Desis, urdu..and english, and the in between stuff

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
1

This is an appeal to the self proclaimed elite and supposed westernized people of Pakistan.

Just two words…“QUIT IT”

explanation? Okay, lets start.

What is wrong with our language? Besides the fact that if you are not used to writing in it, you may feel an early onset of carpal tunnel syndrome. But that has more to do with one’s one laziness and lack of practice.

Urdu is a beautiful language. It has a massive vocabulary adopted from Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit , Turkish etc. Now I am not a linguist in the least but, I do know that there are many items for which there are no urdu words and if there are, no one really knows them, so the English words were adopted like engine and ummm radio etc etc. Hey, I am okay with that as long as we dont have to make corny words up like hindi-purists did in india with phak-phak ada = train station ( ya think I jest?..moi 100% serious amigos).

Now this brings us to the usage of urdu. Or rather… lack thereof

Scenario#1; You are born in the UK, Canada, USA etc etc, your folks did a lousy job of teaching you urdu and consequently, you cant read or write and cant speak much, what you do speak..its tainted with a heavy accent which reminds me of the standard indian movie western villain with the name “Robert” or “Zibisco”. But that is still agreeable…situation caused by circumstances beyond and individual’s own control. Now one can take the personal initiative to learn the language later on in life, and I know of some who have done it. But if you dont, you dont.. the fact that yer urdu kinda stinks now is for teh same reason as why the english of most recent imports from pakistan stinks.. lack of exposure and practice etc etc. But really, That is not teh group I wonder about.

Scenario#2: You grew up in the middle east…hmmmmm question is, why is your urdu bad and hopping along with a “western” accent. If we take into account the same criteria as discussed in the previous example..should you not be speaking urdu with an arabic accent and mixing arabic words like “Ya Habeebi, Ateeni aik panni ka glass, shukran”. Its my impression that desis growing up in middleeast feel like expatriates of teh second degree compared to those in europe and North america ( and australia perhaps) ..thus trying to be all western…but folks.. you are spotted a mile away J Those Hara Jeans have got to go, and the whole nike and reebok heyday is gone, so quit dressing like an extra from “footloose” and chill. On a positive side though, most of these folks are in another country and with limited opportunities to use urdu on an everyday basis since they are in international schools most of the times. Again parents fault and all…but its slightly ummmm dodgy shall we say.

Scenario#3: yer rear went out of Pakistan 3 times to see your Uncle Afzal in UK and BaraBing Baraboom…all of a sudden you have been transformed to a major..“wannabe” big time. Now this type of person speaks urdu with such pain that you wonder if they are having a stroke" Mummmeeeeee Humm ko Steak Khana hay, I dont want to eat nihaaaareee" YO!!! Grow up babe, you are only like 23..sheesh quit yer whining. What is with that steeeeeewpid accent, no one buys it, and no..I will not think for an instance that you are from abroad… in some cases maybe..until I hear ya talk. And for the last time..NO I did not see the new video of backstreet boys and no I do not keep up with every sitcom.

So people mentioned in scenario #2. We will address your concerns in some later posting. I am wondering about the group mentioned in scenario#3. Everytime I go to Pakistan, someone has to try to inform me how mod they are since they went to this private dance party where all different alcoholic beverages were being served. Oh and they can help you you want some pot. Whoooooooo Peeeeeeeee. Friggin highschool and college sophomore year all over again. Err no thanks, and ummmm GROW UP!!!
Then off course you have to know every single episode of melrose place. “hey did you see teh one with. Blah blah blah blah..” ummmmmm NO!! Shooo Scram Beat it. Wastin yer own life id oki just dunn waste mah time with this insane chit chat about things that dont mean jack.

I dunno what everyone else’s views are on this, but I am fairly certain that I will deck someone next time I am in Pakistan if they ask me about Madonna’s new album.

In the end, all I hafta say is..urdu likhye, urdu parrhiye, urdu boliyey… Thank You :stuck_out_tongue: heh

On another note, I was driving in Karachi..and I saw something its called the “urdu dictionary board” and it says so in english, which is kewl, but also in urdu it says “urdu dictionary board” using urdu alphabet. Lamers…it should be “idara-e-lughat-e-urdu” if a peasant like yers truly knows that, why cant ya pompous urdu linguists inside that building know J

sigh Its a Monday.

2

Could this be a **gora-wannabe" affliction?

3

Fraudia yaar, couldn't stop laaafffing for a minute there. :)
So true...so deplorable...such a shame.

I have been wondering about the same since quite a while.
Keeping aside the notions of ABCDs FOBs and the like...(I don't feel so comfortable in
using these and I don't want to categorize people on this basis), you have rightly observed
this trend/fashion in our people. I wouldn't say that I or people I know never did this.
I think all of us who're the first generation out of the country or children of such belong
to this group. Lekin...you know what yaar, have you analyzed what causes this.

Here is what I have observed...totally personal opinion :

-> when in Pakistan, people all around you commuicate in Urdu. You donot understand its
significance, you know it...do hell with "Learning" Urdu. You wanna learn English, and
more so the American English, da' cule English.

To be quite honest, when I was doing my O' and A'Levels, I and a bunch of my friends
took Urdu just as to get that extra A on your G.C.E.
The night before the Urdu exam in A-Levels, people watched Umraao-Jaan the movie, twice,
aur chall diyey munh uthhaa key... Well, for one good thing I did read the book, but
still everyone got an A (can't blame the University of London there cuz they're least
concerned with the Urdu language...it's us who should be!)

-> Secondly yaar, the infuence of the U.S. is so much more in the East than it is anywhere
else. For all that I have observed in Canada, on the weekends I work for an Educational
Center where I interact with International students. A student from Europe comes as a
new-comer with broken english...little idea of pronounciation. Lekin jee, an Indian
or a Pakistani...angraizee aisee boleyN gey key!! Its in our system, too much emphasis
on English. You've quoted a live example about the Dictionary Board.

4

Umar Talib and Fraudia:

I think you would find tons of intellects who would agree with you in this. What is it that they say, "You can take a man outta jungle but you can;t take the jungle outta man." Or something like that.

Ultimately what differentiates the educated and well cultured masses from the not-so-educated/cultured is this trend of abandoning your heritage.

Its good that we have each other to talk about this, whereas desi who first emigrated here didn;t know the ramifications of cultaure abandonment. I guess you can say that we now know better about the consequences of abandoning your culture/religion and those of us who learn from them will be sleeping much better at night. Literally!! :)

5

sleeping better at night?
My postingsbore you that much ghalib? :p

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Could not let this thread die :>

Urdu Likhye, Urdu Parrhiye, Urdu Boliye, .... Thank You :>

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one more try

8

Ok you are successful on this try :)

I cannot say anything about those ABCDEFG people but the people in Pakistan portraying that they are not in Pakistan or belong to some other world, for me its purely a sign of inferiority complex. I have seen people never been out of Pakistan, but act as they have lived all their life in USA ;)

The example you have quoted for urdu board is a solid proof that how serious as a nation we take this problem. Even after making several announcements and datelines, Urdu has not been established as an official language for the government offices.

9

I don’t believe I missed this post.

Ok since every one agrees with each other, let me be the kali bheR

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

I remember a line from Insha jee’s book, and I think he is said something like this, we have so many poet, and urdu daan etc. in Pak history, people are getting educated in urdu literature and stuff, while what we really need is technical education. So we can borrow some of our poets and writers to the nations in need, and in return we can borrow some of their technical schools ect.
And if only getting educated in urdu literature, meant that the educated one would speak urdu.

Why do we have so many inferiority complexes, we are ashamed of our language (we should read more about the struggle for a national language in India), we are ashamed of our cloths, our skin color, our culture, our heritage (some can’t even see that we have it!)

Although this thread is discussing Urdu, but since a nation’s language is its greatest ’pehchan’, I wonder where this will take us. To a deep black hole with sharmindagi and pashemani. Why are we so sharmindah?

Did I miss the point, maybe I did but this is what I had to say. :slight_smile:

[This message has been edited by sabah (edited October 01, 1999).]

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Latest stats about Pakistan I read somewhere show that only 8% of Pakistani population speaks Urdu. Percentage of Indians literate in Hindi, I am sure,is greater than that but fact still remains that majority of the population does not speak these languages in respective countries. Now you will say that...but majority of them understands it. There is difference between understanding and speaking and living a language. I understand English...hell I am certified(TOFL etc ..you know what I mean) as literate in English...but I don't think I will ever understand or live the English culture as I do my own. Same rule applies to majority of the Pakistani population. There is Balochi culture, Punjabi culture, Sindhi culture etc. in Pakistan. Is there something called Urdu culture? no. You cann't expect people to follow something that does not exist. A culture cann't be created out of some political necessity so that people can stick together as a nation. There got to be some other ways to bring people together as a nation. Language could be one of them but if its not common among them it is not.

Also its very hypocritic and amusing of us to preach about our languages in English, speak Englsih with our friends, write in it, listen to English music, watch english TV, be proud that we can write and speak better English that others and then say people back home cann't do that. Why not? Oh I forgot. They are not in USA. They are in Lahore or Peshawar. So people in Lahore and Peshawar has a moral obligation to do that but we are free of it?
I think the reason foreign based Desis complain too much about some well to do families back home following Englsih culture, and speaking English is that, they feel that we had to leave our homeland to achieve or possess what their couterparts were able to do back home comfortably living in their own country. Jealous? May be that is the case.

Finally, I will say. Let people speak their mother languages and learn whatever other languages they need for their professional needs. That will make them proud and more close to their land. A great way to love one's country.

Here is a very universal slogan...unlike a very narrow minded one given above by anohther poster.

maan boli je bhull javo ge.
kakhaN vaangoN rull javo ge.

Translation: If you forgot your mother tongue, you will get lost like a straw (in a tornado)

Note: Above slogan does not name the language. Whatever it is, without any discrimination.

CM

11

lol

thats an excellent example of generalizing ppl into one category just cause they are regarded as ABCD's whatever

nope Fraudia dear it all depends on family values and how much close and dear one holds his customs and traditions to his heart ...

example my Dad

u wont believe that man ....
every week on wednesdays he travelled a distance(it was a long drive to the indian grocery store from our house) just to buy the urdu newspaper which he made me read, understand and write....

though i hated it at that time but now i understand what knowledge he had bestowed on me by force maybe but it was just an act of love

12

I have personally not been around the type of people in your scenarios so can't say much on that. However, I personally prefer to use English (and my English is as poor as my Urdu and Punjabi even though I was born and raised in Lahore -- ah, some people are just born with it!) over Urdu.

I think your post is more a pointer to the people who speak English for ostentation than any drawbacks in using a different language based on personal choice and liking. Using a language can be an individual choice for different reasons. And if a language is used to promote one's pretense then I agree with you but if you mean to promote Urdu as an overall preference in any scenario then I disagree.

I think two languages, unlike two cultures, can be measured and compared superlatively as the parameters involved are fewer and bit more objective. E.g. communicativeness, variety in expression, flexibility to adopt newer ideas and words, extensibility in terms of novel, contemporary meaning to the existing words/expressions, commonality of usage/understanding across the globe (yep, don't ignore this one), and perhaps most importantly, ability to offer all of the above at varying (formal, informal, casual, official, colloquial) levels..

I find English to be a preferable mean of communication compared to Urdu based on all the parameters pointed out above. Using it more than Urdu is a pretty natural and valid reason and it may result in loss of heritage eventually, but over the span of years and generations, heritage itself changes and adopts to ever evolving customs.

Looking at the heritage itself, it can be seen that most of the social customs in practice today are actually relatively young compared to our ethnic existence in the sub-continent. Of course they are derivatives of the old ones -- going back to the very start may be, but this derivativeness itself proves that cultural heritages do not remain the same forever. They evolve as people themselves evolve due to change in their taste, preference, and convenience. That’s just how social dynamics work. Do you think Urdu really reflects this evolution by actually incorporating English words in their complete form, but not as derivatives of its own? It’s probably promoting English more than itself by doing so.

13

Fraudia Bro,

Give us ABCDs (African born Confused Desis) a break will ya. How do you think a person like me born and raised in the jungles of Africa, surrounding by none other than Swahili speaking people, ever learn to speak 'nafees Urdu'?? Learning to read and write regular Urdu ,let alone the 'Nafees' version of it, was challenging enough. The result is a hodgepodge language (I like to call it Urdu), tainted with Swahili, English, Punjabi and 10%Urdu. Call it pidgin Urdu if you will, but it is Urdu all the same. Now what more do you expect of us?? I can produce my own 'Diwan-e-Habshi' using this new version of the Urdu language. Who says us Desis have forsaken our heritage. We just modified things a bit that's all

[This message has been edited by Antidote (edited October 04, 1999).]

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dear fraudia sahib i tottaly agree but we should remember Chines did not succeed with english so did Japnese and French but those cultures first got rid of those sob,s who were brits loyal. we have tons of brits loyals who un frtntly are our leaders they lead us and each step of the way they ground us. :)

15

Well, English certainly should be taught in Pakistan because it is the universal language and so it's importance can't be denied. Still, Urdu is a beatiful language and every effort should be made to preserve it. Urdu has differnt kinds of depth to English and if we lose it we will lose some of our soul. While English has it's strentghs it is lacking in romance and poetic value. I find it seriously disturbing when so many of the films these days (especially Indian) seem to consist of half desi, half English dialogue. Something is definitely lost.

16

I just find it amusing... but sometimes rather sad about people's complexes regarding heritage. I was taught urdu by my parents from an early age. I was 14 when we moved to Pakistan. Even after growing up in Uk and saudi and going to english schools, it was shameful to see my peers' level of urdu. Offcourse the fashionable aunties never said "shabaash baita, aap ki urdu bohhat acchi hai" but alway said..."no no you are lying you did not grow up in the UK"
sigh i guess it was expected that I would speak like the western ghunda from indian movies...the previously discussed "robert" character.

17

To all those who consider themselves to be 'Urdu-daan' - please listen up....

YOU may have been some of the lucky ones whose parents shuttled you back and forth to the Watan-e-aziz. Some of our parents themselves grew up in foreign lands and had little or no contact with the Watan. Moreover, they had nothing/noone to go back to, 'Home' to them was and still is where they lived. Considering the circumstances, it is commendable that they passed on whatever cultural values they knew of to their children, so let's not get too carried away with our inconstructive criticism. Why is it important for anyone to be able to speak Urdu anyway.

18

You are missing the point..

It is not that we are pointing out that people are speaking Urdu with a weird dialect.. especially the ones who grew outside of pakistan ....

But the pakistani who have never even set an eyelash outside of pakistan speaking urdu like they have never spoken the language before in their life..

the point also is that like my parents, who made an extraordinary effort to teach me urdu and english, others can do so as well..
but then it is their perogative.

19

blackzero,

That's a good summation.

20

Wow excellent thread fraudia...and I agree..but you know what?

I tried to learn how to read Urdu by taking farsi..and while I was in the classes I could read really well..but when you get out of practice..it stinks....

But, it is a personal choice and such is life..what we find important will not be as important to others.