Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

Society Religion & Philosophy
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12er Shias claim is that Prophet (saw) had appointed Hz. Ali (ra) as his successor on the direct command of Allah (swt) at Khum Ghadeer.

Isn’t Hz. Ali (ra) duty bound to remind the people of his Divine appointment?

For instance we have the example of Prophet (saw):

1) He was never tired to telling the people that he was appointed as the Messenger of Allah (swt) and what his mission was all about. [a few examples given below].

I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah. I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah. I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah. There will be no prophet after me. - (Musnad Ahmad)

I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday after my time. And I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me. - (Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Muatta')

I have been sent by Allah to carry His Divine message to the whole world.

I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday after my time. And I am the last in the sense that no Prophet shall succeed me. (Bukhari, Muslim, Tirimzi, Mishkawt)

2) Even when under the pressure of Quraish his dear uncle Abu Talib requested him to tone down his opposition the Quraish, his answer was uncompromising and he said the following: 'O my uncle, by Allah, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left in return for my giving up this cause, I would not give it up until Allah makes Truth victorious, or I die in His service.

Read the following sermon of Hz. Ali (ra) stated just as the people were clamouring him to take over the khilaffat after vicious murder of Hz. Uthman (ra).

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. **It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.* * - **Nahjul Balagha **Sermon 91

Read the sermon 91 again and you will note that Hz. Ali (ra) do not even once mention the incidence of Khum Ghadeer or his divine appointment as the successor of the Prophet (saw).

Would he dare utter the following if he knew that Allah (swt) had appointed him as the rightful successor to the Prophet (saw)? Does he have the right to opt out his divine mission.

Just as the Prophet (saw) wouldn't have compromised on his mission so wouldn't have hz. Ali (ra).

"It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief."

This was the Golden opportunity he had to remind the people of this Divine appointment to be the rightful successor to the Prophet (saw). He had no need to practice Taqiyyah as all the people were clamouring for him to be the Khaleef.

Do let me know why?

By saying the following “I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief" he has tacitly accepted that he had no ‘automatic divine right’ to the Khilaafat.

Thanks I'm fine - too much debating isn't good for health so I try keep away :) and I wish you all the best.

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When religion is mixed with politics, there is never a full stop. People will continue debating until the day of judgement. And given a chance they will still debating even in Jahanuum and Jannat.

This is part of the chat that we all humans need all the time, being "social animals".

Going back to the thread, Here is a question.

If we had a clean slate to start over, And Ali rah was the first Khalifah, who should have been the next Khalifah?

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in known history not one religious Govt have done one 100th of the atrocities, what have done by NON-relgios Govt.

Remember I didn't say muslim I said religious.

Last person to post in this thread wins!
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Which religious governments?

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Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

I said any!!!

religious fanatic never believed in ethnic cleansing. even worst of all taliban , did not want to KILL all.
They want to reform ALL.

On the other hand most advance nations do believe on KILLING all to fix the issue.

Advertise in Your LocaL LANGUAGE
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That's not true. The Jewish Talmud sanctifies ethnic cleansing of non-Jews.

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religion and politics are inseperable in islam, even if u are sunni u think abu bakr & umar were merely political leaders?.

[QUOTE]
If we had a clean slate to start over, And Ali rah was the first Khalifah, who should have been the next Khalifah?
[/QUOTE]

thats a hard one, ....even Ali died in 40 AH his supporters unanimously elected Hasan, Ali did not appoint anyone
if ALi had been first caliph he was the youngest of the 4 ...so assuming he died early like 30 AH there are still many senior companions alive anyone of which cud be caliphs abubakr & umar though wud likely be dead by that time
secondly under Ali is unlikely that Quraish solely held the right to caliphate as ALi had appointed a lot of non-quraishi or ansars to high posts [including his successor at one time] ...so it very likely that a medina ansar might have been a second caliph

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have u read the history books including the Sunni ones? If you had then you wouldnt be making such statements. There are many recorded instances where Imam Ali and his companions reminded ppl of the truth. Plz read.

Btw there is a difference between Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali. Prophet had to lay out the message of Allah and present the book no matter how many accept or reject the message. However in Imam Ali case it was upto people to fulfil the command of Allah and his Prophet. It was a test (still is!). Anyways...btw you havent answered my reply to your last post yet.

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barak 'Allah brother.

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And IF YOU had read the History books and including the Sunnis ones and not just from Shia sites you too would be stating exactly what I am (stating).

You are wrong!!!

Prophet Mohammed (saw) was appointed by Allah (swt) and he was duty bound to proclaim it no matter what how harsh the opposition.
And similarly IF Hz. Ali (ra) was appointed by the Divine Will as the successor to the Prophet (saw), he was duty bound to proclaim it no matter what how harsh the opposition.

Right – see the following post.

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It was Prophet (saw)’s will that people choose their own leader after him and he made showed a lot of preference for Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and there are numerous accounts of this.

The most important of these is that in his last days of illness when he was unable to lead the prayers he made sure that Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) was the imam leading the paryes!!!

So you have agreed that Hz. Haroon (as) was not the successor or the rightful Khilafah of Hz. Musa (as) and the hadith you had quoted did not apply.

You have used the word “IF” and this is applied condition to the event that will not happen.

The Prophet (saw) has used the same to emphasize end of Prophethood.
Narrated Isma'il: I asked Abi Aufa, "Did you see Ibrahim, the son of the Prophet?" He said, "Yes, but he died in his early childhood. Had [IF] there been a Prophet after Muhammad then his son would have lived, but there is no Prophet after him." [al-Bukhari 8.214]

Similarly:

The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said: "IF an Apostle were to succeed me, it would have been 'Umar bin Khattab." (Tirmidhi,Kitab-ul- Manaqib)

I have quoted the said ayahs below, please show me how Abu Bakr (ra) or Umar (ra) or Uthman (ra) and the rest are not from people of Hz. Ibrahim (as).

Have they a share in dominion or power? Behold, they give not a farthing to their fellow-men?
Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom.
Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him: And enough is Hell for a burning fire. [4:53-55]

And note that how the shia scholar (Pooya) has commented on the above verses:

*
[QUOTE]
[Yusufali 4:53] Have they a share in dominion or power? Behold, they give not a farthing to their fellow-men?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:53]

The kingdom of Allah granted to the children of Is-haq was taken away from them after Isa, and was transferred to the children of Ismail. Refer to Matthew 21: 41 to 45.
So niggardly of spirit are the Jews that no one will be benefited if they happen to own a kingdom.

[Yusufali 4:54] Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:54]

It was the "house of Ibrahim" which was promised leadership in religion and greatness as a nation. Please refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 124 to know how the divine kingdom was transferred to the descendants of Ismail, the son of Ibrabim,-the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, whom Allah has given the book, the wisdom and a great kingdom.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

According to this verse the descendants of Ibrahim, through Ismail, have been given the book and the wisdom and the authority to guide and lead mankind, because they are foremost in total submission to Allah. Mankind has been enjoined to follow and obey them, even if they do not hold any defacto power, which the descendants of Ismail had for a very brief period in the times of the Holy Prophet and Ali ibn abi Talib. If authority means defacto temporal power, then there is no room for dividing the people into believers and unbelievers in verse 55.

[Yusufali 4:55] Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him: And enough is Hell for a burning fire.

Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:55
[/QUOTE]
*

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I did not know that you considered names such as Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Suyuti et al writers for the Shia web sites. As for whether what i said exists in the commonly accepted Islamic history books or not I leave it to the readers to decide.

And Imam Ali (as) indeed proclaimed his right to successorship. Why do you think the great companions of the Prophet like Ammar Yasir, Salman Farsi, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abu Ayub Ansari, Jabir b Abdullah Ansari did not pay allegiance to Abu Bakr? Why Ahlul Bayt and the Bani Hashim didn't pay allegiance to Abu Bakr?

It is true that Imam Ali did not force his right of succesorship on the people. And that was becuase he did not want a civil war. He did not want the destruction of Islam, the religion for which he had sacrificed most after the Prophet himself. He remained patient as instructed to him by the Prophet before his death.

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way.

show me a single instance where the Prophet did not abide by the above divine rule and forced other people to follow him! Prophet had presented the message of Islam without any force, which is the right path and it was Imam Ali who was chosen to guide the nation on this right path.

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Did Prophet "indicate" to chose Abu Bakr as the Khalifa? This topic has been discussed here comprehensively on numerous occasions and i dont think we need to go over it again. A simple search should produce enough good results.

As for Hz Haroon (as) point was, did Hz Musa (as) appoint a successor or not? Btw read the following ayats about Hz Harun (as) and the test of Bani Israel regarding the vice-generacy of Harun (as):

[Shakir 7:150] And when Musa returned to his people, wrathful (and) in violent grief, he said: Evil is it that you have done after me; did you turn away from the bidding of your Lord? And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards him. He said: Son of my mother! surely the people reckoned me weak and had well-nigh slain me, therefore make not the enemies to rejoice over me and count me not among the unjust people.

[Shakir 20:94] He said: O son of my mother! seize me not by my beard nor by my head; surely I was afraid lest you should say: You have caused a division among the children of Israel and not waited for my word.

Brother, Prophethood is different from Imamat. Reflect on the following verse:

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

You wish to show that right to Imamat or leadership apply to Abu Bakr or Umar et al too. But please read the condition for being an Imam. One must not be a "ZALIM". Aqa Pooya, the scholar you mentioned had explain the word zalim in the light of Quran as following:

Zalim (unjust) in the view of the Quran, is he who worships, or has worshipped a ghayrallah. Shirk (idolatry) in the words of the Quran is the greatest zulm or injustice. Therefore he who, at any time in his life, has been a mushrik (idolater) can never be an Imam. Besides the Holy Prophet there was no one, among his companions, who had not been an idol-worshipper, save his cousin, Ali ibna abi Talib, who alone could be rightfully chosen by providence "to receive the covenant of imamat".

Can Abu Bakr, Umar et al fulfil this condition? There is numerous types of Zulm mentioned in the holy Quran. Are Abu Bakr, Umar free from them at all?

As for quoting hadith from Tirmidhi praiding various individuals, please note that same Tirmidhi has the following hadith too:

"'Ali is the authority (wali) over every believer (mu'min) after me."
Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, 5:25; Sahih Tirmidhi, 5: 296

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Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

pagluu
some sahaba not paying allegience to abu bakr does not neccesarily prove that Ali was divinely appointed
as sa'd b ubadah one of the most distinguished sahaba and equal to abu bakr /Ali in many respects did not pay allegience to abu bakr as he considered himself as more worthy of caliphate
Rest of sahaba [who initially withheld allegience] including Ali after 6 months gave alliegience to abu bakr ....furthermore some people of banu ummayyah also did not pay alligience to abu bakr for several months either including the early convert khalid b sa'eed.

Ali did not oppose abu bakr & umar as they ruled by and large according to the book and sunnah , later people Ali opposed politically and militarily as they deviated from these pillars

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Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Suyuti are all Sunnis and are so to the core and believed in Khilafat of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar, Hz. Uthman and that of Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased them all) in that very sequence and held Hz. Abu Bakr as the noblest of them all, then Hz. Umar, and then Hz. Uthman and then Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased them all).

Many 12er Shia sites misquote them to ‘prove’ the slant of their sect. This fact is well known.

You just counted five people for Hz. Ali (ra) and this was their initial reaction for their own chose. They all pay allegiance to Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and then to Hz. Umar (ra) and served in their respective administrations very successfully.

Hz. Ali (ra) too pledged his allegiance to Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra).
It is the 12ers call it taqiyyah!!

Sorry this only 12ers belief. Hz. Ali (ra) is not 2nd edition to the Prophet (saw).
It is the duty of whole of the Ummah to carry the message beginning with the noble Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all).

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. [3:110]

Yeah this has been thrashed around a lot – Thank Allah that 90% of the Ummah know what is right.

Imamate is Shia Belief – Full stop.

All the Quraish are offspring of Hz. Ibrahim so what’s the problem?

Timepass - November 2012
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Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

[quote]

They all pay allegiance to Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and then to Hz. Umar (ra) and served in their respective administrations very successfully

[/quote]

not only them , but some of later supporters of Ali who are held in high regard by 12ers as well distinguished themselves greatly in the times of abu bakr & umar
e.g Malik b Harith known as Al-Ashtar
there is no recorded evidence of their opposition or condemnation of abu bakr or umar even during times of caliphates of ali

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You call quoting from Sunni books "misquoting" and we call it "evidence". Perhaps scholars such as Tabari, Suyuti deliberately left such information in the books for the people in the future to ponder upon.

And the list of ppl i mentioned is not restricted to these 5 great companions of the Prophet. Btw these 5 names did far more service to Islam then some of the other "great" names. These other "great" names have not much to show for except for some manufacutred hadiths in their praise. Otherwise their "great" family background & character is quite evident in the Quran and the books of history.

Subjects addressed in ayat 3:110 are the real companions who stood by the Prophet.

And could you back your argument from Quran that its Ummat responsibility to guide people on the true path? How could Abu Bakr and Umar guide the ummat when it was them who were always in need of help!

And bro as for you belonging to the majority, refelect on the following verses:

10:83 But none save a few of his people declared their faith in Moses...

11:40 for, only a few [of Noah's people] shared his faith....

2:83 and you shall be constant in prayer; and you shall spend in charity. ”And yet, save for a few of you, you turned away: for you are obstinate folk!

2:88 But they say, "Our hearts are already full of knowledge." Nay, but God has rejected them because of their refusal to acknowledge the truth: for, few are the things in which they believe.

2:246 ..They answered: "And why should we not fight in God's cause when we and our children have been driven from our homelands?" Yet, when fighting was ordained for them, they did turn back, save for a few of them; but God had full knowledge of the evildoers.

3:110 [but only few] among them are believers, while most of them are iniquitous

4:66 Yet if We were to ordain for them, "Lay down your lives," or, "Forsake your homelands," only a very few of them would do it...

11:116 ...except the few of them whom We saved [because of their righteousness]...

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Das Reich, either you do not understand my posts OR you want an opportunity to express your knowlege. lol either way bro, my point was different from the one you are addressing.

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"Say: I do not ask you a wage for it except the love in the kin" 42:23
"Say" I do not ask you a wage for it except that whom wants to may take a path to his Lord" 25:57
"God only desires to keep the uncleanness away from you O People of the House and purifies you a perfect purification" 33:33

Verse 42:23 with 25:57 show responding to the wage is a source of guidance. Loving ordinary people does not provide that guidance. The love of the Chosen ones provides that guidance.

33:33 Shows the House is pure and infallible. The hadiths show it was revealed specifically for Mohammad (pbuh), Ali (as) , Fatima (as), Hassan (as) and Hussain (as).

Further proof there is a Chosen True Family of Mohammad (pbuh) is the famous hadith.

"I am leaving you two weighty things if you hold on to you won't go astray, Quran and my Family. Verily The benevolent has informed me these two won't separate until they return to me at al-Kawthar" (Sahi Tirmidi, Sahi Muslim)

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Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !

Further proof in the Quran and Sunna, is the incident of Mubahala.

But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and our selves and your selves; then let us be earnest in prayer and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars. (Quran 3:61).

Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:
...And when the verse 3:61 was revealed, the Prophet called Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain. Then the Prophet said: "O Lord! These are my family members (Ahli)." (Sahi Muslim, Sahi Tirmidhi, Al Mustarrak by Al-Hakim, Dhakha'ir al-Uqba by Tabari)

The Prophet according to this traditon emphasized on this incident that Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain are his true family. Further more there was no one else included for ourselves, our sons, our women, then the these five pure souls. The incident proves that there is a Chosen family.

In Sunni and Shia prayers, the family of Mohammad are blessed (salawat).

The fact they are blessed shows the family of Mohammad consists of people deserving of blessings. It proves the whole family is righteous. Abu Lahab would count in normal family. And so not all those of normal family are blessed. This shows it's referring to the true malakut family.

Furthermore the fact they are singled out of all people to be blessed by humanity, shows that it's referring to Chosen individuals.