Discussion on mourning - Split from Azadari thread

the idea is mourning. you tend to fixate on the chest beating as if that was the object of azadari.

as for all Prophet being humans, that is true, but that does not dilute for one minute the fact that everytthing the Prophet did in his life was worth following. Thereby, feeling, expressing grief for those fallen before you is sunna.

if mourning is “forbidden” , not even the three days you graciously grant, then did the Prophet sin when he did mourn?

Didnt the prophet request people in medina to mourn for Hazrat Hamza?

As Mahomet and his followers reached the foot of the intervening ridge, the whole company at his command, fell into two lines, with the women ranged behind, and there they offered up prayer and thanksgiving to God 68. Drawing near to Medina, they passed the habitations of the Bani Al Ashal, whose females wailed loudly for their dead ; - “And Hamza!” - cried Mahomet, - “Alas, who is there to weep for him!” The wounded men here received permission

to go to their homes 69. The rest followed Mahomet to the great Mosque, which they readied in time for the sunset prayer 70. It was a night of mourning at Medina. A sense of insecurity still pervaded the city; the chief men again kept watch over the Prophet’s door, for fear of a night attack from the Coreish 71. Some of the wounded remained near the Mosque, and the fires kindled for them cast a fitful and lurid light around its courts. Mahomet slept heavily, and did not answer the call of Bilal for the second evening prayer. Shortly after he awoke, and walking forth, asked who it was that wailed so loudly near the Mosque. It was the women of Medina, who had heard his pathetic words regarding Hamza, and came to mourn for him. Mahoinet blessed them, and sent them to their homes. Ever after, it was the custom at Medina for the women, when they mourned for their dead, first to wail for Hamza 72.

And what part do the Ahlulbait play in a Muslim’s life? Is being part of Ahlulbait a promise from Allah :swt: that all a Muslim’s sins will be forgiven and he would be granted Jannah?

Does following an Ahlulbait frees a Muslim from his responsibilities?

When the Prophet himself used to ask forgiveness, what does following the Ahlulbait signify? Total freedom from A Muslim’s responsibilities?

**

Mûsa (Moses)

The Noble Qur’an - 28:16

He said: “My Lord! Verily, I have wronged myself, so forgive me.” Then He forgave him. Verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful.

The Noble Qur’an - 7:151

Mûsa (Moses) said: “O my Lord! Forgive me and my brother, and make us enter into Your Mercy, for you are the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.”

Nûh (Noah)

The Noble Qur’an - 11:47

Nûh (Noah) said: “O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers.”

The Noble Qur’an - 71:28

“My Lord! Forgive me, and my parents, and him who enters my home as a believer, and all the believing men and women. And to the Zâlimûn (polytheists, wrong-doers, and disbelievers, etc.) grant You no increase but destruction!”

Sulaimân (Solomon)

The Noble Qur’an - 38:34, 35

And, indeed We did try Sulaimân (Solomon) and We placed on his throne Jasadan (a devil, so he lost his kingdom for a while) but he did return (to his throne and kingdom by the Grace of Allâh and he did return) to Allâh with obedience and in repentance.

He said: “My Lord! Forgive me, and bestow upon me a kingdom such as shall not belong to any other after me: Verily, You are the Bestower.”
**

These are Prophets asking for forgiveness from the Lord…If Prophets have to ask for forgiveness from their Lord, what does following the Ahlulbait mean?

And if Nijasat was separated from the Ahlulbait, what about sperm? Isn’t sperm considered Najis alongwith some other bodily functions and secretions? What does that mean?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *

And if Nijasat was separated from the Ahlulbait, what about sperm? Isn't sperm considered Najis alongwith some other bodily functions and secretions? What does that mean?
[/QUOTE]

you would gain a better understanding of the shia perspective on masumiyat if you listened to the orations i've posted on the other thread (titled "majlis").

specifically from 5-9.

you dont need to listen to the masayib part..so each will be abt 40 minutes. good listening, and will help you appreciate the otherside's position much better.

Don't deny and ridicule Quran 33:33.

This is difference between you and us. We know that Ahlulbait were on the right path and if we follow their path we are sure to be on the right path as prescribed by Allah and his prophets pbuh.

33:33 ...**and establish regular Prayer , and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. **

Nobody is ridiculing quran, even in this aya the message is clear, do this and do this and Obey allah and his messnger, doing this will help us be pure.

the practise of recitign marsiyay and delivering them in the way they are delivered, physical matam with chains, as I have seen and with knives as I know it is done are among the thing that fascinate me. I have no intention of evert taking part in any of that, but would like to understand more about where they came about from, what is the basis for them etc.

I dont have an issue with mourning/remembrance but ritualized mourning which is a cultural, and not a religious thing has always been a question. Part of my family is shia and they have not given answers on this, but then they do not take part in physical matam themselves.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
the practise of recitign marsiyay and delivering them in the way they are delivered, physical matam with chains, as I have seen and with knives as I know it is done are among the thing that fascinate me. I have no intention of evert taking part in any of that, but would like to understand more about where they came about from, what is the basis for them etc.

I dont have an issue with mourning/remembrance but ritualized mourning which is a cultural, and not a religious thing has always been a question. Part of my family is shia and they have not given answers on this, but then they do not take part in physical matam themselves.
[/QUOTE]

Fraudia,

Ritualisation is the key. Those that ritualise the mourning stand to be accused of artificialising their sentiment. That is my principle objection too.

The basis for mourning is taken as love for the prophet and ahlebait, mawaddat bil qurba. This everyone agrees is integral to shia'ism. What clerics dont agree about is the manifestation of this love.

Certain ulema beleive one could utilise that blood in other ways, but stop short of calling for an end to it. Others support it and see it, depending on the aalim (in my experience) from
- public demonstration of support for Imam Hussain's cause in a very visible way
- not as a ritual but as an expression of grief, in the manner Hazrat Zainab struck her head against a post till it bled
- similar to the one incident in the Prophet's life that had someone harming himself motivated by love.. Owais Qarni breaking his teeth.

Now you or I may think that in their hearts, they are not motivated by love, but by ritual. But that is within their hearts, yes?

Likewise, namaz without purity of intention is worthless.. even gunah. I also know (suspect) many people who pray for reasons other than Allah. Is one to stop people from praying then ?

As far as I am concerned, since I know that I wouldnt be motivated out of love to strike myself with knives, I do not do it.

No clue on topic discussed.

Cannot cite why.

But know in my heart God is inside everyone.

And God knows.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PurelyAvgGirl: *
No clue on topic discussed.

[/QUOTE]

we're talking about the basis for observing muharram the way shias do..

[QUOTE]

Cannot cite why.

But know in my heart God is inside everyone.

And God knows.
[/QUOTE]

"O My servant! If you take one step toward Me, I am taking ten towards you."

-hadith qudsi (The hadith qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet divinely communicated to him... ie in Allah's voice..)

[Mini Me :33:33 …and establish regular Prayer , and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

Nobody is ridiculing quran, even in this aya the message is clear, do this and do this and Obey allah and his messnger, doing this will help us be pure.]

So what happened to the word Ahlul Bait from your translation???
This is a new height of translating Aya e Tatheer.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
As far as I am concerned, since I know that I wouldnt be motivated out of love to strike myself with knives, I do not do it.
[/QUOTE]

You and I are on the same page.

I myself and others I know in real life don't do zanjeer ka matam. :) I don't know any single person who does that.

But I have seen people do that, quite openly in pakistan, images from Iran would show you ppl using knives as well. I am just not into beating myself up or hurting myself physically to show sorrow.

well i dont do zanjeer zani myself but i wont say anything to the ppl who do it..thats their way of giving pursa to Bibi Fatima (a.s.) for Her Son (a.s)..who am i say its wrong..kiya pata kiska kiya amal Bibi (a.s) ko pasand aa jaye

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
well i dont do zanjeer zani myself but i wont say anything to the ppl who do it..thats their way of giving pursa to Bibi Fatima (a.s.) for Her Son (a.s)..who am i say its wrong..kiya pata kiska kiya amal Bibi (a.s) ko pasand aa jaye
kiya pata kiska kiya amal Bibi (a.s) ko pasand aa jaye

[/QUOTE]

Aml sirf Allah ke khatir.
Mera Jeena, mera marna, mere Ibadat
and every ritual for Allah(SWT).
When People say Ka_ _ r. You don't
like that.