assalam oalikum
i was absent from the forum for 3 or so days and 2 of most important thread were closed…i posted some question in my post one of the post about the difference of shia and sunni quran and taqiyyah …no answer came…can some answer them now…plz only stick to what i have asked …on the credibilty of refrences…no dumb logics…
i again say that i m not againsnt any one but just want to get answered on some important quetions.............
salam
bhai
Is this month dedicated to slander shias?
Anyways
There isnt any difference in the Holy quran. We believe Holy Quran is complete.
Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn al-Husain Ibn Babwayh, known as "Shaykh Saduq" (309/919-381/991), wrote:
"Our belief is that the Quran which Allah revealed to His Prophet
Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn).And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally
accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he who asserts that we say
that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."
Shi'i reference: Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh
Saduq, English version, p77.
This is the ayat supportnig our belief in the completeness of Quran
"Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely
be its guardian (15:9)"
When Allah is the guardian of the Quran who are we to alter it.Do you think it's possible?
Any shia hadiths that might imply towards incompletenss of Quran should be rejected right away. However we do believe the arrangements of surahs of the Holy Quran are not in the right order.
What do you wanna know about Taqayyah? can you paste the questions here which you already posted?
Thanks
There is no such thing as Shia Quran or Sunni Quran. There is only 1 Quran for Muslims who believed in Allah SWT and Prophet Muhammad SAW
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sherrybaba: *
Any shia hadiths that might imply towards incompletenss of Quran should be rejected right away. However we do believe the arrangements of surahs of the Holy Quran are not in the right order.
[/QUOTE]
sherry yaar there is no shia hadith saying that Quran is incomplete..these wahabis like to spread false rumors..let them bark
Re: diffrence in shia and sunni quran
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
..........i posted some question in my post one of the post about the difference of shia and sunni quran and taqiyyah .......no answer came.......can some answer them now.............
salam
[/QUOTE]
Bihari babu if you would have bothered to read the post that was closed... Just open your eyes and you'll see your question was not unanswered.... Incase you over looked it ..
Here you go again.......
quote:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
3---about quran.......
i have given some refrences do check these refrences out.........i can open a new thread to prove that ur quran is different then ours....if u want to other wise these refrences r enough to prove that..........if u dont have thee books i have .............i m dead sure that i am right.......
4---- about taqiyyah and katmaan........
will provide these refrences tommorow dont have time tommorow...
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Insaniyat: *
Babu Bahi ... rahi nah woh dum teri soh teri... If people don't want to name their sons yazeed or Umar its their choice... there is no law written in the book if you hate someone you won't name your son... its a damm name .... stop cooking lame logics that dont mean anything.
Babu Bahi nazubillah are you trying to say like christians have different version of bible .. .we muslims too... brother thats what makes Quran most authentic... if you doubt on authenticity of Quran go and read a Quran from shia website and then on sunni website.. same 30 paras.. same number of surah's and same number of ayats... infact read it from any part of the world and it will be the same....if you are using some hadith it must be weak...noting like that preached by our Imam's either... how can you just make such an accusation on islam... i dont trust your sources man... its some anti shia propoganda you are reading which is just accusationss beause once you read Quran or compare .. its all same and will be the same till the day of Judgement..... anywayzz any feedback on accusations of forcination?
[/QUOTE]
Hope that clarifies things for you....
You can't read a reply to a post and you want us to believe if Mr Great Bihari didnt hear it the thing never happened.... i hope you know what I am refering it too.. Your reply to the post "And how can they call themselves Muslims"
As war has already started... People please pray for peace.
Calm down guys!
I think the bhiari bao is refering to the point he took from your book.
There are seventeen thousand Ayah in real Quran. (Al Shafi, Vol. No. 2, Page No. 616)
smooth-guy uptil now you should have realized that most Shias, unlike Sunnis do not hold their hadith books to be the absolutely truth.
if they find anything contradictory to the Qur'an their claim is that the hadith books can be rejected.. I wish the Sunnis learnt a thing or two from them in that respect.
To clarify on Shia's behalf.. they believe the Qur'an to be the same but claim that the order is not the one in which it was revealed. Most Sunnis acknowledge that the Qur'an was revealed in a different order than it is today so let's end this discussion for good.
and then again.. Sunnis who are accusing Shias of a changed Qur'an.. look at this:
Muslim Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, **and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it.* Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.*
PakistaniAbroad: Now find us the verses of stoning adulterers in the Qur'an or accept that Sunni Hadith Books claim Qur'an is incomplete.
PA, bao bihari and smooth guy are hafiz-e-Quran..they should be able to answer that for you..lets see
A muslim nation is under serious attack and all you're doing is debating who's Qur'aan is correct?
The issue doesn't even arise as there is only one Qur'aan and is personally guarded by Allah SWT.
End the discussion and at least do Dua for your fellow muslim brethrens.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
A muslim nation is under serious attack and all you're doing is debating who's Qur'aan is correct?
The issue doesn't even arise as there is only one Qur'aan and is personally guarded by Allah SWT.
End the discussion and at least do Dua for your fellow muslim brethrens.
[/QUOTE]
Exaclty... Only if bihari babu was smart enough to understand it ! ! !
He believes in books more then the authenticity of Quran.
I agree with you sholay. I will not post in this thread anymore for the sake of unity. However I just want to mention that the we sunni also think the same way about the hadith books. there are hadiths which cancel out the earlier ones because of the change in order by Allah. And some could be fabricated too.
Just for the clarification from Sunni's point of view:
By the way the Quran was compiled by dozens of Sahaba and specifically Ashabe Sufa. It is not just a compilation by Omer R.A or Usman R.A. The order of Surah was also based on majority's advice to keep it the way Prophet SAW used to recite during Salat. Not in the order they were revealed. If that second method was more appropriate then Prophet SAW must have recited it that way. Logically too, its sounds relevant when we read it, unlike the order of revelation which was purely based on the occassions and circumtances. The IJMAA of Sahaba was accurate and uncontroversial that Ali R.A himself and all other ahle-bait recited the Quran the same way. Subhanallah iss se barh kar Quran ki haqqaniyat kiya hogi.
And please this stance is not to appose anyone. But to keep the facts straight from Sunni's point of view.
wama alina illal balagh.
assalam oalikum
i this senario i also want to end this discussion but onlyjust let me get clearified onthis,,........if u guys dont believe in all those hadith(if they r)why dont u delete them
just clear my mind of what i read in ur books ..........
1- more then 200 riwayat in ur books say that either quran is incomplete or that it is changed..........
2-i gave refrence of asool ul kafi..............here is what u believe about asool ul kafi
writer of this book yaqoob kaleeni is more known to shias as saqa ul islam .........in fore word to this book it is written that this book was sent to imam ghaib in his gheebat e sughra and he (imam)said that "haza kaff shiaana'thats why the name kafi.............
3-this book has dedicated chaptersproving that quran is incomplete or not in its present form........
4-plz read thebook ........i cant give all the refrences they r tomany
5-ur translation of quran by farm ali also proves the same point at many places...
6-tafseer burhan also have same points...
7-i was given these books by my shia friends who thought that due to my seeking nature i might some day convert to shia .books i have refred to r authentic.....
plz read alihtijaj e tibrisee.
9 book FASUL UL KHITAB ............. states that it is proven that quran is changed ...wh ythis book is still published in quran .......
10-those who believe that quran is changed r thay kafirs.......
11-i also beleve that quran we read is the original quran that was read by sahabah and ahle bait.......i just want to hear ur point of view
12-TAQIYYAH ----
ur concept is that hadrat ali andall aimma did taqiyah ......
hadrat ali for 24 years during the khilafa of first 3 kalifa and during his khilfat also...................
i dont want to lenghthen this topic other wise i would have givenrefrences about katmaan and other concept (kalma)which i read in ur books and am still unanswered by ur ulema in pakistan..........i know many of them personally........
plz just give me specific answre sabout the refrences i qouted .......no wordy discussions just qoute that whether whta i have posted is in ur book or not and what u say about these quotes..
salam
MAY ALLAH BLES ALL MUSLIMS
To Moderator: Sorry that I am addressing the thread that was done with but there was very important issue that I think I must address. [My post will show the reason why I posted here.]
PA - I just came across this post of yours just by chance. It’s nice to see that you have posted this hadith here and you thought you were trying to prove something?
What if I say that this hadith is authentic? You are a self-confessed Quranist and yet you forgot the following Ayah of the Holy Quran:
‘None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things?’ (2: 106).
Do you know in the Study of Quran what Nasikh and Mansukh mean?
The hadith that you have quoted refers to Abrogated (Mansukh) verse. Please refer to the following link and you will find this hadith quoted there as well. * Please read the link in case you want to respond.
“The revelations from Allah as found in the Qur’an touch on a variety of subjects, among them beliefs, history, tales of the prophets, day of judgement, Paradise and Hell, and many others. Particularly important are the ahkam (legal rulings), because they prescribe the manner of legal relationships between people, as Allah wishes them to be observed.
Most of the Shias (I am including the ‘fringe sects’ within the Shia) believe that the Quran is complete without any addition or subtraction. But they have a historical problem that their books do literally contain hadiths from their Imams to the effect that Quran had been tampered with.
I have typed [verbatim] the following from a very nice and informative book written by an Iranian from Shia perspective.
– An Introduction to Shi’i Islam – Moojan Momen Yale University Press ISBN 0-300-03537-4
“The Quran is considered to be the Word of God revealed through Muhammad acting as God’s mouthpiece. The text of the Quran is in the recension compiled under the direction of the third Caliph, Uthman, is accepted by both Sunnis and Shi’is.
There is, however, considerable evidence that early Shi’a did not accept the standard text of Quran. Even as late as the time fo Shaykh al-Mufid, there was considerable discussion among the Shi’a as to what had been omitted from the Quran by the enemies of ‘Ali, although by that time there was consensus that nothing had been added. In other words, it was felt that although the standard text of the Quran represented God’s word with no human additions, part of the text extolling ‘Ali and pointing to his Imamate had been excised by his enemies.
Although most Shi’i eventually took the view that nothing had been omitted or added to the Quran, traces of the earlier view are enshrined among some of the hadith and are even reproduced in some later books. The following are some of the examples taken from the Bihar al- Anwar, the important collection of hadith made by the seventeenth century scholar, Muhammad Baqir Majlisi:
In the verse: ‘God has chosen Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of ‘Imran above all beings’ [Quran 3:33), the phrase ‘and the family of Muhammad is considered to have originally been present after the phrase ‘family of Imran.’ [Ref: al-Qummi, Tafsir, al Ayyashi, Tafsir, and other sources quoted in Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.23 pp. 222-8, No. 25, 26, 48,49.]
In the commentary upon the verse: ‘O would that I had not chosen such-such as a friend’ [Quran 25:28], the sixth Imam, Ja’far as-Sadiq, said: ‘In ‘Ali’s copy is: “O would that I have not chosen the second as a friend”, and this will appear one day. [Ref: Alam ibn Sayf al-Hilli, Kanz Jami’ al Fawa’id], quoted in Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar Vol. 24 pp 18-19 No.31] this is clear reference to Abu Bakr who is known as ath-Thani (the second) because he is the second in the cave during Muhammad’s flight from Mecca.
The phrase: ‘You are the best of people’ (khayr al-umma, Quran: 3:110) should be read: “You are the best of Imams [khayr al-a’immaa). [Ref: al-Ayyashi, Tafsir, quoted in Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 24,p 153, Nos. 1, 2.]
The Quran has been altered so that it has dropped the names of the successors (awsiyah i.e. Imams) and the hypocrites (munfiqun, i.e. the enemies of the Imams). [Ref: at-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, quoted in Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 24,pp 195-6, No.19]
A small minority of Shi’i have attempted to get much larger passages (and even whole suras) accepted as being missing portions of the Quran but without much success. [Ref: W. St. Clair Tisdall, ‘Shi’ah additions to the Koran, and Eliash, ‘The Shi’ite Quran’. For another example of material said to have been omitted from the Quran see the assertion that the names of six pseudo-prophets have been omitted from the Quran, al-Kashshi, Rijal, pp187, 195. ].”
As I have stated earlier that Shias do believe that Quran is complete without any addition or omission. Shias brothers/sisters will correct me if I am wrong that Shias do not agree with the present format of the Quran and have preference for the Quran compiled by hazarat Ali (ra) in Chorological order. This Quran does not exist now but is with Imam Mahdi (ra) and will bring this Quran when he appears.
I don’t want to start a lengthy debate. I just want to clear the false impression given by PA’s post. It even had got Sheraz CT excited.*
There is no such thing as shia or sunni quran... There is only one quran and thats it.
I quote from a rebuttal,
For those who have a slight familiarity with the books of both sects concerning ahadith (traditions), that is, the Sihah of the Sunnis and the various compilations of the traditions of the Shi’ah, it is manifestly clear that there are numerous traditions on the changes in the Holy Qur’an. Perhaps the traditions on this issue included within the books of the Sunnis are more in number than those of the Shi’ah. Nevertheless, those who have bandied about this issue out of spite and not as an objective and unbiased scientific and scholarly discussion, have always avoided the slightest reference to the traditions included in the books belonging to the Sunnis. They have only zoomed their cameras upon few weak narrations given in the books by Shi’ah. These are the narrations that are not acceptable to the Shi’ah `Ulama’ and based on these traditions, they have not issued their views and verdicts.
At this stage, before continuing the discussion, it is necessary to draw the attention of the readers to the fact that, from the viewpoint of Shi’ism, traditions related to the Holy Prophet (S) and Ahl al-Bayt (A) generally fall within one of the following four categories based on their degree of reliability:
Veracious (sahih)
Good (hasan )
Authentic (muwaththaq)
Weak [1] (da’if)
This classification has been based on the types of narrators and transmitters of the traditions. This means that if a tradition possesses a veracious isnad and if it is narrated by truthful and trustworthy narrators possessing all other necessary conditions, it is correct and reliable and can be used by the `ulama’ and the jurisprudents. Otherwise, in the absence of any one of the necessary requirements, the degree of the validity of the narration comes down until it becomes a “da’if” narration that cannot be considered and put to effect and that cannot serve as a document or proof for a view or verdict.
As the books on ahadith comprise all kinds of traditions, one of the prerequisites for every `alim (theologian) and faqih (jurisprudent) in making judgements and issuing verdicts is to identify and distinguish the traditions in terms of their verity and untruth.
Therefore, upon seeing a tradition, even in a worthy Shiite book, one cannot judge what the view of the Shi’ah on such and such a subject is.
Keeping this in view, it becomes evident that by seeing traditions in Shiite books, whether in the four principal books such as
al-Kafi [2],
al Tahdhib [3],
al-'Istibsar [4],
Man la yahduruhu al-faqih [5]
or in other books such as Wasa’il al-Shi`ah [6],
Bihar al-'anwar [7],
and others, one cannot ascribe to the Shiites a view and judgement based on their contents.
None of the few traditions concerning alterations in the Holy Qur’an included within the aforesaid books possesses a veracious isnad; therefore, the Shiite ulama' have not given attention to them. Similar traditions existing in authentic Sunni books have also been disregarded by the Sunni ulama’. Some of these traditions have been included in the following sources:
Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. V, p. 35; vol. VI, pp. 211, 221.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html#006.061.514
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.416
Sahih Muslim, vol. II, p. 736; vol. III, p. 100; vol. IV, pp. 167-168.
Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol. V, pp. 131-133; vol. VI, p. 55; vol. VI, pp. 449-451.
For more information in this field, researchers can refer to the books such as al-'Itqan and al-Durr al-manthur both by al-Suyuti, al Masahif by Abu Dawud, Ruh al-ma`ani by al-'Alusi, and others.
In any case, such traditions in Shi’ah and Sunni books have not been used by the `ulama’ of Islam and no attention has been paid to them.
edit: added two citations from bukhari sharif that i found questionable.
Furthermore, I can cite existing copies of compiled by our imams, whom we hold above any narrator you can cite, kept in museums etc. they are the same Quran as yours.
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Quran/History/Old_Manuscripts.htm
Jazakallah janab ibn siddq for clearing things.....
SHia-sunni quran.......may be we should leave it for now....i take ur word ravage.....jazakallah
Brother Ravage Thank you for your reply. I did go through the links you provided.
To my horror the author of the article (Muhammad Baqir Ansari @ http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/misconceptions/misconceptions.htm) has made a horrendous mistake in the links you have provided.
I have forwarded the link to a very knowledgeable Arab friend of mine to look into this and will come back with his reply.
Meantime allow me to let you know about the horrendous mistakes.
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 514:
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah’s Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah’s Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, “Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?” He replied, “Allah’s Apostle taught it to me.” I said, “You have told a lie, for Allah’s Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours.”
So I dragged him to Allah’s Apostle and said (to Allah’s Apostle), “I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven’t taught me!” On that Allah’s Apostle said, “Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!” Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah’s Apostle said, “It was revealed in this way,” and added, “Recite, O 'Umar!” I recited it as he had taught me. Allah’s Apostle then said, **“It was revealed in this way. This Qur’an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you).” **
Regarding the hadith above.
Note that it has to do with recitation. Quran can be recited in 7 different ways and I think it’s to do with 7 dialects ‘Quraishi Arabic’ [the language of the Quran]. The meaning of the ayahs never changes at all.
The Prophet (saw) was present when this incident happened! He wouldn’t have let anyone tamper with the Quran in his presence!
Check the link below: alinaam.org.za
THE VARIOUS QIRAATS
Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) is reported to have said, ‘Verily this Qur’aan was revealed in Seven Huroof (modes / versions of recitation).
It is also narrated that once Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) heard another Sahaabi (Hishaam ibn Hakeem) reciting Surah Furqaan in a manner different from the way he had learnt from Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). Hence, becoming angry, he enquired as to who had taught him, i.e. Hishaam, this manner of recitation, to which Hadhrat Hishaam replied that it was Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). Thereafter, Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) ushered him along to Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). Hearing his complaint, Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) asked Hadhrat Hishaam to recite. Upon completion, Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, ‘This is how the Qur’aan was revealed’. Thereafter, Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) requested Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) to recite, when he had completed, Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, ‘Verily, this Qur’aan has been revealed in the 7 Huroof.’ (Bukhari)
A similar incident is narrated regarding Hadhrat Ubayy ibn Ka’b (Radhiallaahu Anhu). (Muslim)
There are two striking points to learn from these Ahaadith:
The Sahaaba (Radhiallaahu Anhu) in turn propagated these Qiraat to their students. This process continued until the era of the Tab’e Taab’een (students of the Taab’een). This was the initial stage of the codification of the various Qiraat as we know it today. Since then, this codification has remained and will remain till the day of Qiyaamat, Insha Allah. Allah Ta’ala says, ‘Verily we have revealed the Qur’aan and verily we will protect it.’
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 416:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
(The tribes of) Ril, Dhakwan, ‘Usaiya and Bani Lihyan asked Allah’s Apostle to provide them with some men to support them against their enemy. He therefore provided them with seventy men from the Ansar whom we used to call Al-Qurra’ in their lifetime. They used to collect wood by daytime and pray at night. When they were at the well of Ma’una, the infidels killed them by betraying them. When this news reached the Prophet , he said Al-Qunut for one month In the morning prayer, invoking evil upon some of the 'Arab tribes, upon Ril, Dhakwan, 'Usaiya and Bani Libyan . We used to read a verse of the Qur’an revealed in their connection, but later the verse was cancelled. It was: “convey to our people on our behalf the information that we have met our Lord, and He is pleased with us, and has made us pleased.” (Anas bin Malik added Allah’s Prophet said Qunut for one month in the morning prayer, invoking evil upon some of the 'Arab tribes (namely), Ril, Dhakwan, Usaiya, and Bani Libyan. (Anas added Those seventy Ansari men were killed at the well of Mauna.
I have highlighted (Bold) "We used to read a verse of the Qur’an revealed in their connection, but later the verse was cancelled.
See it’s nothing to do with tampering. It says that the Ayah was cancelled! It’s all to do with Nasikh and Mansukh!
As I am not a scholar I will wait from the response of my ‘scholarly’ friend.