

Apple: can you please give me a reference of the whole verse from your bible where it is stated that God created this universe in 6 days. Tell me the whole thing about that. Appreciated.

Apple · April 12, 2004, 4:08am

Greetings Kaleem,

Thanks for your comments…

[QUOTE]
Apple, Which version of Bible did Jesus call himself First and Last? Please elaborate? Was it the Hebrew version, Aramic, or English? Answer this question and we will continue the debate.
[/QUOTE]

This is to be found in the last Book of the Holy Bible, The Book of Revelation.

The Book of Revelation is written in Greek.

[QUOTE]
Apple, Who worte the bible and when ? Couple of hundred years after Jesus was taken from this earth, and you want us to believe that it is the true word of God. Do me a favor and do some research on word "father" in Aramic and Hebrew. Come bakc and tell us if it is the same word that is used to address someone with respect.
[/QUOTE]

It appears that you are encountering some confusion in your thinking.

The Book in question here is the Book of Revelation. It was NOT written in Aramaic or Hebrew. It was written in Greek.

Thanks…

Kaleem · April 12, 2004, 4:12am

OK which language did Jesus speak? I am positive it was not Greek...so there goes your theory of God's Word. Also, the book of revelation was written 150-200 years after Jesus was gone... so please come up with something else.