Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
Immamat of Abubakr(ra)
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
my dear bro, dont try to prove something that doesnt exist. Immamat of Abu Bakr- sounds too funny to listen to.
my dear bro, dont try to prove something that doesnt exist. Immamat of Abu Bakr- sounds too funny to listen to.
lol
I havent listened to Dr Tahirul Qadris lecture but i did read one of his books recently where he said that Allah and his Prophet gave the flag of Wilayat to Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) but Wilayat has different parts and Wilayat Siyasi went to Abu Bakr and Wilayat Rohani and Wilayat Ilmi went to Imam Ali (as).
First of all my question is: Did Allah and his Prophet make these pieces of Wilayat or you have done so to suit your version of the history?
And if what you have said above is true then why was there a need of a meeting at Saqifa to choose a "caliph"? A meeting which saw all the dalael come from anything but Quran or Sunnat!
Didnt Sahabis like Ammar b Yasir, Salman Farsi, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Hamza ibn Abd Muttalib, Jabir b Abdullah Ansari, Malik b Nuwaira along with all the Bani Hashim this? If they knew then why didnt they along with Imam Ali pay allegiance to Abu Bakr?
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
^Allah did not make any pieces of Wilayat, he did not make one at all. All he sent were Prophets to guide people. Wilayat is a later day innovation.
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
^^ So why does ALLAH talks abt wilayaat in Quran ? Allah declares so and so are ur wali's !
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
BISMILLAH HIR RAHMAN NIR RAHEEM
Assalam o Alaikum
Sahih of Bukhari as the last Hadith listed under the section on the virtues of Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as),:
"Ali is to me like Haroon was to Musa."
Haroon (as) was Musa (as)'s Brother (19:53), Vizier (20:29-36) and in his absence the Khalifa (7:142). And thus so is Ali (as).
Allah speaks only of Himself, Mohammad (saws) and Ali (as).... the believer who offered his ring in charity while he was in prayer, in 5:55,
"Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor rate while they bow down."
Sura Al Hadid, Verse 28, another verse that when translated in its proper grammatical sense reads:
"O believers, fear Allah and have faith in His Prophet. And you will receive a twofold blessing, and a light (noor) will be appointed for you which will guide you and by which you shall receive blessings.
It is here in the Ahl-ul-Bait, the purified and specified members of the family of the Holy Prophet, that the lineage of the Khalifatullah continues...
Verse 23 of Sura 42 reads {42:23}: "Say O Muhammad to mankind: I do not ask of you any reward for it, but love for relatives, and whosoever earns good".
According to traditions when the Holy Prophet was asked as to who were the relatives alluded to in the verse, the Holy Prophet said, "Verily, the reference is to Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Husain".
Thus The Bible reads,
"I have heard your prayer for Ishmael. I have blessed him and will make him fruitful. I will multiply his descendants; he shall be the father of twelve princes; and I will raise a great nation from him."
Genesis: 17,19-20, New English Bible
"The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted as long as they are governed by 12 men, he than added from Quraysh."
Ab agar kisi meray bhai ya behan ko mera copy/paste kerna pasand na aya ho, tu maaf kerna barah e meharbani....Kya karain sabiqa madrasoon (school/institution) say aadat par gai hay
^ Salaams
Sahih of Bukhari as the last Hadith listed under the section on the virtues of Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as),: "Ali is to me like Haroon was to Musa." Haroon (as) was Musa (as)'s Brother (19:53), Vizier (20:29-36) and in his absence the Khalifa (7:142). And thus so is Ali (as).
Salaams Sorry you are wrong – Prophet (saw) did appointment others as his deputies (Vizier) whenever he left Madinah.
Khalifa is a successor to a person – Prophet Haroon (as) did not succeed Prophet Musa (as) he died much earlier than him (Prophet Musa (as))!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So the above doesn’t count as you want Prophet Haroon (as) in counted as the khalifa of Prophet Musa (as).
Thus The Bible reads, "I have heard your prayer for Ishmael. I have blessed him and will make him fruitful. I will multiply his descendants; he shall be the father of twelve princes; and I will raise a great nation from him." Genesis: 17,19-20, New English Bible "The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted as long as they are governed by 12 men, he than added from Quraysh."
You are trying to stretch it to your liking!!!!!!!!!!
All the Quraysh are descendants from Hz. Ishmael (as) so the hadith doesn’t exclude Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) Hz. Umar (ra) and the rest.
The quotation of Bible and Hadith does NOT specify the 12 'princes/men' to be from progeny of the Prophet (saw)
You are trying to stretch it to your liking!!!!!!!!!!
my dear bro, dont try to prove something that doesnt exist. Immamat of Abu Bakr- sounds too funny to listen to.
Yes brother Nussairee I bet to your ears :)
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
[quote]
And if what you have said above is true then why was there a need of a meeting at Saqifa to choose a "caliph"? A meeting which saw all the dalael come from anything but Quran or Sunnat!
Didnt Sahabis like Ammar b Yasir, Salman Farsi, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Hamza ibn Abd Muttalib, Jabir b Abdullah Ansari, Malik b Nuwaira along with all the Bani Hashim this? If they knew then why didnt they along with Imam Ali pay allegiance to Abu Bakr?
[/quote]
saqifa meeting was a ansar vs quraish affair which has little to do with the later shia-sunni debates.Personally i think the first caliph could easily have been from ansar as well
but the rest of Quraish [minus early muhajireen] might have revolted against this...as most of prominent quraish were taliqs and had only recently converted to islam.They still held a grudge against the ansar for killing so many of their elders.Infact this fear of ansar was more than justified when the ummayyads took power.
Hamza b abdul muttalib was martyred in uhad ...i think u mean Abbas his brother
its true that most likely Prophet appointed no one to a political position over all muslims neither Ali nor Abu bakr.Some sahabas differed in their apppointment regarding caliphs but except for one eventually all paid allegience in the end putting the interests of the community first.
Malik b Nuwaira was a sahabi who was killed wrongly by khalid b walid [whose motivation was most likely personal], but he has nothing to do with the Medinian opposition against Abu Bakr which never resulted in any bloodshed and had largely subsided by the time of Riddah wars.In a later age when 12er attitudes towards abu bakr & umar became more belligerent ibn nuwaira is presented as a loyal follower of ALi but this is extremely unlikely since many of Ali's most trusted supporters actively participated in Riddah wars in support of median govt.
Also since umar and his son bitterly criticized khalid for his actions its even more clear that it was not simply opposition to abu bakr that ibn nuwaira was killed for...
[quote]
Indeed and this hadith wud have been a perfect argument to buttress their case when muhajireen argued with ansar during the saqifa but this was not presented as evidence .....infact its most famous narrater is Jabir b samura a relatively unknown sahabi with no strong pro-Ali or pro-Abu bakr inclination
strange ! considering this is supposedly such strong evidence to backup the later imamiyah 12er cause ....and considering a hadith not as important or distinctive to 12ers cause hadith of ghadeer] is narrated by over 50 sahabas in non-12er sources alone.
I speculate [without much evidence i admit....and God forive me if i am wrong ] that this might have been fabricated to justify the caliphate of later Kings of Quraish after pious caliphate.But later was used by 12ers to justify and backdate their beliefs to the time of the Prophet.
If you count 12 successors not counting hasan b ali and abdullah b zubair it comes down to hisham the last ummayyad caliph who yielded considereable influence.
^ Salaams
Salaams Sorry you are wrong – Prophet (saw) did appointment others as his deputies (Vizier) whenever he left Madinah.
Khalifa is a successor to a person – Prophet Haroon (as) did not succeed Prophet Musa (as) he died much earlier than him (Prophet Musa (as))!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So the above doesn’t count as you want Prophet Haroon (as) in counted as the khalifa of Prophet Musa (as).
You are trying to stretch it to your liking!!!!!!!!!!
All the Quraysh are descendants from Hz. Ishmael (as) so the hadith doesn’t exclude Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) Hz. Umar (ra) and the rest.
The quotation of Bible and Hadith does NOT specify the 12 'princes/men' to be from progeny of the Prophet (saw)
You are trying to stretch it to your liking!!!!!!!!!!
Yes brother Nussairee I bet to your ears :)
If Prophet did appoint a vizier every time he left Madina then how could he not appoint one before his departure from this world?
Quran has ordered every believer to make a WILL before dying; what was Rasool Allahs' WILL? (hint: search Sahi Bukhari)
Yusha bin Nun was Musa's successor but due to the death of Haroon (as) before Musa (as); however, do you think if Haroon was alive would there be another successor other than Haroon (as)? Even if you dispute that, Hazrat Musa (as) did appoint a successor just like the other Prophets of Allah did.
Seems like you are trying to stretch it to your liking!!!
Its true that Abu Bakr and Umar are descendants of Hazrat Ismael (as) but Quran has put a condition for being an Imam (Hint: Quran 4:54). Do Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman or Muawiya or the rest fit this condition or ever come close to it?
saqifa meeting was a ansar vs quraish affair which has little to do with the later shia-sunni debates.Personally i think the first caliph could easily have been from ansar as well but the rest of Quraish [minus early muhajireen] might have revolted against this...as most of prominent quraish were taliqs and had only recently converted to islam.They still held a grudge against the ansar for killing so many of their elders.Infact this fear of ansar was more than justified when the ummayyads took power.
Hamza b abdul muttalib was martyred in uhad ...i think u mean Abbas his brother its true that most likely Prophet appointed no one to a political position over all muslims neither Ali nor Abu bakr.Some sahabas differed in their apppointment regarding caliphs but except for one eventually all paid allegience in the end putting the interests of the community first. Malik b Nuwaira was a sahabi who was killed wrongly by khalid b walid [whose motivation was most likely personal], but he has nothing to do with the Medinian opposition against Abu Bakr which never resulted in any bloodshed and had largely subsided by the time of Riddah wars.In a later age when 12er attitudes towards abu bakr & umar became more belligerent ibn nuwaira is presented as a loyal follower of ALi but this is extremely unlikely since many of Ali's most trusted supporters actively participated in Riddah wars in support of median govt. Also since umar and his son bitterly criticized khalid for his actions its even more clear that it was not simply opposition to abu bakr that ibn nuwaira was killed for...
My point remains: Abu Bakr was not nominated by the Prophet, or else there would have been no need of Saqifa.
Sorry about the mistake about Syedus Shohda Hazrat Hamza (as).
^Allah did not make any pieces of Wilayat, he did not make one at all. All he sent were Prophets to guide people. Wilayat is a later day innovation.
my dear bro, Khilafat as we know it was the biggest innovation in Islam for which we r still paying the price! For wilayat plz read more before making such statements.
Ibn Sadiqe, bro good to c u. Long time no c! hope u been well.
Das Reich (now i know wht ur name means), could you or any other bro provide us with the Sunni view of Dawat Dhul Ashirah. Dawate Dhul Ashira was gathering that was organised by the messenger after the following revealeation: “And warn thy nearest relations.” (26:214)...... History books testify that the messenger had informed people of Banu Hashim of the successorship of Imam Ali (as) after he had announced his Prophethood to them. Tabari, Allama Suyuti, Ibn Athir all have stated this event in their books. Whereas Bukhari and co have remained totally quite about this important event!
Wilferd Madelung writes in his book The Succession to Muhammad:
“ In the Qur’an, the descendants and close kin of the prophets are their heirs also in respect to kingship (mulk), rule (hukm), wisdom (hikma), the book and the imamate. The Sunnite concept of the true caliphate itself defines it as a succession of the prophet in every respect except his prophethood. Why should Muhammad not be succeeded in it by any of his family like the earlier prophets? If God really wanted to indicate that he should not be succeeded by any of them why did He not let his grandsons and other kin die like his sons? There is thus a good reason to doubt that Muhammad failed to appoint a successor because he realized that the divine design excluded hereditary succession of his family and that he wanted the Muslims to choose their head by Shura. The Qur’an advises the faithful to settle some matters by consultation, but not the succession to prophets. That, according to the Qur’an, is settled by divine election, God usually chooses their successors, whether they become prophets or not from their own kin ”
(The Succession to Muhammad, Wilferd Madelung, p 17)
Now i do now know this individual Wilferd Madelung but he has raised some very good points.
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
^ i have also read his book, and its true that this point carries weight but as madelung later admits in his book this falls short of any significant historical evidence of it ....he says that either Prophet hoped to live long enuf to appoint hasan b ali as successor or simply died before he cud appoint anyone.Also remember that Ghadeer which is presented as the most definate proof of Ali's divine designation gets a 3 line mention in his book and that too MUCH later than saqifa events.
Furthermore the point of difference is more than that even if we assume for argument sake that prophet or God did appoint Ali as successor that is still a far cry from proving the 12er theory of imamate.As we wud have to totally disregard than all the other sects of shias who formulated many theories regarding imamat and wilayat much before 12er doctrine was formulated which diffrentiates them from all other muslim groups.
btw if u read madelung's other works he credits hisham b hakam as formulating the 12er theory of imamate in 2nd century
My point remains: Abu Bakr was not nominated by the Prophet, or else there would have been no need of Saqifa.
.
thats what i said too , but if Ali was appointed by Prophet [as 12ers believe] then we shud regard all other sahaba as apostates or atleast grave sinners dont u agree ?
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
regarding Bukhari yes he is more of a tradionalist mindset and often suppressed hadith whcih he thought were too partisan in his opinion.Or he choose not to elaborate on these hadith.Thats why its actually more helpful to read fath ul bari by ibn hajar than sahih bukhari alone.
Those scholars who were tradionalists and historians like ibn athir and suyuti did not suppress such reports ....but it does not change the fact that they remained committed sunnis.
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
Successorship of Imam Ali (as) and the concept of Imamat is quite clear to me Alhumdolillah. Others who arent sure could search on their own and reach at their own conclusions.
Hisham b Hakam was a student of Imam Sadiq (as). I do not know his exact contribution but i have heared praise for him. I am 24 years old and am still learning. Insha Allah once i graduate from my uni i wish to go to Najaf to study. And Insha Allah when i finish my religious studies and do come back to this forum then perhaps i could discuss with you history in details Insha Allah. But if you wish to talk to people who actually know history from Shia point of view then i suggest you go to: shiachat.com
And yes, all the sahabas who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr are considered bad by us.
Nussairee, following is from wikipedia about Dawat e Zulasheera
Da‘wat dhul-‘Ashīrah - Summoning the Family
Islām began when Muhammad became thirty seven years old. Initially, the mission was kept a secret. Then three years after the advent of Islām, he was ordered to commence the open declaration of his message. This was the occasion when God revealed the verse “And warn thy nearest relations.” (26:214).
When this verse was revealed, Muhammad organized a feast that is known in history as “Summoning the Family — Da‘wat dhul-‘Ashīra”. He invited around forty men from the Banū Hāshim and asked ‘Alī to make arrangements for the dinner. After having served his guests with food and drinks, when he wanted to speak to them about Islam, Abu Lahab forestalled him and said, “Your host has long since bewitched you.” All the guests dispersed before Muhammad could present his message to them.
Muhammad then invited them the next day. After the feast, he spoke to them, saying:
“ “O Sons of ‘Abdul-Muttalib! By Allāh, I do not know of any person among the Arabs who has come to his people with better than what I have brought to you. I have brought to you the good of this world and the next, and I have been commanded by the Lord to call you unto Him. Therefore, who amongst you will support me in this matter so that he may be my brother (akhhī), my successor (wasiyyī) and my caliph (khalifatī) among you?”[26] ”
This was the first time that Muhammad openly and publicly called the relations to accept him as the Messenger and Prophet of God, as well as being the first time that he called for a person who would aid him in his mission. At the time, no one but the youngest of them — ‘Alī, stood up and said, “I will be your helper, O Prophet of God.”[26]
Muhammad then put his hand on the back of ‘Alī's neck and said:
“ “Inna hadhã akhhí wa wasiyyí wa khalífatí fíkum, fasma‘û lahu wa atí‘û — Verily this is my brother, my successor, and my caliph amongst you; therefore, listen to him and obey.”[26]
(Sunni sources: at-Tabari, at-Ta’ríkh, vol. 1 (Leiden, 1980 offset of the 1789 edition) p. 171-173; Ibn al-Athír, al-Kãmil, vol. 5 (Beirut, 1965) p. 62-63; Abu ’l-Fidã’, al-Mukhtasar fi Ta’ríkhi ’l-Bashar, vol. 1 (Beirut, n.d.) p. 116-117; al-Khãzin, at-Tafsír, vol. 4 (Cairo, 1955) p. 127; al-Baghawi, at-Tafsír (Ma‘ãlimu ’t-Tanzíl), vol. 6 (Riyadh: Dar Tayyiba, 1993) p. 131; al-Bayhaqi, Dalã’ilu ’n-Nubuwwa, vol. 1 (Cairo, 1969) p. 428-430; as-Suyuti, ad-Durru ’l-Manthûr, vol. 5 (Beirut, n.d.) p. 97; and Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanzu ’l-‘Ummãl, vol. 15 (Hyderabad, 1968) pp. 100, 113, 115. Further references: ‘Abdu ’l-Husayn al-Aminí, al-Ghadír, vol. 2 (Beirut, 1967) pp. 278-289. )
^ hello there, u r only 25! masha allah. Good luck with ur hawza mission bahaqay Muhammad wa aalay Muhammad.
btw thank you for posting account of Dhul Ashira. As for Hisham, he was a companion for our 6th, 7th and 8th Imam. There is books on the companions of the Aema (as) that you could read on various Shia sites such as al-islam.org (pm me if you want the links). We hold them in high esteem as these were the noble people who actually studied in person under the Imam(s) of their time. It was these students of the Aaema who formed the core group of the Imami Shia, and produced scholars of Qom & Baghdad and others. Hisham is well known for amazing polemics and discussion/arguments with the the non Imamis. However this doesnt mean that he invented the Imami doctrine as some Sunni historians have tried to claim. His teacher was Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) , and after him Imam Musa Kazim (as) , with Hisham living upto time of Imam ALi Reza (as). He was held in high regard by all the Aaema (as).
Re: Did Prophet(pbuh) chose someone as Caliph !
why can't we leave the past and concentrate on the future and make a better place of it. One says No, One says Yes, then he again says No, then Yes. How long? Cannot all say Yes, Yes, Yes we have one faith and accept that Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) was the first Caliph, Hazrat Umar (ra) the second, Hazrat Usman (ra) the third and Hazrat Ali (ra) the forth?
FULL STOP!!