Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died
Sounds like a classic case of Ahmadiyat…The Ahmadis distorted the words of the Quran for ‘khatam’ to mean ‘best’ instead of ‘last’…
Funny thing is, for 1500 years people believe and follow one thing, then suddenly this one guy springs up with something revolutionary, which is completely contrary to the teachings of Islam, and the ‘progressives’ flock to it like flies…
Even funnier is, that it is taken for granted, that the scholars and academicians of the Arabic language are taken as being mistaken for centuries, while this guy from India suddenly appears and out of the blue finds the true meaning of the word ‘Khatam’ and his translation holds authority over what the believers have known for centuries…
Same in Perveziat…Some guy comes in, from Pakistan or the sub-continent, comes up with a revolutionary new idea to describe a certain term, which puts the core values of Islam upside down, and suddenly his teachings are more authentic then those who actually speak the language and are its masters…
Quran has spoken about such people in clear terms: Surah Baqarah 2:75
Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly ?
Pervezis are a joke…They follow a guy’s verdict on a language which isn’t even his native tongue and challenge thousands of the masters of historians and thousands of years of research and scrutiny of this language and they still change their beliefs…
Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died
Islam is a complete religion of Allah. You think Allah would wait till the last minute for something that important to be said?? If there was something that important that needed to be said, than Allah would have extended the life of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) so that he says that important point and then departs this world.
And as Lajawab mentioned, Prophet Mohammad was an Ummi, so he would not ask for pen, but would just say what he had to say, and he knew that his sahaba, who were the best of all, would make sure that his message reaches everyone on the face of this earth.
So DSP sahab, u can tell ur friend these points, and there is no further need for this discussion.
Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died
sounds like a clear case of..since-i'm-not-knowledgable-enough-to-debate- this- on- my own, -i'll- fall- back- on- gross- generalizations- and- character- assassinations instead
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Funny thing is, for 1500 years people believe and follow one thing, then suddenly this one guy springs up with something revolutionary
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hmmm shias believe the same.. that the prophet wasn't an illiterate.. i think they date back a while.. don't they.. if that's your sole criteria instead of looking at all evidence and examining it with your own head for once.
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Even funnier is, that it is taken for granted, that the scholars and academicians of the Arabic language are taken as being mistaken for centuries
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a lie however old is still a lie.. a mistake no matter how often repeated, will never be correct.
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Quran has spoken about such people in clear terms:
*Surah Baqarah 2:75 *
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actually the context is Jews and Christians and how they concealed Allah's scripture and wrote their own .. but hey i wouldn't expect you to know all that.. afterall pondering over the Qur'an yourself would be the last of your priority.
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Pervezis are a joke...They follow a guy's verdict on a language which isn't even his native tongue
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typical desi inferiority complex with Arabic and Arabs.. no wonder y'all end up as their 'rafeeqs'.. btw u'r beloved Bukhari and Co weren't Arabs either. but u have no qualms accepting the lies they concocted..
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Ahmadis and Pervezis...'Nuff said...
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yep.. if it weren't for them.. Sunnis would have enough time to get on Shia's case and get busy kicking them out of the Islam kaa diara.
well the argument stands.. either accept the hadith and explain the Sunni fallacy of declaring the Prophet illiterate or deny the hadith and thus accept the inept scholarship of Bukhari and Co rendering all their work highly suspect.
Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died
More like a case of drawing on past experience…
Shias also believe that the Quran is incomplete and has been tampered with…Let us not go deeper into that…
Facts do not change…Theories however keep changing with time…Like the theory that the word ‘Ummi’ means gentile or that ‘khatam’ means best…The best scholar of Arabic cannot convince an Ahmadi that ‘khatam’ means last and cannot convince a Pervezi that ‘Ummi’ means unlettered…
No matter how hard you try to smash the matter of untruth against the atom of fact, the matter will be dispersed…What you call a mistake has been a fact for centuries…And this new fangled theory holds as much credibility as the ‘khatam’ theory of Ahmadis…
I do know the context and I would hope that you try to grasp the concept yourself…Of trying to distort or conceal facts which have been universal Islamic beliefs for centuries…
What has inferiority complex to do with knowing the meaning of the word ‘Ummi’…I can easily call your emoton as a perverted sense of superiority complex mixed with an added sense of Arabphobia…
Arabic is an ancient, rich and classical language which has produced some incredible masters in their own rights…For centuries people have studied it, scrutinized it from its beginning to the present…
Do you even see the fragility of you argument? It’s like saying, a Pakistani comes up and starts to dis German language masters by saying that the word ‘nein’ in German doesn’t mean no…Or an Indian dissing French language masters by saying that ‘oui’ in French doesn’t mean yes…
Does it actually even make sense?
We are not discussing Shia and Sunni conflicts here…
There is no argument…Your language masters have challenged the study of classical language masters of Arabic who have unanimously declared Pervezis as being out of their minds for believing such rubbish that ‘Ummi’ means gentile…It is you who have to prove that ‘Ummi’ does mean gentile…Just by saying it and believing it doesn;t make it so…
Ahmadis haven’t given up on believing that ‘khatam’ means last, so why should you give up believing that ‘Ummi’ means gentile? Misguidance may be easy to follow but it’s hard to defend…
At least we pick and choose from what was taught, as closely as possible…You just picked and chose a new fad…What’s next?
Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died
Maaf kare ga Lajawab bhai Muhammad pbuh Ummi thai yea nahi thai is se muslims ko kuch laina daina nahi hoona chiye yea bahaas ek daam fazool hai. Muhammad pbuh ka kaam Wahi ke Taleem daina tha aur Insaan ke zaat ke nash o nooma karna tha Jo ke muhammad pbuh apnay zamanay main kar ke chalay gaye Muhammad Pbuh per Allah aur Malaika bhi Darood o salaam bhajtay thai Jaab woh is Nizam ko Nafiz karnay ke liye shab o rooz Mahnaat kar rahi thai.Muhammad pbuh ke Shaksiyaat kitny Mukamaal thi is ka zikar quran main barha milta hai.Is Nizaam ke thaat Muhammad pbuh nay Bhut logo ke zaat ke nash o noma ke Jin main Sahaba karaam shamil thai jin ke sanaat quran khud paish karta hai ke Allah in se Razi hoo gaya.in ka martaba bhut bulnd hai.Muhammmad Pbuh ke zaat moot ke baad khataam hoo gaye Aur is ke sath hi Naboot ka silsila khataam na koi nabi ayee ga na humhe ainda kisi nabi per Imaan laaana hai.Humharay Imaan ka mukamaal hoonay ka wahid zariya Quran hai Quran per Aqlee dalil aur Sooch aur Bichar kar ke humhe phir se wohi Mashra Qaim karna chiye jo ke sahaba nay kia Ataat Abb sirf Allah ke karni hai Jo ke humhary Zaat ko Akela malik hai.Wahi KA itbah kar ke hum bhi wohi Kasoosiyaat Paida kar saktay hai jo Muhammad pbuh ke zamanay main Amli shakaal main moojoood thi.AApp jo tasavooor qaim kar ke bathay hain ke Muhammad pbuh likhna parhna nahi jaantay thai bilkul ghalaat hai aur bayboonyaad.Muhammad pbuh ke zaat aisay martaby per faiz thi Jo ke Baray se Baray Badshah aur Scientist ke zaat bhi is ka idraak nahi kar sakty.On ke zaat ke jo kasoosiyaat thi woh sirf apni zaat taak hi Mahdood nahi rahi balkhay mashray main jo dosray afraad thai is wahi ka itbah karnay se dosray logo main bhi muntaqil hoyee.is liye Allah on logo se bhi razi hoo gaya jis ke Ataat Muhammad pbuh nay ke kion k Muhammad pbuh bhi sirf Allah ke ataat kar rahi thai aur woh logo ko bhi Allah ke ataat wazirya wahi ka karnay ka kahtay thai.Allah sahaba karaam se razi tha is liye muhammad pbuh ko in se mashwaray lanay ka hukum bhi daita tha.Har nabi APnay maqsaad main Kaamyaad hooa hai yea ALlah ka qanoon hai.Kaamyaabi on logo ke naseeb main zada ayee jinhoonay Allah ke qanoon ka ahtaram kia app yea tasavoor kaisay qaim kar saktay hai jis shaaks per wahi nazil hooty thi woh likhna parhna nahi jaanta tha.Agar yea baat app is liye Maan rahi hai ke App ke Nabi jin ko app imam kahtay thai woh kah rahi thai tu phir Allah hi App ko Hidayaat day aur App Quran ke ellawa dori books ko Follow kar rahi hai tu yea bhi shirk hai aur yaad rakhay ke shirk Allah k nazdik kitna bara shaar hai.
Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died
of course there is.. it's just that Sunnis avoid it cuz it exposes their lies.
Is this hadith true.
Yes or No please
If it's true, then:
explain the Prophets demand to bring him pen and paper to write where he could have just dictated stuff.
When according to you everyone in those days had SPLENDID memories and everyone was indeed writing hadiths down by the prophet's permission, why didn't the prophet just say out what he wanted and let those ever present hadith scribes commit to their superhuman memories and collections?
If it's untrue.. then Bukahri failed in his scholarship and all his work is suspect, cuz u can't just pick and choose what u like..
Simple questions.. i'm sure u'll be able to respond without calling in 1500 yr old legacies of untruths.
Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died
The point of bringing in Shiaism Lajjo is that everyone here was saying that this is all a 19th century thing and your teaching arabic to arabs.
Whatever you think of shias they were arabs, and were pretty early in the game, so this is a valid counter example to “this is all recent” and “dont teach arabic to arabs”.
I dont know what PA actually is, whether he is pervezi or ahmedi or just regular sunni guy, but most of the arguments are around this point. That is demonstrably not the case because a large section of arabs from very early on have been saying the same thing.
So it forces you and others to address his points instead of hiding behind the you dont know arabic they know it so much better argument, Whatever your opinion on the broader views of shias (no we dont believe Quran is incomplete or tampered with any more than you believe he knew how to read and write )
Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died
expectedly the discussion has detiorated in content, and it isn't difficult to figure out who (first) fell to using dirty tactics in this discussion cough.....Jaan Leva.....cough Lajawab....cough
guys, if you cannot/do not want to carry on the discussion, just say so...but don't start name-calling etc. That makes your case even weaker. Pages 1 and 2 were acceptable, but the show you two have put up on page 3 doesn't fall under 'discussion'.
Anyway, just a general point I want to make about native versus non-native speakers: It might surprise you, but NON-native speakers often know more about grammar, technical and linguistic details of a language than regular native speakers...
Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died
read it again…
the accusation was not that he wrote the book…
he was accused of falsely claiming his words to be sent byu God…
they said (read the verse before it) that other people have helped him in conjuring up the verses…
they have written it down and RECITE it to him day and night so he can remember it…
if he himself wrote it, and cud read, why wud others need to recite it for him???
go and think…
jitna kissi ne kaan pe phoonkdiya utna sun ke aa jaatey hain or phir apna mazhab banaa letay hain…
get out of this ignorance and follow the real Islam as the Prophet (saw) taught it…
Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died
he was accused of falsely claiming his words to be sent byu God....
they said (read the verse before it) that other people have helped him in conjuring up the verses....
they have written it down and RECITE it to him day and night so he can remember it....
if he himself wrote it, and cud read, why wud others need to recite it for him????
go and think....
jitna kissi ne kaan pe phoonkdiya utna sun ke aa jaatey hain or phir apna mazhab banaa letay hain....
get out of this ignorance and follow the real Islam as the Prophet (saw) taught it....
Can u Tell us how should we follow the teaching of Muhammad pbuh?through ur imam which r hoojaat for mumins agar yea imam Books na likhtay tu humharay pass Muhammad pbuh ke teaching aty hi nahi?
Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died
Kis tarhan karain woh maashra paida? Kis tarhaan laain woh amli shakal? Aap ke dost PakistaniAbroad sahib nai to aik dafa post kar diya ke namaz kharhay ho ke parhi jaati hai…Koi sajda ya ruku nahin hota us main…
Woh amli shakal kahan se laain gai jab tumhain namaz parhnay ka tareeqa bhi nahin aata?
Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died
so u kids can fight amongst yourself...but lets take a short pause..
i reiterate the point that this 'story' that the prophet (pbuh) wanted to write/narrate something but was not allowed to, is completely fabricated, If there were people there to narrate that he was not allowed paper and pen..then those ppl could have heard what he wanted to convey anyways.
pause over...now continue fighting... I am done with this thread
Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died
Your Question: Why didn't the prophet write that treaty himself but instead he asked Ali?
My Answer: Prophet Mohammad(phuh) want to inform those who was in doubt about guid after him, which was declare on Even 2Ghadir Khom"
The Hadtih: MAN KUNTIM MOULA , PAHAZA ALI UN MOLA".
In this regard there was no reason to ask to a person who the what the prophet wants to give advice to Imam Ali (as). Infact ProphetMohammad (pbuh) is city of knowledge and Ali (as) is his gate of the city."
ALLAMA SHIBLI'S VERSION OF THE GHADEER EVENT:
"In the way, there was a place called Khum which is three miles apart from Johfa. Here was an oasis. In Arabic, an oasis is called 'Ghadeer’ and hence, in ordinary traditions, this place is called as "Ghadeer-e-Khum". The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) collected all his companions in this place and delivered a brief sermon.
'After Praising and Glorifying the Lord he said " O People I am a mortal. Possibly, God's angel may come and I have to accept (his message i.e. death). I leave behind you two weighty things. First of them is the Book of Allah in which is guidance and light. Hold the Book of Allah firmly. Second is my Ahle Bait, I remind you of Allah through my Ahle Bait.” He repeated the last statement thrice. This is a tradition from Sahih Muslim (in the chapter of Manaqeb Hazrat Ali (a.s.)), Nisaai, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Tirmidhi, Tabarani, Haakim-e-Neshapouri etc. have some more sentences too in which the glorification of Hazrat Ali (a.s.) are quite evident. In these traditions one sentence is quite common and that is: "Of whomsoever I am his Master, Ali is His Master. O Allah, help him who helps Ali and be his enemy who is Ali's enemy". Clear explanations in the traditions are not found as to what was the necessity for these statements. In Sahih-e-Bukhari, it is mentioned that Hazrat Ali (a.s.) was sent to Yemen during this time and on his return, participated in the Hajj journey. There, in Yemen, he did something on his own authority which was not liked by some of his co-travelers One of them on returning, complained to the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) about Hazrat Ali (a.s.)'s action. The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) replied that Hazrat Ali (a.s.) had the right to do more than this. It's not surprising that to dispel such doubts, the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) uttered these statements.
I think you got now why he did not called Imam Ali (as).
He ask for what he knows is in boubt about Guide after him,.
Think and think again.
It is also possiblity that prophet would have asked someone else to write and that is why he demanded the pen and paper... WE ALL KNOW for a FACT (through same hadith books LOL ) that he was ILL so he couldn't have written it himself. If he asked for it, it doesn't necessarily mean he will write it. If the prophet COULD WRITE, he would have written the treaties and agreements with non-muslims (hudaibiya) himself rather than asking someone else, Hazrat Ali in case of Hudaibiya.
Why didn't the prophet write that treaty himself but instead he asked Ali?
Qadiyanis NEED TO ATTACK these issues in order to confuse and deceive Muslims. It has been their hallmark ever since Mirza Ghulam at the request of Imperial British Terrorists said he was a prophet... and God glorified (for Qadiyanis at least) that liar with death in his own toilet.
If they can kill the idea of hadith, there goes many hadiths which talk about LIARS and DAJJALS who will appear after Prophet Mohammad and claim to be Prophets when indeed they are not.
They have already changed meaning of Qurani words... last *to *best, something ARABS and their scholars could not figure out for how many centuries???
PA's only argument is that NO BODY WAS THERE to see all this, no body was there to WITNESS whats in hadith... was he there during the time of Mirza Qadiyani? No, therefore we can safely conclude that he is following some mythical creature which never existed.
Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died
I skimmed through the thread and tried to remove as many off-topic posts (including the mudslinging) as I possibly could. I'm sure there must be many other posts that need to be edited/removed.
Please use the 'Report Bad Post' option, so that the thread can be cleaned up further. Also, please stick to the topic, refrain from name-calling each other, and deal with your personal hatred via PM.
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