Destiney or FreeWill ??

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

In Quran Allah says that everymans doings are known to Allah even before he is born … then how are we given free will ?

Then does’nt it follow that watever we do in this world is because Allah wanted us to do so ?

So then where does the concept of evil deeds fit in ? Is it not true that withouht Allah’s will even a bird can’nt flap its wing so then it would logically follow then when we do something evil we are obeying gods will ?

Another thing … Allah created everything in this universe then it follows that evil and shatan was created by him too >?

so then why are we accountable for our actions if they are already preordained for us ??

any insight into this matter would be appreciated … this truely a philosophical disscussion so please keep that in mind …

To do in life is to appreciate it. To live life is to lose it. I dont know what I am saying so I will stop saying it.

2

This is trully a great topic. Totally mind-bongling. Lets hear what other have to say....

3

The answer is simple:

  1. Allah is the supreme creator and he has given man a free will. Why? we dont know. And we should not even question his motives.

  2. Allah has told us how we should live and has clearly warned that he will judge us in the end on the basis of our actions. Why? we dont know. And we should not even question his motives.

Allah being all knowing, knows how, when, where, what each of us will do. But he does not interfere. Why? we dont know. And we should not even question his motives.

The key is

"Dont try to understand and explain how and why Allah thinks and what his motives are?

That is why I dont listen to religious leaders who try to explain Allah's mind and motives.

"Ours is not to question why
Ours is just to do and die "

[This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited July 12, 2001).]

4

In case you guys may care....

Hinduism handles this very differently.

Everybody and everything has free will. And these free will of everything and everybody together constitute a mega scaled Reality.

What you do today will affect what you get tomorrow (or may be next birth). It is Karma.

But you can do anything, you are free to do anything, nobody is controlling you to do anything. There is no person or entity sitting above all of us and controlling our actions. There is no judgement day. Hinduism merely "prescribes" us to do our duty unattached. That is all! You don't have to do it.

Everything in Hindusim goes in a cycle that belongs to a system. That system is what we call as Reality and it is what some would refer as God.

Now the system might affect you and give you lemons, it is not fate, it is your own karma coming back!

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 12, 2001).]

5

my little knowledge on this:

Allah knows where you will finally end up (Heaven/Hell). HE told you what is good and what is bad. HE also allowed you to do what you want (pick good or bad). So, Allah knows your mind what kind of choices it will make... HE knows where you'll go.

this really is a very tricky question, and perhaps in Quran or Sunnah we are asked to not to question this detail as it has led other nations in past (before Prophet PBUH) to hell. We are encouraged to look and think about ALLAH's creatures, and NOT to think of what Allah is and what HE thinks/does etc.

Mr Kumarakn, there is some similarity to what you told about Hinduism in Islam. I'm not sure where, but somewhere in Quran Allah told us that any problem we encounter is either for a test or we earned it by our evil deed.

Surely, Allah conceals from those who don't want to beleive and GUIDES those who really seek.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

6

Quick question!

why do you refer to Allah as He? Why not She? or It?

7

simple logic :

Allah knows everything ... then he knows what we will do in life ... in a way it is wat he wants us to do when we do watever that we do ... so then watever we do is really wat allah wants us to do so then where does freewill come in>?

wat I am trying to say is that lets take an example of a computer program me being the programmer I program the program to do things ... and it would do them as I pogrammed it to ... so then can my program really be doing something byitself if everything it does is wat I programmed it to do ?

To do in life is to appreciate it. To live life is to lose it. I dont know what I am saying so I will stop saying it.

8

Its really Divine mercy and grace that saves a person from wretchedness. Hadhrat Adam (Alahis Salaam) recieved it and Iblees La'een (Shaytaan) did not. Why? Allah is the Mighty, the Wise.

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[quote]
Originally posted by AekKella:
**simple logic :

Allah knows everything ... then he knows what we will do in life ... in a way it is wat he wants us to do when we do watever that we do ... so then watever we do is really wat allah wants us to do so then where does freewill come in>?

wat I am trying to say is that lets take an example of a computer program me being the programmer I program the program to do things ... and it would do them as I pogrammed it to ... so then can my program really be doing something byitself if everything it does is wat I programmed it to do ?
**
[/quote]

Try thinking of "Random Numbers" and program your software to behave randomly... can you always predict your software's behavior?

Take an example. you take a little kid to a market where there are TOYS (for kids of that age), and then there is other stuff like baggage, machines or other stuff kid will not be interested in.

Now, you set free that kid, where will he go?
Also note that human mind can predict based on the knowledge base and capacity. And when we talk about Allah, we know that HIS knowledge base we can't even imagine, HIS capacity we can't even think of.... then why can't Allah set us free and know where we end up with?

Perhaps I am still unable to ansewr your question... I have a limited mind, and limited knowledge etc.

Have you heard of term in Urdu "kunwayn(well) ke maindak (frog)"??? who can't think beyond "kunwan" (well).

in comparing Allah we are nothing even that frog.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 12, 2001).]

10

Aslamalaikum,

The answer is simple:
By observing reality we will see that man clearly has free will i.e there are two glasses of drink infront of man one with water the other orange juice. The man is in no way compelled to take one or the other he has free will to choose which he wants.

Similar is that man sees a woman he is atracted to her he can either commit zina or turn away from her. WHY because he has the free will.

Hence this is an attribute Allah has given man and that is how Allah swt will account us on yum ul qiyama by questioning us upon such choices.

As for the knowledge of allah we know he is the supreme all knowing but how does the knowldege of allah affect whether u do a haraam action or a halaal one?

11

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
*my little knowledge on this:
Allah knows where you will finally end up (Heaven/Hell). HE told you what is good and what is bad. HE also allowed you to do what you want (pick good or bad). So, Allah knows your mind what kind of choices it will make... HE knows where you'll go.
*
[/quote]

This explains FreeWill or Destiny :

  1. Allah knows where you will finally end up

2.HE told you what is good and what is bad.

  1. HE also allowed you to do what you want

  2. So, Allah knows your mind what kind of choices it will make...

  3. HE knows where you'll go.

  4. And what choice you will make.

12

You might be interested in reading this thread,
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/002810.html

13

Had Allah wished, He could have created mankind like angels, incapable of committing sin. However, that was not His wish as He had already created angels. Human beings were created capable of making mistakes and when they realize their errors and seek Allah’s forgiveness, the divine attributes of mercy and forgiveness become manifest.

If Allah had immediately placed those headed for paradise in paradise, they would not question Allah’s decision. Those in paradise would happily accept an everlasting life of bliss and be thankful that they were not placed in hell. However, those immediately placed in hell would ask why they were put there. They would feel a sense of unfairness due to their ignorance of what they would of done had they lived on earth. Those in hell would relentlessly argue that had they been given a chance to live out their lives on earth, they would have believed and done good deeds.

Consequently, Allah allows human beings to live out their lives on earth and make all the choices they would have made, so that everyone who enters hell will know that they chose hell by themselves. They will recognise Allah’s mercy in their lives and acknowledge their sin in rejecting His signs and guidance. And they will accept His judgement as being just and beyond reproach:

032.012 If only thou couldst see when the guilty ones will bend low their heads before their Lord, (saying

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

“Our Lord! We have seen and we have heard: Now then send us back (to the world): we will work righteousness: for we do indeed (now) believe.”

006.027 If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with the Fire! They will say: “Would that we were but sent back! Then would we not reject the signs of our Lord, but would be amongst those who believe!”

006.028 Yea, in their own (eyes) will become manifest what before they concealed. But if they were returned, they would certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden, for they are indeed liars.

Furthermore, the Qur’aan makes one thing very clear:

021.023 He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).

Humankind should not question why Allah chose to manifest His attributes in certain ways. It can only be assumed that this was the best way, because Allah describes Himself as being the Most Wise and Most Knowledgeable. Humans can only understand what Allah chooses to reveal to them.

Finally, the fact is that we have already giving a convenant to Allah and therefore free will should not be difficult to understand!

007.172 When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?”- They said: “Yea! We do testify!” (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: “Of this we were never mindful”:

017.044 The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!

I thought that I would add the above ayat, as I believe it to be AWESOME!!

14

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Quick question!

why do you refer to Allah as He? Why not She? or It? **
[/quote]

Changez_Like, a question from your comment.

If Allah knows where we will end up and how we will react then why does he have to put us to test - as claimed by you. He already knows how we are going to act. Then why the test?

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 13, 2001).]

15

so I ask again ...

is allah not the most powerfull and capable of everything ? answer to that is YES

so then allah knows wat we will do in life ... before we are born !

now lets look at the defination of destiny:

des·ti·ny (dst-n)
n. pl. des·ti·nies
The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control: “Marriage and hanging go by destiny” (Robert Burton).
The power or agency thought to predetermine events: Destiny brought them together.

k so by the defination then watever allah knows before we are born WILL happen ... becuase if it does'nt happen that way then we are saying that allah did'nt see it right (tobaastkhwar)...

so now ... even though becuase of relativity it seems that we make the choice when picking up a orange juice can or water but if allah knows which one we are going to pick up then is not destined for us to pick one up!!??

so then in the broader sense then is their freewill ?

To do in life is to appreciate it. To live life is to lose it. I dont know what I am saying so I will stop saying it.

16

Very illogical argument.

  1. Allah knows you fate.
  2. He has made you responsible for your fate which is dependent on your actions

These two statements ar not mutually exculsive. Becasue Allah by definition is all knowing and all powerful. He/She can do anything.

17

Once, a man came to Imam Ali (AS) and asked him this exact question about Destiny or Free Will.

Imam Ali (AS) replied:

"Lift one leg up"

So the man lifted one leg.

Then Imam Ali (AS) said "lift the other leg".

the man said "I cannot, I'll fall down".

Imam Ali (AS) said "Allah has given you freedom to lift one leg, but you are still restricted by His created nature. Similarly, you are free to practice your will to some extent, but are still restricted by destiny"
(not exact quotation)

[This message has been edited by alizadeh2000 (edited July 14, 2001).]

18

There is no prohibition on asking questions, at many instances God says in Qur'an, "O Muhammad, they ask you regarding ... say to them ...". Yet at other places there are nations/people who suffered God's anger because of their questioning. The difference has been in attitude. If you question to understand God's law, you're most welcome- however, if you question to undermine his law, that is not acceptable really.

We have complete freedom in our actions, yet all are known by God. What I am going to do in the next minute is known to Him, but He does not guide it. Simply put, knowledge does not imply control. He has the knowledge of my actions, but does not make me do sins for instance. I do not know my future and everything rests on my present actions.

Regards,
Omer

19

This is a massive, massive question. I always choose to look at it in the following way.

Einstein posed the question 'Does God play dice?' By asking such a question, he was referring to the process of chaos and entropy which seem to govern the universe.

Consider, Allah (swt) has created the universe and laid upon it certain laws under which it behaves. The laws of physics/science. As individuals existing within the confines of space, and the universe, Allah (swt) has created for us a series of tests. These are the tests that we all, as human beings, encounter everyday. We have the option - Halal or haram? And we make our choice as we see fit.

At the time you are posed with the option -halal or haram- you have free will. This free will determines which way you go. In a sense, at that point 'God is playing dice.' Although Allah (swt) knows what you will choose, he does not influence it. This is not to say he cannot influence. We must be very careful to distinguish between the two concepts. He does not, but he can - as Allah is all powerful.

Let me illustrate it this way. In physics there is, whats known as the uncertainty principle. This states that the more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known.

Consider an electron fired from an electron gun toward an electron detector over a distance of 20 metres. Using all the scientific knowledge we have in the world at this moment in time there is no way to say what the electron does between leaving the electron gun and it being detected by the detector. So, whilst we know (there is nothing to suggest otherwise) that the electron will travel in a straight path from the gun to the detector, there is no way of guaranteeing that it actually does/] this. So, in practise the electron could do anything in the time span between being fired from the electron gun and being detected by the detector. It **could travel there in a series of semi-circular motions, although we know it won't.

In the same respect Allah (swt) knows what we will do but does not directly interfere with our free will. Of course, for Allah there is no uncertainty principle. To understand the uncertainty principle is to understand Allah, which is impossible with our minds. By understanding it - we could mathematically calculate up to the big bang, and hence know what caused it and started the universe.

We have our choices - they are ours to make. We will be made to account for the wrong ones we make. May Allah give us strength and knowledge to aid us in making the right choices.

This is a fascinating subject - I'm glad someone posted it.

20

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Quick question!

why do you refer to Allah as He? Why not She? or It? **
[/quote]

Because He looks and sounds mightier and stronger then She (feminine) or It (thing).

Btw, look up the word He in the dictionary with an capital h, you will know that it holds more meanings to it then just being used for describing ones sex.