Re: Desi larkian need to...
nicely put sadzz and very true..
Re: Desi larkian need to…
so are these girls in abusive situations that they dont have the guts to get out of? Are they being mistreated?
Because if you’re talking about the typical griping that goes on between a girl and her husband/in-laws, that’s normal. I would face that nonsense to preserve a good family life if I had to. I’d speak out about it, but that’s my approach. I think in this thread we’re talking about really extreme situations. Like domestic abuse (which unlike what ghulail says, is the same thing as domestic violence 
) and verbal abuse.
I cannot for one second believe that these girls are accepting it if their husbands are putting them down every day. And if they’re not doing anything about it now, then they most likely will later on.
And like I said, there will be girls who will get educated and still not have the spine to stick up for themselves. things get complicated especially when kids are involved, and choices are tough to make. Leaving is a hard decision and its the last resort. We’re not saying that education should lead a girl to leave the moment things get bad. She should actually have the guts to stay and try to fix things and make things better.
But in MOST cases, I think having an education helps. Like Sadiyah says, what does a girl do when her husband dies? How will she feed her kids. I’m telling you, I have a bachelors and the jobs I can find are pretty much all garbage and stuff I’d only do on a temporary basis. You want to have a comfy middle-class lifestyle? Right - open up a business (which requires that entrepreneurship talent which not everyone has), or go to professional school. Or just work long hours and save every penny of it. Which is darn hard to do when you’re a single mom.
In today’s societies, an education is so necessary, its not even funny. I dont really think many people have the luxury of not having an education anymore. Things are just way easier if you have one. Granted , to get thru a bad marriage or spouse death or whatever requires a lot of bravery too. Some of that will come from educational experience - some of it from your own life experiences too.
Many med school girls I know have not really experienced life, sadly. They’re smart and great at memorizing, but that’s basically it. They’re not necessarily independent. Not because the education didn’t provide the opportunity. It did. They just never took it.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
PCG, all ur arguments are good.. but they're very very hypothetical.
Plus, it depends on where ur living. One hypothetical solution is not the cure for every society. At least not in pakistan.. and in regards to ur bachelors, dont completely disregard it... in some societies, even 10th grade is a very very high achievement.
It's not the level of education you get that makes u confident or intelligent.. its how u use that lil bit of education u got that makes u smart..
b/w the most intelligent and confident women ive seen are those that havent even got an education.. honest
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Plus, it depends on where ur living.
Expand on this one - I'm intrigued. An example would be great.
One hypothetical solution is not the cure for every society.
I dont know how many times I have to stress this. The solution of educating girls is ONE solution - its not The Cure. It wont end Everything. But it will help a great deal.
It's not the level of education you get that makes u confident or intelligent.. its how u use that lil bit of education u got that makes u smart..
Exactly - its what I've been trying to say in some way or form or the other. But you put it very succintly.
b/w the most intelligent and confident women ive seen are those that havent even got an education.. honest
I haven't seen this in my experience. By the way, if you have the following scenarios - how would you think the "intelligent and confident" woman would react?
- Sexual/Domestic abuse from husband
- Husband dies and harassment from in-laws.
- Rape - non-marital
- Verbal abuse - emotional abuse from husband and in-laws.
Just to get a feeling for what you think is a strong woman.
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as in, eduacted people in pakistan deal with things very differently in comparison to educated people in the west… in a 3rd world country, education is a privledge, no matter how little… in the west it aint…
in regards to abuse.. in the west you have lots of support and help if ur found in an abusive relationship.. wat can someone do in pakistan? in some families its just accepted… but pls.. lets not go off topic with this yeah? i was just giving an example
but a solution is to cure something no? i thought it went hand in hand… hmmm .. again, what education does for someone is dependant on where they live.. as i said before, education in some places doesnt do much… in the case of a very close fam friend, i know she gets abused for being educated… verbal excuse i meant, not physical…
at least we agreed on something 
believe me… some of the strongest (and the weakest) women are in my fam…
first, i doubt she’d get into a position like that.. if she did, im pretty sure she’d use physical abuse back in order to protect herself…
if she’s strong.. im sure she’d speak up and shut the inlaws up…
she’d prob go to the police… if that doesnt work, im sure she’d make a spectacle of the guy and make sure he got the punishment he rightly deserved
i know for a fact shes had to deal with this (from inlaws) and she’s faught back.. shes not one to sit quiet and listen to it all.
someone who speaks up and gets their point across, thats what i call a strong woman… she doesnt necessarily have to be a graduate of any sort
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And you dont think education gives SOME women courage to get their point across?
No, I dont think one solution has to be an end all cure for something. Each problem is multi-faceted. Abuse towards women in general in Pakistan comes in all styles and for different reasons. For some girls, I think it is the lack of education that puts them in a compromised position. They either can't fight back because they dont have enough courage, or they know that even if they do, they can't go anywhere after a divorce. They'll end up begging or prostituting, so its better in their opinion to stay with an old fart who's abusing them.
Therefore, to end abuse, the solution has to be multifaceted. Some women need to work on confidence, some need a back-up plan in case of divorce, etc - and then the problem needs to be attacked from the other side as well. Boys need to be raised differently in that country. I honestly think that things out there are so bad that they should look into having a How-to-respect-women Class in their school since they're kids. Then of course the govt needs to get its act together and execute rapists and abusers in the right way.
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**as in, eduacted people in pakistan deal with things very differently in comparison to educated people in the west... in a 3rd world country, education is a privledge, no matter how little... in the west it aint...
in regards to abuse.. in the west you have lots of support and help if ur found in an abusive relationship.. wat can someone do in pakistan? in some families its just accepted**
Again the West-East distinction. Gawd.
Education should be made available to all in Pakistan - it should not have to be a privelege, which is what we're arguing in this thread...it would help alleviate problems. In fact, I think you subconsciously accept it by this above statement of yours. Otherwise why make a distinction?
I think if girls just spoke up more and were more brave, then the in-laws would begin to change as well. The accepted norm of abuse would change. I see it changing in many families - especially in the city where many girls are being educated and they're no longer afraid to speak out.
I compare my grandmother's generation and my generation - there is a zameen-asmaa difference in the women.
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PCG, im not saying that education does nothing for women. Im saying, it depends.
I think people are blinded.. they believe that a degree in something gives them a backbone. I believe, that confidence, self esteem, power exists in all of us... for some education is the appliance that brings it out.. for others, its life in general that helps build that spine of theirs...
education is not just something u get behind university doors.. its everywhere. Its by talking to people, reading, listening.. growing ur network.. widening ur world.. thats education. If a female spends her entire life in the same society, in the same place, regardless of the degree she holds... she's not going to be any different from the ghareeb lady next door whose not had the privledge of reading or learning ABC..
confidence and self-esteem comes from inside us... some of the strongest women exist in ghareeb mud houses.. these women are amazing people.. u should listen to their stories of courage.. of working and feeding the entire fam... those women have respect in my eyes..
i know of one who murdered her husband too.. i think cus he used her hard earned money for drugs and alcohol... amazing really...
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i was only giving an example dude… of how education is different from region to region… :halo:
no, and i still dont think education makes THAT much of a difference but i do agree, it should be made compulsory in pakistan. Like here in OZ, every kid has to study at least upto 10th grade.. and most government schools are free so they dont have an excuse not to go… khair.. off topic
u wont believe this, but women in my family in my nani and dadi ma’s generation were much much stronger than those of my generation..
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Trend is reversed in the families I've seen. You are lucky, I think to have such a family then.
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Yeah, am lucky but sad to see that the females of my generation arent the same..
U should see some of the aunties i know here (in OZ).. honestly they've not done anything past year 10, but they are such strong women Mashallah. Some of them are running their homes by themselves.. some have their own businesses and organisations... its the educated ones that are more jaahil in comparison...
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maybe they're more spoiled?
And also you know what? Education - university type - requires a lot of time. So much energy counts in the education alone, so its hard to do practical goals outside of that.
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This question is for the individuals who strongly believe that education is not everything:
Hypothetically speaking, one ends up with a horrible husband. The lady has tried her best, but things don't seem to be working out. She thinks of separating, however, her parents and relatives aren't in accord with it and believe that the lady should keep up with it.
No one seems to understand her situation except for herself and she's tried everything, but her husband is not willing to change.
Please do enlighten me as to what type of lifestyle would she be able to maintain if she happens to be a high school grad and is out looking for a job to survive on her own, as compared to the another lady who is the exact same situation, however, she happens to have a degree in a decent program (or perhaps even a masters)?
Now honestly speaking, I don't think it would be very wise for a high school grad to move out and start living on her own with a high school degree at least in North America. That is because the type of job one could get with such level of education is not enough to maintain a decent lifestyle.
In fact, minimum wage is not even enough to keep one from falling below the poverty line. You've got to be making a lot more than the minimum wage in order to prevent one from falling below the poverty line.
By no means am I propagating the idea that women should not compromise, but storm out the door over a petty issue and never return home. However, we've all got to try and safeguard our future to the best of our ability. It may not be bad husband, but it could be that one's husband gets ill and is unable to work, or one is widowed (God forbid). In such a situation, earning money could be very difficult unless you have a decent amount of education.
I only raised this issue because I see a lot of females getting married left and right and alhamdulillah I'm very very happy for them. I just hope they do finish their education even after getting married and try to think in long term and not make the assumption that life would be all good after marriage like it is often portrayed in movies and dramas.
I strongly believe in planning long term and having a few contingency plans just in case things don't turn out as expected.
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Amen woman! Preach on. I need to stop hearing about what the world is going to think about you if you decide to grow a backbone and decide to be independent.
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The part I agree completely...
[quote]
Boys need to be raised differently in that country
[/quote]
I would like to add, "Boys and girls need to be raised differently"
And these reforms are needed badly in lower middle class and poor families, where parents are uneducated. Basic education is a must for raising better quality children.period.
In middle class/upper middle class pakistan, these problems are not severe i.e domestic abuse/voilence. And If I tell the truth, (which most girls will not appreciate) that most of problem women are facing in middle class pakistan are caused by other women.
See the example of few threads (SIL is comming, MIL's treatment) where husband is only a spectator. women are the cause of domestic trouble.
In Pakistani middle class society...
**1. 80% domestic troubles are caused by women.
Women do Jadoo tona (Black magic) to make other women's life miserable. (which includes considerable number of so called 'educated women')
Most of the cases of domestic trouble are caused by MIL or DIL, in either case both abuser and victim is a women.
Ratio of domestic (physical) voilence by men, is very low in middle and upper middle class. But it is quite high in lower middle class and lower class society due to lack of education of Mother and lower quality of brought up **...
so please refer to the start of this post.
I aint no expert on western desi family life style, so wont comment on that. But surely they have there own set of problems. And Man is not the 'only evil force of nature' there :p
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and she went to china for that ? u talkin big without having any essence of it. i wud love to enlighten some regarding hadiths n some info but i m afraid its just not worth it. u molding this thread to a JOKE. have fun with it.
safe^
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^ Her point is that Aisha (R) was an educated woman. Going to China to study isn't meant to be taken literally (though there's nothing wrong with it) but rather, women should fight for their right to study and go to school and be educated and be able to have a career, whether they actually will work or not. We're taught in Islam that we are supposed to be given the highest status in society but unfortunately that's not the case in our culture. If it's good enough for the women in the prophet's (SAW) family, then it's good for us, no?
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^ she was?..r u sure?..i dont really think so…this is just one of those pcg’s pearls.
she had just spent one of the longest period with the Prophet (pbuh) compared to other wives, being one of his favorite and youngest wives.
So she had the largest collection of Hadith and Sunnah to recall and narrate…she was an Islamic scholar, yes..but i dont think she was knowedgleable abt other stuff…
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^ err... she was a great and a well-known Islamic scholar of her time. People used to come up to her seeking answers to their questions. This is not the time to be quoting sources, nor do I have the amount of time required for it, otherwise I would've done so.
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^ err, thats exactly what ghulail has just said, key word being Islamic scholar.