[QUOTE] Originally posted by inuit: *
Brother first I would like to know that do you accept the concept of *Esal-e-Sawab or not. If you accept than answer would be from the middle and if you don’t the answer would be from start. If you have knowledge about certain things share with others, if you don’t have knowledge about certain things than ask those who know. There is no other way.
Simply wasting others times by asking known things again and again like Bni Israel is not good. I am sure you are not like that kind of person. I am waiting for your reply.
not only Imam Ali (AS) there are majalis for all Masoomeen. Plus on different topics. you can find a good database of Majalis in different languages at this website: www.imambargah.com
[/QUOTE]
INtuit ..i belive in the concept of esal e sawab......but dont like bench marking certain things for esal e sawab........
Originally posted by inuit: *
**Would you say that I hate those who value imam Hussain any other way as I value, like you expressed your feeling to for those people who value imam Hussain the other way but not like you. *
Its not a question of hate. Let everyone observe it the way they want to, do not expect people to mourn in a particular way.
*Moreover what if you say that I also value the enemies of Imam Hussain unlike the one who do matam for imam Hussain. *
although for some it may hold true. I dont see a connection between not doign matam and valuing the enemies of Imam Hussain.
*I don’t understand this theory. That those people who say that we love imam Hussain at the same time they show their kindheartedness to Yazid (Ln) and Abin e Ziyad (Ln). This is Munafqat. *
What theory, how did you assume that this is the case. I dont think anyone that I know is fond of yazid. shia, sunni, sufi or whatever.
To me there is no direct correaltion between not doing matam and supporting yazid. as far as his offspring goes..I have no view on it.. if there is a descendent of yazid now, I doubt he carries any blame for what his ancestor had done.
INtuit ..i belive in the concept of esal e sawab......but dont like bench marking certain things for esal e sawab........
i'll look at the website.....
[/QUOTE]
Thanks, you are right. Nobody can bench mark it. Opening a school, making a bridge, planting a tree, making a hospital, giving Sadkat o Kahirat etc. We can do any Ibidah for Esal e Sawab. Now we also have to look for sharaee daleel for each of it.
The sharaee daleel is anything for which u can expect a sawab from ALLAH taala can be done for esal…
right we agree here…
but again why bench marking for majalis…and for zuljinah .and for matam processions..and for jaloos…any daleel for them in app:saw: time ..or through masoomeens acts..that they did all this after the karbala incident…
Let them do the matam, they think its the right thing. Whats sad is that these ppl who raise such stupid questions as to why the Shia community mourns, I swear, throughout muharram, their blood is boiling, and their attention turns to the Shias and are finding ways to create rifts. I mean its just one month, we should respect it and let them do whatever they want. Summing up, I'd say this discussion is pointless.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Let them do the matam, they think its the right thing. Whats sad is that these ppl who raise such stupid questions as to why the Shia community mourns, I swear, throughout muharram, their blood is boiling, and their attention turns to the Shias and are finding ways to create rifts. I mean its just one month, we should respect it and let them do whatever they want. Summing up, I'd say this discussion is pointless.
[/QUOTE]
Spock .....
the questions are raised for actually understanding the rational behind these actions...mind u ..it is not some ones personal property to do what ever he want to in the name of islam.....every muslim has the right to understand what true islam is....and if some thing is made up then to ...tell others it is made up......
the questions are raised for actually understanding the rational behind these actions...mind u ..it is not some ones personal property to do what ever he want to in the name of islam.....every muslim has the right to understand what true islam is....and if some thing is made up then to ...tell others it is made up......
[/QUOTE]
So youre saying whatever they do is wrong? How do you even know? All this talk of 'right islam' you guys practice and all leads to bloodshed.
Dear bao bihari ! I appreciate that you want to understand things.
Now the question is, what do you mean by Bench Mark? If you are taking it as “Standard”. No body has made it. Majalis, Matam, has specific level of importance in Shareeah which is known to everybody especially the one who perform it. Every Act in Shareeah has specific level of importance. Like Furd, Sunnat, Mustahab, Maqrooh, Haram etc. There can be even more elaborate classification. I am making it simple. In Fiqh books these are explained in a better way like Wajib, Sunnat, Haram, Makrooh, Mubah, Ghasbi, Hadath, Hadath (Big), Hadath (Small), Muwalat, Tartib
Another thing must be in mind that the value of these acts also depends on the circumstances and conditions. One Act can be Mustahab in one situation and same act can be Furd in some other situation. To gauge these acts one must have certain level of understanding. For example: “If you are praying a mustahab prayer and your father calls you, do not break your prayer but if your mother calls, break the prayer.”
After understanding the importance of Karbala in Islam how much you value Majalis and Shabie & Taziya it depends on circumstances and conditions.
Imam Husain (A) regarded as the “leader of the martyrs” ? It is because he was not just the victim of an ambitious ruler. There is no doubt that the tragedy of Karbala, when ascribed to the killers, is a criminal and terrible act. However when ascribed to Imam Husain (A) himself, it represents a conscious confrontation and a courageous resistance for a sacred cause. The whole nation had failed to stand up to Yazid. They had succumbed to his will, and deviation and regression towards the pre-Islamic ways were increasing.
Passiveness by Imam Husain (A) in this situation would have meant the end of Islam as we know it. Thus Imam Husain (A) took upon himself the responsibility of the wholenation. The greatest tragedy was that one who stood up for the noblest of causes, the defence of Islam, was cut down in so cruel a manner.
It is for this reason that the sacrifice of Imam Husain (A) is commemorated annually throughout the Muslim world. Our sorrow never abates as we relive the tragedy. As Allama Iqbal says in his Baqiyat (in Urdu):
Ronay wala hoon Shaheed-e-Kerbala key gham men main,
Kya durey maqsad na dengey Saqiye Kausar mujhey
I am one who weeps at the plight of the Martyr of Kerbala
Won’t the reward be given to me by the Keeper of Kauser (Imam Ali (A))
The commemoration of Ashura on the 10th of Muharram every year serves to remind us of the sacrifices of the family of the Prophet (S). It also makes us aware of the people, then and now, who tried to destroy Islam and the family of the Prophet (S) and all that they stood for - as well as those who watched, listened and did nothing.
bhai …koi jan bojh kar kufr nahi karta…so jo bhe aap kar rahay hain wo aap kay nazdeek sahi hay..aur agar koi aap kay khayal main sahi nahi karta to ye aap ka fardh hay kay us ka rational sumjhain…either they convince u ..or you convince them…
Intuit ..thank you for the reply…i a happy that u understand that my aim here is not to critcize but to gain knowlegde…
bhai…just tell me in one sentence…what do u belive majalis are …fardh..wajib…?
majalis were not arranged in :saw: time…
so why insist on them…
with bench marking .i mean …fixing a certain protcol of doing things…like u do sham e ghareeban…and majalis and zuljinah…
if they are some ibadah..i want their prove from quran and sunnah …otherwise …i dont subscribe the idea of so much importence given to certain rituals only…
Since Majlis is not a single unit like Miswak so we cant employ one value to it. Some of its acts can be wajib, some sunnat, some mustahab some can be even Maqrooh or haram
You can insist for anything which is Jaaiz depending on circumstances, conditions and requirements of the time. It does not mean that other things are less important. Sometime a movement work for only single cause, like jihad, tableegh, khatm e naboowat. It does not mean that these religious movements don’t believe in other aspects of islam. However Majlis covers everything. Its like an institute from where you learn.
If you are doing it, you should be well organized, because Islam teaches us to be organized. There should be a specific topic for people to make their mind before coming to listen majlis, like tuwheed, Nabowat, Imamat, Karbala, Jihad, Sham e Ghareeban etc. isn’t it?
**
[3:169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah’s way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;
[3:170] Rejoicing in what Allah has given them out of His grace and they rejoice for the sake of those who, (being left) behind them, have not yet joined them, that they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.
[3:171] They rejoice on account of favor from Allah and (His) grace, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers.**
If Allah :swt: keeps them alive, is happy with them, the Shaheed rejoice at the favours bestowed upon them by Allah :swt:, the Shuhada rejoice at those they have left behind and not joined them yet, everywhere it’s happy happy, Allah :swt: is happy, the Shuhada are happy, the people and kin of Shuhada are happy, so why the mourning?
OK, here’s a question…If Hazrat Hussain and Hassan hadn’t died like they did, i.e. by the sword, instead they had died on the death bed, would you have still mourned them like this and given them the same honour as you do now?
Would you still hold Matams and Majalis for them had they died on the bed?
I think to me the person who dies on the bed should really be mourned for he is no Shaheed…He just died on the bed, nothing to be happy about, that’s something to mourn…But to mourn someone with whom Allah :swt: is happy, who himself is happy, whose kin are happy, doesn’t really fit the equation…
I never said majlis were right or wrong, did i? I never insisted on them either. To me, whoever wants to go to a majlis can do so, I wont bash his skull or slit his throat.
I will try to explain in a very simple way that why we do matam and majlis.
We carry taboot(shabee of Imam's a.s janaza) to show that if we had been there on ashura we would have carried the janaza of our imam a.s and would have burried him unlike 30,000 muslims including hafiz e Qurans who looted the taburakats( clothings etc) from the Imam a.s body after they shaeed him and cut off his head and left the body lying under the sun.
We carry Alam or the flag of Imam a.s to show that had we been there we would have carried the Imam's a.s flag after they shaheed his brother Hazrat Abbas a.s.
We do matam to show that had we been there we would have fought for Imam a.s against 30,000 muslim who forgot that they were fighting against somebody for whom Prophet pbuh said that Husain is from me and I am from Husain.
We do majlis not to remember what happened to Imam a.s because we will not forget, But we do it to make sure that people on yazeed l.a side don't forget what they did to Imam a.s. We will not let them forget and thats why they don't like majlis e Husain a.s.
When we do matam our every stroke on our chest is actually a slap on yazeedyat's face.
We cry, becuse we were not there to die for Imam e Muzloom a.s
Our position is that either you are with Imam e Muzloom a.s or you are against him, there is no other third way.
If you are with Imam e Muzloom then you must curse his enemies. And I mean All his enemies.
The Holy Prophet (P.) said: “Zaid took over the flag and was martyred.Then it was taken by Ja’far who was martyred as well. Then Abdullah bin Rawaha took the flag but he too was martyred and at that time the eyes of Allah’s Messenger were full of tears. (Narrated by Anas bin Malik,
Ref.: Sahih Al-Bukhari Arabic-English Vol.2 Pg.191, printed in 1984 at Kitab
Bhavan, New Delhi, India)
Point of information: Imam Hassan didnt die in battle. He was poisoned, died a painful death, and his funeral was showered with arrows.
The Holy Prophet (P.) said: “Zaid took over the flag and was martyred.Then it was taken by Ja’far who was martyred as well. Then Abdullah bin Rawaha took the flag but he too was martyred and at that time the eyes of Allah’s Messenger were full of tears. (Narrated by Anas bin Malik,
Ref.: Sahih Al-Bukhari Arabic-English Vol.2 Pg.191, printed in 1984 at Kitab
Bhavan, New Delhi, India)
Point of information: Imam Hassan didnt die in battle. He was poisoned, died a painful death, and his funeral was showered with arrows.
[/QUOTE]
The loss of someone close, no matter how great a death is always a cause for momentary grief, and even the Prophets succumbed to that grief...However to carry on a mourning for a Shaheed particularly for more than 1,400 years is not part of Islam in any way...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MAKRANI: *
Please don't ignore the reasons of our mourning as stated in my previous post.
[/QUOTE]
Whatever the reasons, a mourning is a mourning...And all those practices that you mention in your previous post, do they in any way subscribe to the teachings of Islam either through the Quran or Sunnah? If not then they are mere innovations and have no part in Islam...
The loss of someone close, no matter how great a death is always a cause for momentary grief, and even the Prophets succumbed to that grief...However to carry on a mourning for a Shaheed particularly for more than 1,400 years is not part of Islam in any way...
[/QUOTE]
That is your interpretation of it Lajawab.
The point is, there is precedence in the Prophet's conduct for feeling and manifestation of grief for shuhada.
I agree…Now show me where it is written that Holy Prophet :saw: beat his chest and mourned their death…True, he cried, a natural phenoma that all humans feel at a sense of loss and all Prophets were humans, but how for how long does one mourn?
According to the Quran and Sunnah, you don’t mourn someone for more than three days tops, and if the person happens to be a Shaheed, mourning is forbidden…
After Karbala Ahlulbait were the first one to mourn Imam e muzloom. It is therefore acording to the sunnah of Ahlulbait. Don't forget Prophet PBUH saying that hold on to Quran and my Ahlulbait and you will not go stray. Also according to Quran nijasat has been seperated from the Ahlulbait. Sin is a nijasat and Ahlulbait won't mourn if it was not allowed.
and like I said we mourn every day so people on yazid l.a side don't forget the karbala.
and Hassan