Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

PA, I am using my head, thats why I am asking you questions... so now:

Gentile... what is that? (I know, I know, I can look it up in the dictionary, but I want you to tell me.)

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

Gentiles are the ones on whom no scripture was sent earlier.. the Jews and the Christians were people who had the scriptures.. their big beef with Islam was that it descended on a people (nomadic Arabs) who had no earlier scriptures sent to them; out of nowhere these beduins get the final revelation and the above parties were unable to accept that.. read the Qur'an.. this envy of theirs is described in various places.

Also read:

[2:78] And amongst them are Gentiles **who do not know the Scripture except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.

** That's as good a definition as we'll get from the Qur'an itself.. People who did not receive the scripture but only guess about it.. or as we'll see in the next verse.. just concoct something and call it scripture..

[2:79] So woe to those who write the Scripture with their hands then Say: "This is from God," so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

The part in bold lays the theory to rest.. Gentiles CAN write with their hands.. so they aren't necessarily "illiterate".. they're just the people who didn't receive God's scripture..

This illiteracy accuastion is another in the long lines of disparaging accusations damn Persians made against our noble prophet.. sadly the majority of Muslims would rather follow these Persians than think for one second how our Prophet was a successful businessman at such a young age without knowing how to read and write? How could he have received Qur'ans message which talks about thinking, pondering, READING, knowledge and would himself remain illiterate??

and coming back a full circle.. how could he have asked for a pen and paper himself instead of dictating something if he couldn't read and write himself!!!!

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

What is the difference between an Arab, A Muslim, A Mughal and a Persian

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

PA, I would answer your post in detail but first:

So, prophet mohammad was just a gentile not that he couldn't write or read? He was someone who didn't have the scripture *but was able to write and read? He could read and write (learned) properly but no scripture was revealed to him and that makes him a gentile, correct? *Same question in three different ways, so you don't have any issues answering.

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

The only thing making him a gentile is the fact that he wasn't versed in scripture... it having been revealed on Jews or Christians and not the nomadic Arabs he was born amongst.

The point of these posts was to illustrate that there is no evidence from the Qur'an about Prophet Muhammad's illiteracy. It remains an allegation without proof.

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

So, prophet could READ and WRITE proper arabic and he went to school or to some teacher to LEARN that? And that *fact *IS IN the Quran which leads you to believe he was not illiterate?

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

Here is a question, how is it that he was from a noble family, a well respected and estalished trader, and he did nt know how to read and write while many others around him did?

he would either know how to read and write to be able to be a good tradesman would he not?

Does that not sound strange?

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

HE traded? Is that in Quran? Wow! Did he trade alone or was someone with him all the time traveling back and forth?

So, he was well learned man then, able to read and write and understand arabic? Is it possible that he wrote the Quran himself?

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

I am in bangalore now, ok this hadith, i personally dont understand the hadith. Because Quran says Prophet was an Ummi, an unlettered prophet and in this place it says Prophet wanted pen and paper to write. I would probably think about 2 alternatives in this

1) We need the context behind this hadeeth and the hadeeth in arabic.

2) Reject the hadeeth as it goes against the Quran 62:2, as Prophet is unlettered.

Moreover, I have pondered over this hadeeth lots and this is my conclusion. Secondary we should understand that in the Quran, it was mentioned that Prophet was an Ummi, for sure this word of the Noble Quran was revealed during the time in Makkah as the Makkans had seen the Prophet since young.

If Prophet could read and write and if he mentioned this verse in the quran(assuming Quran is not a divine revelation) that Prophet was unlettered the enemies of Makkah, would surely take an advantage over this point and the complete message would be nullified.

Because Quran challenges, that they are no contradictions in the Quran verse, Surah Nisa verse 82.

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

Can you show then that anyone to whom Allah gave revelation was also automatically unable to read and write? Moses, Jesus, all the Prophets, were they also unlettered? Is that an eligibility criterion?

Secondly being unlettered is no guarantee that he couldnt compose the Quran himself from the perspective of an unbeliever. Nor is being lettered in every art we could learn any help in composing a single chapter like the Quran’s from the perspective of a believer.

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

I didn't set this criterion, these guys brought it up and opened themselves to all kind of possibilities.

If he was LEARNED man able to WRITE and READ arabic there is a greater possibility/chance of him composing Quran... and it happens that Quran is not in perspective of an unbeliever.

So, where did the Prophet learn to write and read arabic?

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

Im not interested in arguing either way, I just saw an illogical point and wished to remove it from the discussion.

My point is twofold, which your not really addressing. If your argument for Quran’s integrity lies in the Prophet being unlettered then logically anyone to whom Allah’s message was revealed must also have been unlettered otherwise the same arguments would apply to their revelations. That is clearly not something we can claim.

Secondly Quran challenges anyone to come up with something similar to the Quran, not just unlettered people. Which means according to us Muslims, even if he were highly educated there is no greater chance of him having penned the Quran himself.

According to non-Muslims historians I’ve read, the Prophet was a talented poet who in the tradition of arab poets at the time had no formal schooling and composed and recited poetry from memory, being influenced by the local versions of Christianity and Judaism he encountered as a trader. So him being unlettered isnt really an encumbrance, if you really want to believe that the Prophet wrote the Quran himself.

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

I read Prophet Muhammed not wrote quran himself but was composed from verbal memories of his companions after his death

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

thats a different issue kumar, has to do with compilation of various parts of the Quran that were either in written form or in the memories of sahaba.

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

whether he knew how to read or write or not. logically the entire story does not make sense per my initial argument that if there was a conspiracy then whether something was written or spoken, it would have ben covered up, and if there was no conspiracy then whether something was written or just heard it would be the same.

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

hmm can u please show me where I made those assertions or u're just being silly again?

The point being stressed is that the Qur'an DOES NOT say the prophet was illiterate. It's been clearly demonstrated to you that Ummi refers to Gentiles.. people to whom the scripture had not been sent yet, and it has nothing to with anyones literacy.

Yes we can make logical guesses about historical events attributed to his life as a trader etc that he obviously must have some kind of reading/writing skills to be able to trade but then again it's irrelavant to the thread.

Back to the point of the thread.. if this hadith is true.. (you must accept it or you should be ready to eat crow about the authenticity of these narrations as a whole) then it cannot be refuted simply on the flimsy basis of a 'conflict' with the Qur'an.. cuz there is none.

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

[quote]
The point being stressed is that the Qur'an DOES NOT say the prophet was illiterate. It's been clearly demonstrated to you that Ummi refers to Gentiles.. people to whom the scripture had not been sent yet, and it has nothing to with anyones literacy.
[/quote]

So, for 1400 years the translation that scholars have given to word "ummi" is wrong? Even the arabs in all thse past centuries were wrong for translating word in their own language to unlearned/illiterate/ignorant?
We are not talking about PEOPLE, we are talking about ONE man... what does God mean when he says "received scripture...?"

Gentile, if you look up its meaning in english dictionaries means anybody who is **not **jewish/christian.

003.075 *
**YUSUFALI:* Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant **(Pagans)." but they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it.

**PICKTHAL: Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee. And among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

SHAKIR: And among the followers of the Book there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a heap of wealth, he shall pay it back to you; and among them there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a dinar he shall not pay it back to you except so long as you remain firm in demanding it; this is because they say: There is not upon us in the matter of the **unlearned **people any way (to reproach); and they tell a lie against Allah while they know.

In this, what PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (jews/chritians) are saying is that since we are the PEOPLE of the book, we have no responsibility to those who do not belong to our faith. They think, having the SCRIPTURE makes them all knowing and wise while those who are not Jews or Christians are ignorant/unlearned. Even after receiving the scripture, Prophet Mohammad is still a GENTILE to the "people of book" as he is not from their faith nor does he follow their faith. Gentile holds same meaning for jews/christians as Kafir does for Muslims... why would Allah disrespect his Prophet by refering to him as a GENTILE which JEWS use in derogatory terms to refer to those who do not believe in same message as them just like Muslims do when they refer to others as Kafir.

The best explanation is that the Prophet was IGNORANT or UNLEARNED about the message of the Quran, its wisdom and the miracle until *it was revealed to him... before that he was IGNORANT *(ummi) of the facts found in the Quran.

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Re: Prophet Mohammad wanted to convey a message before he died

how do you explain the word “omiye” in Quran?
The translation is unlettered or illiterate.
The history books show he was illiterate. How do you oppose that?
HEre are quran references:
Suran A’raf verse 157
7:157 those who shall follow the [last] Apostle, the unlettered Prophet whom they shall find described in the Torah that is with them, and [later on] in the Gospel:Asad(7,124) [124]](http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=unlettered||truetruetruetruetruetrue<#) [the Prophet] who will enjoin upon them the doing of what is right and forbid them the doing of what is wrong, and make lawful to them the good things of life and forbid them the bad things, and lift from them their burdens and the shackles that were upon them [aforetime].Asad(7,125) [125]](http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=unlettered||truetruetruetruetruetrue<#) Those, therefore, who shall believe in him, and honour him, and succour him, and follow the light that has been bestowed from on high through him-it is they that shall attain to a happy state."

Surah A’raf verse 158
7:158 Say [O Muhammad]: “O mankind! Verily, I am an apostle of God to all of you,Asad(7,126) [126]](http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=unlettered||truetruetruetruetruetrue<#) [sent by Him] unto whom the dominion over the heavens and the earth belongs! There is no deity save Him; He [alone] grants life and deals death!” Believe, then, in God and His Apostle-the unlettered Prophet who believes in God and His words-and follow him, so that you might find guidance!

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

can anyone post to which sahabi does this chains leads upto? i think it is abdullah b abbass(ra)

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Re: Did Prophet Mohammad want to convey a message before he died

Muhammad pbuh was not a illiterate person.

(29:48)Before the revelation of this Quran, you did not know how to read or write with your own hand.
(As for the proof that this book has been revealed to you from Allah and not devised by you, everyone knows that).Ummi mean some 1 who belongs to Umm ul Qura.Umm ul Quran was the old name of Makkah.So if some 1 who belongs to Umm ul Qura wht Will u call him Ummi na. Muhammad pbuh Born and raced in Ummul Qura thts the reason why Allah call him Ummmi in the Quran.
And u can also see all this words Umm ummat Umm ul Mumineen Maa Amma
The root is ALIF MEEM MEEM Umm Means Mother and second mean is Root(jaar) .thts why we use this word in different sense like Umul Kitab Umul Mumineen (Ummat ke Maaain) Ummat e Muhammadi so All we r illiterate?So its now Prove Ummi doest mean Illiterate.