Did Islam lose its war in India?

Dear rvikz,
That is very true, and BTW Dravidian civilization wasnt "hindu" civilization either by any stretch. To me "hindu" culture as is defined today is what came off from the interaction of sanskrit speaking tribes after they moved into the northern gangetic plain and the native largely dravidian peoples. Indus dravidian civilization was the formost pacifist people of their times. To me the real people of Indus and thus Pakistan were the dravidians. Though they dont exist as a people today in Pakistan xcept for a small group in balouchistan, their legacy will and always shall be celebrated in human annals of history.


Thus, spake the Sword...

i never said dravidians brought hinduism
to india since their language is non-aryan
not sanskrit based .

from frontier post
Sindh’s contribution to Arab sciences

S A Naseer Rizvi
The contribution of Sindh to Arab sciences has been tremendous. During
the Khilafat of early Abbasid’s, valuable addition was made to the
human knowledge by the scientific work from Sindh which was transfered
to Baghdad. Even before the advent of Islam cultural exchanges did
exist between Sindh and West Asia. Iran served as an intermediary
between the Indus valley and the semitic world.
According to the book Tabaqat-al-Uman, the first philosophical work
which found its way to the Arab World was brought to Iran from Sindh
during the Sassanid period. Physician Burzoyah was specially deputed
to bring useful medical herbs from Sindh by the then ruler of Iran
Chosros An-Nausherwan, who took keen interest in Indian medicines.
Burzoyah who was a great scholar, took with him to Iran some works of
Indo-Pakistan origin which were translated probably into Pahalvi. The
most celebrated among these works was the famous Panchtantra, which
was renamed as Khalilah-wa-Dimnah. During the same period the famous
games of the sub-continent chatrang and chausar were also introduced
in Iran. Thereafter Sindh scholars were invited to the Persian Academy
of Gande-sabur, where a curious blending took place. How far this
blending influenced west Asia can be gathered from the names of the
plants and drugs in Syrian, Greek and Persian works. This shows that
the cultural influence of Indus valley extended even to the Greek
World long before the Sassanid period of Iranian history. (History of
Sindh-Arab Period by Dr Mumtaz Hussain Pathan)
The country of Sindh (or Indus valley) acted as an early source of
inspiration to the Arabs, specially in wisdom, literature and
mathematics. The scholars of Sindh who were invited to Baghdad during
the early Abbasids were appointed to lucrative high posts in Bayt
al-Hikmah, which itself owes its origin, to the influence of Indus
work Panchtantra. They were assigned the duties of helping in the
translation of the various works brought from Sindh by scholars named
Manik, Bhola Ram, Ganga, Dhanwatrai, Sangal and others. These works
included among others Surya-Sidhanta, Arya-Bhat, Khanda-Khandak,
Artha-Shahatra, Mahabharta and a number of other works of which the
original names have been lost, but they have survived through other
names given to them by the Arabs.
The most important of these works was Surya Sadhanta which was
translated into Arabic by Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim al Fazari. The
translation of Sindhanta resulted in the invention of zero hitherto
unknown to the world of scholarship. The zero which the Arabs named
“Sifer” is of capital importance to the science of mathematics and
other allied sciences. It was from this zero that decimal system came
into being and calculations of enormous sums became possible. Even the
numerals now in use in the whole world, were introduced to the Arab
world by the scholars of Sindh and this is attested from the writings
of Arabs themselves.
In the science of Astronomy too, influence of the Sindhi works appears
dominant and this is evident from the works of famous Arab
astronomers. Al-Fazari, Al-Batani, al-Beruni and Al-Khayyam were all
influenced by the principles of Sindhi astronomy. Al-Khawarizmi
prepared his astronomical tables under the influence of Sidhanta and
as such he called it Sindh Hind al-Saghir. Al-Battani under the
influence of Sidhanta, Arya Bhat and Khanda Khandek, make several
emendation to Ptolemy and rectified the calculations for the orbit of
moon and other planets. Umer Al-Khayyam reported to be the first to
prepare solar calendar was chiefly influenced by the Braham Gupt (work
of Sindhi origin). In Braham Gupt the length of the solar year is
known as 365 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 9 seconds as against the
modern calculations which comes to 365 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes and
9-23/100 seconds.
Arya Bhat also believes in the revolution of earth around the sun and
its rotation around its own axis.
The influence of Sindhi works appears to have been much more on Arab
medicine as compared to other sciences. The Arab writers have given
instances in which the Sindhi physicians were consulted by Harun
al-Rashid, the Abbasid Caliph. In one of these cases the Caliph
himself fell seriously ill and he sent for Manka, because his personal
physicians failed.
In another case the cousin of the Caliph was saved from instant death
by Sindhi physician named Saleh Ibn Bhala. Saleh who was a converted
to Islam cured him by using Sindhi mode of cure. Physician Manic is
also credited, with having translated the works of Sushratta and
Chanaya’s works on poison. The medical works of Sindh which have lost
their original names and survived through the Arab names as given by
the Arab scholars are so many.
Sindhis also excelled in zoological sciences. Pal-Kapiah, Brihaspati,
Jay-Dat, Nikal and Gun are reported to have written a number of works
on the treatment of animals, birds and even insects. Pal-Kapiah’s work
Gaj-Warpen principally deals with the diseases of Elephants and their
treatment. His three other works on the animal life namely-
Gaj-Chaktasia, Gaj-Ayurredic and Gaj-Preksha deal with horses,
pedigree, birth stable arrangements, the colour and caste of the
horses and other cattle at large.
In chemistry and botany some works were translated from Sindhi sources
but their influence does not seem to have been more apparent as in
mathematics, astronomy and medicine.
Ibn Nadim has given an account of the number of books which were
translated into Arabic on political and administration. Of these the
work of Chanakiya deals with the arrangement of battles array and the
selection of proper persons suited to their merit. It also deals with
the organisation of army, its discipline, food and the use of poison.
Viyaghar’s work on the other hand deals with the weapons of warfare
specially the swords and their qualities. The most important work on
politics which was translated into Arabic was Arth-Shastra of
Kautaliya, which dealt with the economic system of the state.
Sindh which formed part of the Indo-Pak sub-continent has contributed
greatly towards the science of philosophy from the earliest know
times. Various systems of philosophy existed in the sub-continent as
is evident from Yoga-Sutras, the Samkhya treatises, the Mimasa-Sutras
and a number of other commentaries.
Even the games of Indo-Pak origin appear to have exercised unbounded
influence on the Arabs specially the Chatrang (Shatranj) and Nard
(Chausar). These games which are based on mathematical calculations
represented two different schools of thought of philosophy. The game
of chauser indicates that human being is not a free-agent and his
destiny is guided and controlled by outward powers viz; stars, planets
and men. Chatrang on the other hand teaches that man is a free agent
and he can change bad into good and wrong into right by using his
will-power and intelligence.
The Indus valley civilisation is the most ancient one and when Aryans
invaded the area 4000 years ago the people were living in the most
civilised ways in peace and harmony. They were self-sufficient in food
and other necessities of life, but they never thought of making arms
for aggressions against other nations to grab their lands and wealth.

also contribution of panini

Born: about 520 BC in Shalatula (near Attock), now Pakistan
Died: about 460 BC in India
Show birthplace location
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Panini.html

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited April 17, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
***PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE! *
Nobody is disputing how Islam is the fastest growing and the most supreme religion ever came to earth and will ever come to earth.

My simple question for which I started the thread is to know your reasoning/hypothesis on

*Why Islam didn't win over Indians/Srilankans/Nepalese as much it did on Malaysians, Indonesians, Iranis or Iraqis and the people of Pakistan? *

This is despite 300 years of political control over most of these territories.

**
[/quote]

your question has been answered many times.
and those facts were for anand, not to answer your question.

Dear Secrete_ob,

Take some time and think why you people flow with a little provocation. Islam and a progressive society do not correlate. No doubt Islam is now a mass growing religion in West and America, but it is very less due to conversion, but totally depending on migration. The West is already taking account of it.
The material you have provided is solely from pro Islamic web sites, and you have definitely not reexamined it personally. Today many Western leaders say some words in praise of Islam for votes or for pleasing you people and you flow with the fake praise.

When Islam is questioned you accuse the questioner of ignorance. The day America and west attacked Afghanistan the British PM Tony Blair praised Islam for peace. I assure you that Tony has not learned or studied Islam, but no one questioned him because it was praise, fake off course, is another matter. Tony was making fool of you people.

Problem with you people is that you are given to learn Islam, but are never given to study it.
If you study Islam you will understand why Islam and a progressive society do not correlate. For that you need courage, so far you lack it.

Do you find answer to Kumarkn question?

Best rgds

I think ahmedjee was right to the extent he went.
The Moghuls didn’t care much for converting people.
Infact Akbar, the best of the lot, married a Hindu and even tried to start his own Religion!!!

Islam’s serious conflict with Other Religions started with Aurangzeb, hero for Pakis, zero for Indians!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Aurangzeb’s treatment of Non-Muslims had consequences ofcourse. The Marathas revolted and he spent most of his life in Deccan fighting them!!!

There is app. 450 millions muslims living in southasia today compared to app. 800 million hindues. Islam is a 1400 years old in its form of today while hinduism is 4000 years old. I think it proofs a lot about the succes of Islam in southasia.
According to a muslim friend from india, its impossible to practice Islam in many parts of India. If the muslims of a village want to have a graveyard they are forced to have it far away otherwise fanatic hindues will dig up the graves and burn the bodies including some of the living ones aswell (Gujrat is a proof of such behavior).
Secondly hindues dont accept conversion to Islam and very often kill such persons (this problem is mainly located in rural areas where muslims are few).
Thirdly a lot of "untouchables" dont wanna stay as hindues because of the inhuman treatment they recieve from socalled highcaste people, therefor many of them wants to convert either to Islam or Christianity but cant because of the danger possed to them from highcaste hindues. ( Islam has allways appealled to the suppressed people of the world )

I think most of the muslims living in southasia is desendents of former hindues, we know the reality of hinduism, thats why we are thankfull to our forefathers that they embraced Islam.

Islam is succesfull anywhere in the world if its not the dominant religion in a country then its allmost sure to be the secondlargest.
Islam is spreading faster than any other religion in the world. Every time there is an event which force the world to focus on Islam you will see massconversions to Islam. The rushdie affair did that and after the 11/9 the results are the same. Here in Denmark where I live its the same picture, we saw a lots of Danes embracing Islam after the rushdie affair and we are witnessing the same after 11/9. We now have people converting evey single day. Alhamdulillah.
In Islam everybody no matter race, caste or wealth are welcome on equal terms as "born" muslims, you cant say the same about hinduism which in its nature is rasictically and fasictic (caste system).

To answer your question " did Islam lose its war in India?
the only answer is NO ! If you dont embrace Islam then your children or there children will embrace Islam. Inshallah !
Statistically it will happen sooner or later.

first of all there is no war as such between india and islam . india was invaded by so many groups one of them mughals .
mughals never replaced the native population.
even if you put indian muslim in central asia they will feel they are foriegners.
there is big racial difference between
mughals of central asiaa and indian muslims.
even pakistanis found out when they got stuck in afghanistan's northen alliance where
local taliban figghters were let go and pakistanis were treated without kindness.

numbers does not mean anything .
mushruff speech explains that

Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race

President Musharraf http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1824000/1824455.stm

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
** numbers does not mean anything .
mushruff speech explains that

Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race

**
[/quote]

What does that prove? Does it, God forbid, prove that there is no Allah and that Allah's promise (truth shall prevail in the end) is wrong?

religen is different from followers
you dont get phd as soon as you convert
lot of things you do in life other than religious practises count.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by anand:

Dear Mr. Anand

I have not gotten information from pro Islamic website. the information about conversation of islam in Usa, i got that from

usinfo.state.gov

which is an official us website, I am not sure whether they still have these statsics are not but still i would recommend you to visit it.

Islam is spreading fastly among civilized people ,westreners are the most educated and advanced people. what do you call uncivilized , to choose the greatest religon or to attend pornographic temples and worship candle lit idols of every color, size and shape, green multi-headed god, deities, half man, half animal. many-armed gods; man eating orges; animal gods, blue monkeys, devil gods, pungent incense , naked holy men or sadhus worshiping their favored idol. divide your own people in casts, tret lower cast people as slaves, burn widows with their husbands.

what is your defination of uncivilization???

about kam' s question, that has been answered and disscussed many times.

[This message has been edited by secret_obsession (edited April 18, 2002).]

Secret obssession:

you need to cool down. As Ahmadjee has said, there is no particular answrer to this question. Assuming that you have already answered this question indicates your IQ.

As I have asked in my first post, What do all of you feel as the reason why Islam in under 11% of population in India/Nepal/Srilanka inspite of 1000 years of rule, while in Indonesia, Malysia, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, it has almost wiped out other religions out of its way.

This question is open to all those who are yet to answer! All theories are welcome!!

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Secret obssession:

you need to cool down. As Ahmadjee has said, there is no particular answrer to this question. Assuming that you have already answered this question indicates your IQ.

As I have asked in my first post, What do all of you feel as the reason why Islam in under 11% of population in India/Nepal/Srilanka inspite of 1000 years of rule, while in Indonesia, Malysia, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, it has almost wiped out other religions out of its way.

This question is open to all those who are yet to answer! All theories are welcome!!

**
[/quote]

and Mr. or Miss. kumarakn your judgement indicates your "IQ level"... and the limitations of your analyizing capabilities

havent i said that it has been answered and disscussed many times. off course its not a math or science question for which a "yes" or "no", or "right" or "wrong" answer can be given.
its a disscussion type question , which many people has answerd according to their prospective. so it has been ANSWERED...it's just the limitations of your capibalities to believe that it hasnt been answered.

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:

As I have asked in my first post, What do all of you feel as the reason why Islam in under 11% of population in India/Nepal/Srilanka inspite of 1000 years of rule, while in Indonesia, Malysia, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, it has almost wiped out other religions out of its way.

This question is open to all those who are yet to answer! All theories are welcome!!

**
[/quote]

Why have u included sri lanka and nepal. Muslims never had any influence on these places. Plus, it wasnt only the current territories of india that were ruled by the Muslims. Their rule extended to afghanistan in west and bengal in the east.

The total population of indian subcontinent is approx. 1.30 billion (considering a pop. of 1 billion in India and 300 Million in pakistan & Bangladesh), now even if there are 150 Million muslims in india, it makes a total of 450 million muslims in the sub continent that means they are 34.61% of the population, that is quite handsome.

You must also keep in mind that 99.9% of the muslims of the sub continent were converts.

And if you are talking specifically about the territories included in current state of India then i think it is because hinduism is quite an old religion and it is not easy to make someone change his religion. Of the people who visit the shrines of the muslim saints a large percentage is of hindus. I dont exactly know why they dont convert. Maybe someone from within india can give much better comments on it.

If you are not satisfied with this answer (which is 100% sure keeping in view your past record) I would request you to put forth your own views on this issue so that we, the low IQ class, can benefit from it. As we say in panjabi " hun tu dus ve day !!!"


".........because sad eyes never lie"

[This message has been edited by sadeyes_neverlie (edited April 18, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Secret obssession:

you need to cool down. As Ahmadjee has said, there is no particular answrer to this question. Assuming that you have already answered this question indicates your IQ.

As I have asked in my first post, What do all of you feel as the reason why Islam in under 11% of population in India/Nepal/Srilanka inspite of 1000 years of rule, while in Indonesia, Malysia, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, it has almost wiped out other religions out of its way.

This question is open to all those who are yet to answer! All theories are welcome!!

**
[/quote]

The reason for that is simple the muslim conquerors didnt really want the population to convert so that they could collect jaziya from them. Secondly, they werent really intersted in the missionary work to convert the natives. The work was primarily done by Sufis and it comes to as no surpeise that only areas of high sufi activity (the nortwwest= Pakistan and eastern periphary=bangladesh) has the highest concentration of muslims. And you question that Islam has wiped out other religions or pagan beleif system out of its way....DUH! hello? thats what conversion means funny man. Islam is not like what we call today "hinduism" which is nothing but a generalized term for the different pagans of this region. It would be the same as calling all pre islamic middle eastern population as folloowing ARabism lol.


Thus, spake the Sword...

Even if we take evil eye's maths, Islam still comes a distant second at 30% of south asia, when left and right of south asia , muslims aree majorities.

This is inspite destroying hindu temples many many times all over india. I got a few theories from some people here why Islam failed in India (when compared to Iran or Indonesia).

Anybody else wanna give more theories?

I dont think there is any contest going on here. Nobody ever claimed that Islam is the major religion of the sub continent.

I request you again to put forth your qwn view, what are you afraid of ????

And you can have the gift hampers for winning the "Most Popular Religion of Sub Continent Contest", we dont mind.


".........because sad eyes never lie"

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Even if we take evil eye's maths, Islam still comes a distant second at 30% of south asia, when left and right of south asia , muslims aree majorities.

This is inspite destroying hindu temples many many times all over india. I got a few theories from some people here why Islam failed in India (when compared to Iran or Indonesia).

Anybody else wanna give more theories?**
[/quote]

First of all mind your words, i'm sad eyes and not evil eyes.

Second of all Islam didnt fail anywhere. I have two points in this regard:
1. None of the Islamic rulers or saint ever said anything like " We will convert all the hindus into muslims" so there is no question of failing as they gained a lot and lost nothing.

  1. It was hinduism that failed because it was hindus that converted to Islam not the Muslims that converted to Hinduism. Islam was the winner because it won the hearts of people. It doesnt matter if they were 30% or 50% or 100%, anything above zero is a victory because it lost nothing of its own.

".........because sad eyes never lie"

china and india is too big to conquer
japan was an island all three countries
have their own strong clutural and
religious identity. even pakistan's identity
still closer to india than to iran or arab.