Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

listen man i am very familiar with your tijani like arguments so i know what u r trying to imply
if u are being impressed then i guess it dosent take much to impress u

42

Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

[quote]
The Prophet according to this traditon emphasized on this incident that Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain are his true family. Further more there was no one else included for ourselves, our sons, our women, then the these five pure souls. The incident proves that there is a Chosen family.

[/quote]

and this incident is well established in sunni hadith /history ....
recognizing the excellence of these 5 does not neccesarily prove
1-divine appointment of imams
2-that there are 12 sinless imams who inherit divine guidence

43

Brother Pagluu – the above ayahs refer to mankind in general – that majority of mankind will not/does not believe.

I am referring to the Majority of Believers.

So you believe being a minority indicates being on the right path and being in majority wrong?

Is it not true that you would love all the believers to follow the true path as 12er Shias? Being the right path.

Of course you would, So then if your wish become true the 12ers would become the majority wouldn’t they?

So by virtue of your logic (as you have quoted the ayahs stating the majority is always wrong) 12ers would be wrong being the majority!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you take comfort in being the minority!!

And Pagluu just my observations - I have noticed that you tend to pick up on brother Das Reich :)

I find him to be the most knowledgeable and well read poster in the religious section.

44

Ajrakum Allah, insha Allah sister.

45

if u pretty fimiliar with tijani like arguments then u shud b able to answer them, no? and as for impressing others, the best way is to have pure intention and Insha Allah it will bring about good results.

46

brother, you can clearly see in the Quran, even within the nations of the Prophets, it was only the minority that was truthful to the message. Be it Noah (as), Musa (as), Isa (as) or others.

And Shias, irrespective of being the minority, seem to be doing bulk of the work standing up for the truth in all the fields all over the world, Aldumdolillah.

And your observation that i pick on Das Reich is wrong. In this same thread i have appreciated his knowledge of the history. Insha Allah i pray that he keep using his knowledge to guide people.

47

it does expose the true face of the people who ill-treated these pure family members of the Ahlul Bayt (as). It seems that a lot of people want to have the cake and eat it too.

48

If Imam Ali did not oppose the methods of Abu Bakr and Umar then why did he reufse to follow Sunnat of these 2 when he was offered the khilafat by the Shura comittee that was set up by Umar?

49

Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

^ I never said ali's policies were identical to abu bakr /umar
what i said was he did not oppose the policies of first 2 caliphs politically [as he did in uthman's time] or militarily e.g his war against the pretenders in his caliphate]

ali's difference with umar's policies was distribution of stipend in which he followed Prophet and abu bakr's example
ali's difference with abu bakr was that he followed umar and prophet's principle of sabiqa or precedence in islam as degree of importance to early converts and reducing the status of the quraish aristocracy.

But ali's reign was not a radical break from the policies of first 2 caliphs as is evidenced by the fact that a huge part of his army were the khawarij who were wellpleased with first 2 caliphs and did consider them superior to ali.The discourses between khaawrij and ali's supporters even after their split does not indicate anywhere that they also differed in their opinion regarding the first 2 caliphs.
Furthermore even those of ali's loyalists who did consider him most worthy of succeccding the prophet , nowhere displayed any harshly critical views on abu bakr /umar
what united both groups was their condemnation of uthman and later ummayyads.

In light of this we can safely assume that while ali might have differences in administration with abu bakr/umar he did not consider these differences significant enough to openly oppose them as he did in times of uthman and later....For ali example of prophet alone was sufficent with no additions or subtractions, but if he felt that abu bakr/umar were grossly violating the norms of justice then he wud have protested like he did in uthman's time.As you wud agree there was a lot of freedom of speech in umar's time , far more than in uthmans.

bear in mind it was not only ali who might have differed with abu bakr /umar several other senior companions including talha , zubair and several ansar were also very vocal about their views when they differed with those of caliphs.Similarly sometime in ali's caliphate many of his advisors will differ with on several issues leading to strong words and harsh rebukes like case of abdullah b abbas] it does not neccesarily mean they were actively plotting against ali or his govt.This kind of difference of opinion was tolerable to muslims in those days and there was no unquestionable obedience required from the caliph.

and again may i remind all we are digressing from the main topic
which is evidence that Ali or Abu Bakr were apppointed by the Prophet .
I think Umar's quote is worthy of mention here ...when asked to choose a successor he said
"someone better than me [abu bakr] choose one but someone better than him i.e Prophet] did not so I will not choose one"

50

Pagluu yara, why we are all so biased and prejudiced that we find tiny bit of evidence to prove Ali rah was somehow dying to kill Abu Bakr rah or Umer rah (nauzbillah).

So what! they had tiny bits of disputes, and some times big disputes. Theirs was a different society, different time.

Man those guys lived in a time (and galaxy) far far away. Try to take examples of love if you want, from that time, and not this every bit of animosity.

They were all hum-nawala and all companions of our Messenger pbuh. Why we are hell bent on creating hatred among each other 1400 years later. Is that Ali rah or Abu bakr would have wanted from us. Just think if they come alive today and see us involved in these lengthy debates as to who was superior among Abu bakr or Ali?

In your quest to create hatred, you even go the lengths of quoteing Quran for the "chosen" people.

How many times Quran says it, and it can be applied to the current time as:
**
No kala, no gora, no Arab, no Irani, no Pakistani, and no Indian is better unless his aamal / actions are better. If someone says he is Quraishi so he is chosen, then the most one can do is "laugh" at him. **

So what if someone is Makki, Madini, or Qurasishi. The guy now lives in Pakistan, or lives in USA on an Pakistani passport. The only thing matter now is how nice he is with other Americans, how truthful he is, how honest he is. And that's all.

His namaza roza is between him and Allah. His genes and jeans are his business and his business alone.

It is time to use our own heads to spread humanity and love.
It is time to cut the 1000's old history cr-ap and move on.

51

Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

^burqaposh yaar, Allah na karay that i suggest that somehow Imam Ali wanted to kill Abu Bakr, Umar, or Uthman. He never conspired against them but infact when asked, he always gave them the best advice. He also sent his own family memebers, including Imam Hasan and Imam Hussein, to defend Uthman against the rebels. He also himself took water to Uthman when he was beseiged, hungry and thirsty inside his house. It was only Muawiya who took to war against Imam Ali. Nothing wrong with discussing these matters academically bro, comeon. We should try to find our what Allah and his Prophet wanted from us. Thankyou though.

52

Pagluu – you must understand the Islam is the last religion and no other religion or Prophet will come. So Islam has to dominate and prevail till the end of times.

Quran testifies to this:

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). [61:9]

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness. [48:28]

Now to the issue of Majority & Minority, please refer to the sermon of Hz. Ali (ra):

With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. * -* Nahjul Balagha Sermon 126**

Hadith to similar effect from the Prophet (saw):

The Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said “There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (PBUH) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]

The Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]

The Beloved Prophet (PBUH)said " Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!" [Ibne Majah]

The Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said "The devil continually pursues humans as a wolf pursues sheep. The wolf only dares to attack those sheep which have separated from the rest of the flock and are standing alone. And so, my followers and my devotees! Save yourselves from being caught in the traps of misguidance and firmly remain with the largest and most well known group of Muslims!" [Imam Ahmad]

The Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said " Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah's mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell." Tirmidhi]

The Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said “He who deviates from the largest group of Muslims, even as much as a hand span, has himself cut off his connection with Islam." [Abu Daud, Imam Ahmed]

So the truth lies within this ‘great majority’ of Muslims being Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaa.

This does not mean that every Sunni is having the correct beliefs – It is with those who are in middle and not on the fringe.

I know this that everyone thinks that they have the monopoly on the truth.

Our every effort should be to strive for the truth till end of our lives and not be satisfied with what we have ‘at hand.’

The above statement is true and that too from the time of Iranian revolution 1978. Before that it was not the case. And 12ers have not had any impact on the World affairs before that.

Please take this as a fact and not an idle boast from me on the behalf of Sunnis.
It is Sunnis who spread Islam to the far corners of the world – from Spain to China and form Africa to Jungles of Far East.

It is Sunnis who stood up to the assault on Islam from the Mongols and the Crusaders.

It is a fact that when the Sunnis were Strong and upright so was the Ummah, and when they were low and down so was the Ummah. This is historical fact. So the numbers do matter a lot. That’s the reason Sunni admire Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmednejad to their own corrupt leaders.

Insha’Allah Sunnis too will throw out the despot corrupt leaders like the Shias in Iran did and then the Ummah will live with dignity it deserves.

Refer to the following hadith of the Prophet (saw) and see how it fits in with present standing of the Ummah.

*On the authority of Thawbaan , the Prophet said: The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their food.”

Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?”
He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.”
Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?”
He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” [An authentic hadith recorded by Abu Dawud and Ahmad]*

Insha'allah with Allah's the Sunnis will also soon get rid of the corrupt to the core leaders imposed upon them.

Enough said by me on this thread. Statement below sums all up the best

[QUOTE]
** Das Reich **I think Umar's quote is worthy of mention here ...when asked to choose a successor he said
"someone better than me [abu bakr] choose one but someone better than him i.e Prophet] did not so I will not choose one"
[/QUOTE]

53

Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

[QUOTE]
The above statement is true and that too from the time of Iranian revolution 1978. Before that it was not the case. And 12ers have not had any impact on the World affairs before that.

Please take this as a fact and not an idle boast from me on the behalf of Sunnis.
[/QUOTE]

well said
I would say that people like mujadid alf thani , syed ahmed shahid prevented islam from being corrupted right in our own subcontinent
not to mention people like shah wali ullah , maulana maududi etc

bear in mind in those times 12er shias were nowhere in the picture regarding revival of islam.Infact 12ers have no shortage of corrupt govts like the nawabs of awadh, safavids and deccan states.

54

bro, first of all the ayats you have mentioned about Islam overcoming all the other religions refer to the time of the return of Imam Mahdi and Hazrat Isa (as). This will be the time when Islam and its teachings will overcome other religions and Quran o Sharia will be the basis of the rule all over the world. This is much more logical and understandable understanding of the ayats you mentioned because its been 1400+ years since the message of Islam has completed, and anybody with fair mind could see that Islamic ummat is at the moment playing hardly any role as far as prevailing teachings such as justice, fairplay, human rights, brotherhood, racism, tribal/caste systems, women rights etc are concerned.

Islamic teachings no doubt proclaim and exceed other religions and ideas of this world. However we must ponder hard why we as Muslims have lagged behind from the other nations.

Secondly, the khutba of Imam Ali 126 from Nahjul Balagha, the people of extremes are those who said he was God (Alawis, Nussayria), and the other extreme was those who hated him to death (Khawarijias, Nasibis, Muawiyya supporters etc). The middle majority were the Muslims, which included both the shias and the sunnis (check the context and the occassion this khutba was given from both Shia and Sunni sources that commented on Najul Balagha).

Now as for the hadiths stating that majority sect will be right etc, there are numerous questions that require answer. First of all which one is the majority sect? I think if you go by commonly published statistics it is Hanafis who make between 300 to 400 million. And then Jaafaris who make between 250 and 300 million and so on.
And if any of us think that all the Shias or Sunnis or subgroups such as 12ers or Malikies were to go to jannat judged upon the sectarian tags they were born with, then i believe it to be seriously flawed way of thinking that directly challenges Allahs' justice system. This also contradicts the principles stated in the Holy Quran, such as when Quran states:

5:69 for, verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the sabians, and the Christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

There are plenty more ayats like this in praise of "righteous" Christians, Jews etc. Bro, only the people with good aamals will go to Jannat OR the people who are lucky enough to get Shifaa't from the special loved ones of Allah as stated in the Quran, Allahu Aalam.

Looking towards majority in search of 'haq' is a weak arguments for one that has no basis in the Quran o Sunnat whatsoever. Therefore i doubt the above hadiths to be true, AllahuAlam.

Lastly bro, my views again differ from you as far as the question of who has sacrificed most for Islam is concerned. There has been noone who could claim to have saved Islam other than the Aaema (as). Their sacrifices and educationals services are surely unmatchable. At the same time both sincere Shia and Sunni people have given their soul and blood for the religion too during different periods in time. I am proud to say at the moment Sunni Hamas is bring supported by Shia Iran, Hezbollah, Syria block because Hamas are simply with haq. This is the attitude that we all must develop if we are to progress.

Last but not least i agree with you for once where u have quoted Umar as saying:

"someone better than me [abu bakr] choose one but someone better than him i.e Prophet] did not so I will not choose one"

I agree that Abu Bakr was not chosen by the Prophet (saww) just as stated in the quote above.

Insha Allah i pray to Allah to keep us all on the right path, and give us strength and capability to learn more by every passing day.

GS Apprentice - TEAM 3 (Task 2)!!!!!!