B had pointed this earlier also … unless you are a french citizen … “your” army never went anywhere near Kaaba in 1979 … though the US embassy in Pakistan was “raised” to ground …
B had pointed this earlier also .... unless you are a french citizen ... "your" army never went anywhere near Kaaba in 1979 ..... though the US embassy in Pakistan was "raised" to ground .....
That's where you are wrong my buddy. You are talking like Islamists jihadists who would deny Pakistan ever defeated Palestinian militants in 1970's Jordan or fought and killed wahabi extremists in 1979's Kaaba.
Pakistan had 1 brigade of army posted in SA until Gulf War-1. And they were not there to have chai.
Those 3000+ men were deputized to protect SA from the wahabi extremists. And at least one battalion was deployed in and around Kaaba when Wahabi militants occupied it in 1979. Read the details of that time. Pak ambassedor + Pak military attache were on the scene minutes after the occupation. And they were not there to take digital pictures. They were driving the whole anti-Wahabi operation.
And we suffered casualties there as well.
Even during the 80s (many years after 1979) if you were in Haram shareef, you could clearly see Pakistani SSG guys monitoring pilgrims.
p.s. And yes sadly the Islamists and socialists in Pakistan damaged American centers, consulates and they burned US embassy in Islamabad (it was not raised to the ground like you say).
Let me update you on rality … gulf war happened a decade after the siege of Kaaba !!!
As for Pakistan’s role … these are “dadi amma” stories told in Pakistan … while the siege was taking place … Zia was marshalling his people to attack the American Embassy …
Get some info on this issue … regaring Jordan … this is what i find hilarious when Pakistanis say they care for Palestinians … it was PLO that bore the brunt of Zia’s attack … so much for Muslim brotherhood !!!
The Siege of Mecca, by Yaroslav Trofimov.
French assistance
Saudi authority decided that their troops were too slow in defeating the rebels and that Saudi family rule was indeed threatened. Reluctant to seek help from the U.S., the Saudis approached the French, who sent three men from their secret force, the *Groupe d’Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale (GIGN), *to train Saudi officers in efficient tactics
Pakistan’s role
At the U.S. embassy in Pakistan a crowd chanted “Death to American dogs” and broke into the compound, while Marine guards were not allowed to fire their weapons.Demonstrators firing weapons killed one Marine and a U.S. Army warrant officer. Embassy personnel, 137 of them, huddled inside the embassy vault, nearly overcome by the heat and suffocation while the embassy burned, and they waited for help from Pakistani police, which did not come. Pakistan’s dictator, General Zia, was playing to the crowd, reluctant to alienate his fellow Muslims. While the lives of embassy personnel hung in the balance, he promised to make Pakistan “an impregnable fortress of Islam,” proclaiming “the situation” at the Grand Mosque “extremely sad” and proclaiming that “Muslims must pray to God Almighty to bestow His blessing and mercy on the Muslin World.” No help to U.S. Embassy personnel came from Pakistani police. Now free to defend themselves with firearms, those huddled in the embassy vault fired back against those at the vault hatch on the embassy’s roof. Night came and the embassy attackers went away. The Carter administration was misinformed, believing that Zia had immediately dispatched troops to the embassy. President Carter and Secretary of State Vance praised Zia and his troops for their stellar behavior, leaving those who had suffered through the attack on the embassy livid with anger against Carter.
.....
French, ... sent three men from their secret force, t ...
AB you must be a fanatic Indian the way you are trying to spread lies in order to prove your point. Oh Bhai there were 200-500 wahabi militants holed up in Kaaba. You want to tell us that 3 Frenchmen came and rescued kaaba.
hhahhahahahahahha.
So these three Frenchmen were not just rambos, they were super duper rambos. Do you even know how rescue ops are carried out?
You remember the siege of Golden temple? It was a similar situation. So you think Indian army would send 3 commandos to clean up large building like Golden temple?
Have you been to Kaaba? Do you know how big it is?
Three to five Frenchmen were there as advisors and not 'trainers'. You don't start training your commandos AFTER you have been occupied.
hahahha. you are the jokester.
FYI. Saudis couldn't deploy their troops because
a) they were not trained enough
b) Saudis didn't know which of their troops have turned islamists.
c) Almost all of the Islamists militants were Saudi soldiers so this this was like BDEshi mutiny + Islamists terror.
That's why at least one battalion (1000+) of Pakistani troops was immediately deployed in Kaaba who responded to Islamists-mortars with mortars and Islamists-bullets by bullets, drilled holes in the ceilings and flushed bunkers with pressurized water. That's how Kaaba was cleaned up from the Islamists.
Let me update you on rality ... gulf war happened a decade after the siege of Kaaba !!!!! ..... .
Precisely. At least 1 brigade of Pak army was constantly deployed from 1970s and 1991 Gulf War-I. And siege of Kaba happened in 1979, thus matching the time frame.
what's your point?
....... Zia was marshalling his people to attack the American Embassy ..... ....
If Zia was so anti-American then how come the same Zia became the highest ranking general directly involved in the pro-USA anti-commie campaign?
You don't even know how Zia was a dinner guest at the embassy and the US army bases all through his life.
The same Zia lead the Afghan offensive from the Pakistani GHQ against Commies while Indians were sucking Communist russians.
.... Pakistanis say they care for Palestinians ... it was PLO that bore the brunt of Zia's attack ... so much for Muslim brotherhood ..
Well Pakistani army is a peace keeping force in the Middle East. While many Pakistani civilians have turned Islamists.
So Islamists will support militants while Pak army will try to fight the very militants. What's so hilarious about it? Do you want to support criminals purely based on their religion while ignoring their terror?
Just take off your Indian tainted glasses and things may get better for you (I hope and pray for your wellness).
Somebody suerly is living in denial … here is another account .. this time by a Pakistani origin author… someone who happened to be there at the time .
New Statesman - The battle at Islam’s heart
Read his account… no Pakistani troops or SSG or anyone … he surely would have known … Please if you have any “relevant” information then share …
Grand Mosque Seizure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Check the wiki. Their is an author who interviewed many high ranking Saudi officials. His name is Wright and he wrote the book Looming Tower, (2006). He mentions that French and Pakistani military Generals were at the scene.
Now tell me why Pakistani general would be at the scene? To take pictures? Heck no! He was there to monitor and help direct the troops.
Obviously there were few French commandos too. But in order to defeat dug-in 500 Islamists you needed at least 1000 combat troops in the compound. And those were Pakistani troops.
He mentions French and Pakistani military attache … don’t know where you saw the “Generals” …
Even he mentions the involvment of French in the rescue …anyway … here is another Pakistani source … again no mention of the Pakistani troops. Though there is an account of General Zia and what happened in Pakistan … hmmm
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
In November 1979, one Juhaiman al-Utaybi occupied the Kaaba and declared that the Mehdi had arrived for the grand correction of the Muslims and that the Mehdi was his own nephew named Qahtani. Al-Utaybi was a pupil of the grand Mufti of the Saudi Kingdom, the blind cleric Bin Baz, who was also the funnel of faith to Pakistan anointed with dollars to the proliferating Pakistani madrassas if they killed Shias on the side. There was confusion before the Saudis finally killed Juhayman and his three hundred followers. Confusion spread also to Pakistan where General Zia had just begun ruling with the help of a religious party in his cabinet and lots of Saudi money. The news that reached in Islamabad was that the Americans had attacked the Kaaba and he stupidly said so in his broadcast to the nation. The religious fanatics attacked the American embassy and destroyed it. Zia had to pay for its rebuilding later on
He mentions French and Pakistani military attache ....... don't know where you saw the "Generals" ............. ...
Oh bhai, military attaches are serving high ranking officers. From 1970s all the way to 1991 Pakistani Military Attache was also a direct link to our Brigade commander in-charge of Pakistani troops posted in SA. And you cannot have a small time captain working at the level of a Brigadier
(BTW a Brigadier is a 1 star general for both Pakistan and Indian armies).
You ask yourself a question as to why an Indian military attache wasn't invited in the fiasco. Probable reasons for that are a)Indian attache could have been a non-Muslim b)India didn't have any military support role in SA.
Pakistani media's socialist and Islamists goons will never say positive things about our army. They only move when we have Indian threat. Otherwise the Pakistani media in their zeal for Islamism tend to minimize the role of Pak army in fighting the Islamists terrorists. Don't you see what our media did with our army even when it was fighting the Lal masjid goons in the heart of Islamabad?
chalo khair. As an Indian you are not going to listen to anything that is positive for Pak army. While you will continue hamering on the despicable role of Pakistani Islamists and socialists in attacking US installations in the aftermath of 1979.
koi baat nahihn. Keep on downplaying Pakistan's positive role. That's how Indians copy the behavior of Hindu-rajas of yesteryears. Always cat-fighting with their neighboring rajas.
chalo khair. As an Indian you are not going to listen to anything that is positive for Pak army. While you will continue hamering on the despicable role of Pakistani Islamists and socialists in attacking US installations in the aftermath of 1979.
koi baat nahihn. Keep on downplaying Pakistan's positive role. That's how Indians copy the behavior of Hindu-rajas of yesteryears. Always cat-fighting with their neighboring rajas.
Credit should be given where it is deserved .... in this case, so far, there has been no indication that there was "any" such role by Pakistan army. So nothing personal against Pak army here. As for attacking US embassy ..... Zia and by default Pakistan army played a role and the only thing that saved them was the fact that the Soviets were a bigger problem and Pakistan was the route to get there. Hence Zia became an ally and once the "task" was done ..... he was disposed with extreme prejudice
Rajas fight with each other ... be it hindu, muslim , christian or jews ....... any time you need a lesson 101 on this you know who to get in touch with ...:D
..... there has been no indication that there was "any" such role by Pakistan army.
....... Zia and by default Pakistan army played a role and the only thing that saved them was the fact that the Soviets were a bigger problem ...
- First you tried to deny the deployment of Pakistani brigade in Saudi (from 70s to 1991), and then you failed to respond when I did provide you with exact years.
You still haven't able to reply as to why Pakistani attache (general) was there as "advisor" to Prince Turki. Do you even know the role of foreign military 'advisors'? They are there with a contingent of their troops to directly and indirectly help the 'host nation'.
- AB you seem to be too young to have lived through 1979 Pakistan. It was not Zia but Islamists mob who attacked American installations in Pindi and Lahore.
Pak army helicopters airlifted American Embassy staff from the rooftop of the burning building.
It was mob scene filled with Mullahs and Mullah look alikes. Not a single army officer was involved in that despicable act.
Looking back, perhaps the Saudi money had already been used in the Madrassahs of Pakistan and that resulted in Islamism.
This was sort of precursor of the state within a state aka Talbianization in Pakistan, just like state within a state wahabi Islamists who attacked Makkah were the base of Alqaida.
There is a military attache in Pakistan embassy in Washington … but it seems he forgot to get his “troops”…
As for the “troops” from Tabuk … it was the Sixth Army’s sixth paratroop battalion led by Colonel Nasser Al Homaid that was responsible for clearing the mosque.
Again you “helicopter” story is busted … report on what happened that day
About 4 p.m., the occupants of the vault heard a helicopter overhead, raising hopes that the Pakistani government would mount a rescue. Then it flew away
read full story A Day of Terror Recalled (washingtonpost.com)
AB you have a habit of nitpicking few articles to support your myopic Indian view.
Here is a NY times article that does talk about Pakistani troops rescuing the Americans.
**
Troops Rescue 100 in Islamabad; U.S. Offices Are Burned in 2 Cities; Many Americans Being Withdrawn Pakistanis Storm the U.S. Embassy
**
By GRAHAM HOVEY Special to The New York Times
November 22, 1979, Thursday
Page A1, 798 words
WASHINGTON, Nov. 21 Hundreds of Pakistanis, apparently inflamed by inaccurate broadcasts, stormed and partly burned the United States Embassy in Pakistan today, killing a Marine guard and trapping 100 persons for five hours in a vault. **They were rescued by Pakistani troops as thousands of Moslem demonstrators milled about outside.
**
Buy the rest of the article and you can see where NYT reports helicopter based rescue ops by Pak army.
However I do not expect that you will ever change your prejudiced view of Pak army and Pakistanis.
Best wishes.
P.s. You still haven’t been able to accept your falsehoods about Pak army not being deployed as 1 brigade in Saudi Arabia from 70s to early 90s.
First thing first … the point of discussion is the role of Pakistani troops in Kaaba … period … Pakistani troops being stationed in Saudi has got nothing to do with it. If they were standing gaurd on the border that means nothing (my point was they were not part of the “action” and till now there isn’t any proof. Even the Wiki article talks about French planners for Saudi assault)
Now coming to the second part … of course Pakistan troops finally rescued them … they were inside Paksitan who else will save them!!! That it took Pakistan army five and a half hour to respond to the crisis is what is being discussed here. And yeah no helicopter rescue … it came it saw and it left … eye witness account. This is not an Indian’s myopic view … this is an eyewitnesses account …
At 3:48, we heard new sounds. “They’re on the roof,” somebody yelled. Dixie 17, the American school, told us there were three truckloads of Pakistani troops on a side road “waiting to move.” An embassy officer grabbed the mike. “This is the third floor of the American embassy,” he yelled. “You have our permission to move those troops.”
At 4:11, Dixie 53 (I don’t know where it was) came on the air:
“The embassy is on fire—the theater building and the entrance —and there is also smoke pouring out of the motor pool. The Pakistani miliary are not doing anything at all. The front of the second and third floors is on fire.”
The Pakistani army that had been coming to our rescue since the assault began at 1 p.m. finally opened the gates and some soldiers ceremoniously marched over to the ladder and welcomed us to the ground.
When we finally reached safety, Ambassador Hummel praised us for “having done more for ourselves than I could get the government of Pakistan to do.” He was absolutely right. I don’t care what President Carter says. I don’t care what Secretary Vance says. We came out all by ourselves. It was our Marine guards who saved us. Nobody else
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,948626-1,00.html
General Zia ordered the Pakistan Army to rescue the trapped Americans, and soldiers brought the situation under control at about 1800 local time (1300 GMT), about five and a half hours after the attack began.
And you dont have to pay for watching these !!!
.. of course Pakistan troops finally rescued them ......
Wow. Finally you have to admit the truth. Why did it so long for you?
Remember you started this sub-thread by posting lies about accusing Zia and Pak army for the American Embassy fiasco.
Oh well. This is what an Indian is "programmed" to do, always take pot shots at Pakistan and Pakistanis.
Shabash. shabash acha kaam kertay ho baita. That's what a Hindu mother would say to his "programmed son". No different from our Islamists bots.
Wow. Finally you have to admit the truth. Why did it so long for you?
Remember you started this sub-thread by posting lies about accusing Zia and Pak army for the American Embassy fiasco.
Oh well. This is what an Indian is "programmed" to do, always take pot shots at Pakistan and Pakistanis.
Shabash. shabash acha kaam kertay ho baita. That's what a Hindu mother would say to his "programmed son". No different from our Islamists bots.
US embassy was burned by a crowd and the military did not act for five and a half hours does that not bother you... you still think it was not a fiasco !!!!!!!
And all you can think is an Indian "programmed" to take pot shots at Pakistan..... well i just hope you get the insight to see when things are sliding into chaoas !!!
Re: Did Pakistan military help during Mecca seige? (Split from Mahmood Ghaznavi threa
YES they did!
US embassy was burned by a crowd and the military did not act for five and a half hours ...
Why don't you retract your misinformation spread against Pak military first so all of us can see that you are man enough to accept your mistakes?
Police or military response to terror attacks can always be subjected to "should have" or "would have" analysis.
In Gujarat Hindu terrorists burned 2000+ Muslims. How long did it take for Bharat matha jawans to control the mobs?
The problem is with your insinuations against Pakistan government that it somehow was involved in the embassy attacks. And I have shown you with ample proof that you were utterly mistaken.
You surely are not going to listen to me on what my assessment is about the attacks … here is something from Hussain Haqani about what happened. Though he also does not blame the army for the attacks … neither did I … but it is raises points on why there was a delay in action that lead to the attack. After all the embassy was only half an hour away from the Dictators house.
Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military - Google Book Search
His assessment is that Zia wanted to project an image that he is the only one that can provide stability in a region filled with religious bigots and he would not be the only one to do so !!! Does that make any sense to you !!!
...
Though he [Hussain Haqqani] also does not blame the army for the attacks .... neither did I [Aam banda].... but....
Aam Banda. Do you read what you say?
In your allegations as per your post #3 above
... ..... while the siege [of Makkah]was taking place ... Zia was marshalling his people to attack the American Embassy ..... ..
You implied that COAS Zia and hence Pakistani military was involved in the attack on the embassy.
Then you tried to deny that Pak army troops ever rescuing the embassy staff by quoting some 20 years late story from wash post.
When you were shown clear proof on the contrary, you changed your tune a bit but unfortunately continue to live in the la la land of denial and refusal.
Nothing special with you though. This is how a typical Indian is 'programmed' to spread lies and poison against Pakistan. Just like the Islamists bots.
As i said … still trying to hide behind the words … i said Zia was marshalling his people … maybe you forgot , but he was the “President of Pakistan”. So his people are his supporters … the hard liner or islamists as you call them. If i had to say Pakistan army i would have used the words saying “Zia asked his army to burn the US embassy.”
Now coming back to Zia … where was he when the US embassy was being attacked and the American adminstration was trying to get in touch with him to act against the rioters … he was out on streets of Rawalpindi giving speech on how he is going to turn Pakistan into a “impregnable fortress of Islam” …
Meanwhile in the diplomatic area where the embassy was being attacked … the troops kept arriving during the day and in words of an eyewitness were “silent spectators” … this incidently was from Dawn newspaper (next day!!)