Re: Desi larkian need to...
Um... what?
Your last sentence makes no sense. Are you trying to say that rape and abuse victims are the type who worry about "im too fat/ugly/short etc etc" and that they really are victims is BS? .....
Re: Desi larkian need to...
**I don't know any stats but I would say rape and abuse are higher than they were before women's lib movements.
As an example, women back in the 1600s had some admirable balls. One woman got abused and four women from the village went and beat up her husband. This was when women weren't even persons and it was Church doctrine that women were to be subjugated for their original sin.
As for playing the poor powerless victim, of course they play the victims. Isn't the first thing these women are told, "it's not your fault?"**
Woaaaaaaaaah.
First off before you make a sweeping statement like rape and abuse are higher after women's lib, at least specifiy the country you're talking about and bring some stats to the table. Otherwise, you're only talking about your opinion which could be wrong, and you're also giving the impression that women's lib has actually led to more hurt towards women and therefore its a bullcrap movement. Knowing your usual opinions on the matter and knowing how you think feminization is bullcrap, at least I get this impression - I'm sure others do as well. So clarify your position and back it up with proof. Otherwise, you are what I think you are. A girl who used to be rebellious to get attention from men and is now reverting to traditional village-y Pakistani beliefs and supersititions to be "accepted" and approved by other men.
Secondly, how can you state one example and say that look - women had balls back then and now they dont after women's lib? This is the most stupid thing I've ever read, and having taken philosoph courses (you that is), I'd think you would be better able to construct an argument. If you put forth this example, I can put hundred's where women didn't walk out of an abusive relationship. I can even put forth plenty of examples in Pakistan alone where women have commanded more respect for themselves and are leading happier lives as a result of the independence they've gained from their education.
Third, if a woman is raped or punched or bruised because she didn't bring dinner to the table (having done some social work, I can tell you such things do happen), then how is it her fault? I really cannot see any reason for why a woman being raped or such would be her fault. Could you clarify as to under what circumstances it is a woman's fault for being raped? We'll look at it in terms of Pakistan, since Pakistani girls are under discussion here. Thanks.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
*How about some pre-emptive measures, like self esteem training or something. *
OK genius. That's exactly what Sadiyah is saying in her initial post. Wow, some people are dumb.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
pcg can u back yr argument abt how u just dont see the same courage and self-confidence in the girls who hadnt been educated?
how many pakistani village women do u know personally?
Re: Desi larkian need to...
One other thing.
There are two distinct situations:
One - A girl gets raped.
Two - A girl gets raped and doesn't do anything about it.
Its in the second scenario that you know there is a self-esteem problem and that a girl can help herself by becoming stronger (as Sadiyah says, education is a major factor, but not the only one, as other girls here say).
But there is nothing that a girl can do to prevent scenario one that girls are not already doing, and that hasn't been stressed by women's lib movements and organizations.
Women's lib is not going and saying - hey walk in the streets late at night, because that diminishes your chances of getting raped. It rather works the other way. Women's lib says, lets make the streets safer at night so girls dont have to worry about being raped at night. Islam was a feminist movement in a way. It worked both ways though, unlike Western women's lib. It said, lets make the streets safer at night so that if a woman has to walk at night, she can. And it also said to women and men, take responsibility and take even further steps to ensure that you wont be raped - travel with an escort at night, and don't wear anything that will bring attention to you.
Pakistanis, I would think, would be taking the Islamic approach, which actually already encompasses the Western lib approach. They're not doing a good job of it, but that's another story.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
The women who beat up the abusive guy happened in England. As quoted in Alison Wall's Power and Protest in England, 1525 - 1640. Do you see that happening now? Nope, the woman usually goes to the hospital with a broken nose (if she doesn't fix it in her own bathroom) and says she walked into the door (wow, some people are dumb) and the cycle repeats ad nauseum until she grows enough balls to actually get out of the situation.
And education is not enough. Or else abuse against women would be dead.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
when you do social work, you see how most of the uneducated girls lack the courage and self-confidence.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
When you go to highschool, you see how nearly ALL the girls lack self confidence. No matter what their background. When you go to university, you consistently see the same thing.
And the strongest, bravest women I know don't even know how to spell "education".
Re: Desi larkian need to…
Ghulail , trace back my comments and tell me where you see me saying that uneducated girls are ALL spineless?
:nono: don’t put words in my mouth. You’re just like SaraSplendor. A traditional-minded woman.
Here’s what I’m saying:
Scenario: Population A.
Population A is comprised of 100 girls. (Lets take a large n).
All 100 girls are denied (DENIED) access to higher education. They’re only allowed to go up until, lets say, grade 10. So they matriculate from matric.
The population lives alongside Population B - comprised of 100 men. All these men are allowed to go up until bachelors, or masters, or Ph.D. or M.D. or J.D. or whatever degree they want. There is complete freedom for men to take on whatever profession they want, etc.
Population A has 10 women that are natural born leaders. They’re the kind you can’t mess with because they have no problem in putting you in their place. Their husbands know this. They made sure to marry the 10 men in Population B who would not abuse them, etc. This is because they were strong and didnt allow themselves to be pushed into a bad rishtaa. If they knew the guy was a good guy, they went for the marriage.
Other 90 women are not natural born leaders - their NATURAL personality is that of “we’ll do what the other girls do”. They dont think much for themselves, and they don’t feel too empowered.
Of the 10 strong women, some are abused, some are not.
Of the 10 strong women who are abused, they fight back. Its in their nature - they dont take shyte.
If you take these other 90 women, you’ll see again, that some are abused, and some are not.
The ones who are abused from this subsection are the ones that will TEND to not do much to stop the abuse. Actions to stop the abuse are not limited to leaving the relationship, please take note.
Of these abused girls in the 90 subsection, a few will find the courage to do something about it. Many wont.
So lets say out of the 90 girls, 10 are abused. I would say probably 1-2 will be able to make it out of the situation on their own. They will develop courage from experience WITHIN the situation. That is, prior to the abuse, they didn’t have much courage-building experience. They studied and were then married off. But these 1-2 girls will have built the courage from within their experience. Buts its late in the game, and abuse already took place.
The other 8-9 girls will continue to exist in their abusive relationship, not lifting a finger.
What sadiyah is saying is that if you get girls to be educated, then these 8-9 girls are given the opprotunity to have some pre-marital LIFE experiences that give them the courage to fight. Even after education, maybe 1-2 of these 8-9 girls will not be able to fight back. They’re the kind that would look for extra therapy, and self-esteem building classes, etc.
But the fact that you had education, it helped some of the girls. And that’s a big difference when you’re dealing with a population size in the thousands, and hundred thousands. In my model, education helped 6-8 girls out of 100 girls. That’s a good 6-8 percent of your population.
And my model is talking only of physical abuse at the moment. Verbal abuse is way more spread and its subtle, so its a harder situation to dissect.
I think if education helps 6-8 percent of the females in Pakistan, its worthwile to investigate education as a means of empowering women. Don’t you think?
By the way, probably the percent of physical abuse in Pakistan alone is higher than 6-8 percent.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
acha a lil question, for all those who think domestic abuse is tolerated becoz of a lack of education which does not allow u to work and be independent.....
how do u explain the typical maasi earning and finanically supporting her wife-beating husband and kids whilst the husband only goes and wastes all the cash on charas and afeem......forget education, even financial independence is not doing the trick...howcome?
Re: Desi larkian need to...
are u trying to tell me this maasi is doing it becoz she doesnt have the self-confidence that builds up once u are self-sufficient and have cash in hand to 'buy yr own lunch'?
Re: Desi larkian need to…
PCG,
The problem I see in today’s society in general and gupshup in particular is that they don’t appreciate and praise you enough!
You are the Joan of Arc of all female Pakistani college students.
I’ll write to Ali Azmant and the Junoon gang to dedicate a song to you in
their next album. I promise. 
Re: Desi larkian need to...
Sarahsplendor, you keep sticking to that one example. Here's an example from my own personal life.
I was walking in Saddar Karachi once, when I was 14. I was with my aunt, and I was with my mother.
My aunt is a masters in political science. My mother is a bachelor in psychology. My mom does not work, but my aunt does - she runs a school for underpriveleged girls in karachi as part of an NGO operation.
I was walking along, and this guy - looked like he was in his 30's or 40's - walked by me - and his arm brushed me. Next thing I knew he had grabbed my crotch. As soon as I sensed it, his hands were gone, and he was walking along as if nothing had happened. I stopped and my mouth was open. My aunt and mom turned around and looked at me. They both knew something happened, and they asked me to speak. I could not.
An old man sitting on the sidewalk nearby had seen it and he told them what had happened. My aunt and mom both went after him and punched the guy's lights out.
After that whenever we walked somewhere, we walked in a line. I was in the middle and my aunt was behind me - my mother in front of me. If my mom saw signs, she'd signal my aunt. My aunt would watch, and if the guy did anything, she'd start hitting him and punching him and making a scene. Pretty much, then other guys would see, and they'd start punching him as well. And then we'd walk away, while he got beat up by the crowd.
Now pray tell, I was the immature uneducated one at the time. And my aunt and mom were educated - not just in their degrees but in their experiences. My aunt was the braver one than my mother since she was the one who used her fists. She's used to it - she runs her school in a very run-down neighborhood and she has to deal with abuse situations like this for herself and for her female students all the time.
The last time I went back to Pakistan, I was in college. I was able to run after the guy who grabbed me during a wedding with a stick.
:)
Education does empower you.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
another cute question....the whole scenario u r making with yr pop A and B and yr ideas abt how women have had some pre-marital life experience which builds higherconfidence...rnt all these without statistics...yeh 90/10 kaa ration kahan sai aa raha hai...where r u getting these figures and subsections?....why r u wrting abt hypothetical metality and self-confidence.....give me some real stats not yr own thinking of what goes into play behind the 'supposed' self-confidence of an educated woman...
Re: Desi larkian need to...
how do u explain the typical maasi earning and finanically supporting her wife-beating husband and kids whilst the husband only goes and wastes all the cash on charas and afeem......forget education, even financial independence is not doing the trick...howcome?
I've seen it myself, and I've talked to maasis to get their perspective on the matter.
These ladies actually want their girls to get educated, so they dont have to live the lifestyle they're living. I once asked a maasi that if she had a better job, would she stay with her husband. She retorted no. Fact of the matter is, she needed her husband, even though he's a deadbeat. Because she doesn't have anywhere else to go.
Our society hasnt dont much to help these women, you know.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
so pcg now u have got reduced to lil anecdotes of yr own experience and yr aunties....oops this is yr college education again.sheesh man..
Re: Desi larkian need to...
ghulail, its a specific scenario that I made up. I'm not saying it represents the entire population. in fact, if anything my 6-8 percent of domestic abuse stat is MUCH lower than what you actually see in the real population, I guarantee you.
My scenario only says that no, education wont be the end-all answer. But if it helps even a small percentage of girls in society, then why not promote education?
If you want to say that there are women out there who are naturally able to get out of a situation without education, then fine. But there are many who are not. What of those girls?
Re: Desi larkian need to...
shove it ghulail. go back to khala khel.
You have not addressed the main situation here! Many girls are uneducated, and in-laws and husbands and their own parents use their uneducation to manipulate them into staying in an abusive situation. That you can't deny, because such case scenarios exist. We're talking about SUCH situations. Stick to the topic.
No one is saying that if you dont have educaton, then you will ALWAYS be courage-less.
But think of yourself. Has your educational experience made you braver? It probably has, because you're attempting to combat me in debate.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
Nothing wrong with education, it is the highest utility. But the goal should be to STOP domestic abuse. Women now know how to deal with it, but the problem is still there. It's not just women who should be targeted, but the men who are the perpetrators. Unfortunately, our attention is fixated on only one goal.
Re: Desi larkian need to...
sarah splendor, when people here talk about how to get the guys to stop abusing, then the complaint is "why are we men-bashing - why dont we look at what girls can do themselves?"
That's what this thread is about.
No one ever said here not to tackle the problem by dealing with the perpetrators.
Domestic abuse - why does it happen even with education available to all girls? Lets take the US as an example, since in Pakistan, education has not been made available to all girls.
In the US - domestic abuse still happens because of many things you already mentioned:
- low self-esteem
- threat by the perpetrator that he'll hurt someone (child family member, etc)
- perpetrator's own lack of respect for women's rights.
Many other such reasons. And in the US, work is being done to combat these problems.
the same issues contribute to domestic abuse in Pakistan. But the one other problem they have yet to solve is to make education available for all girls. Those opportunities of self-building are not available to all girls. So you're going to see that it affects their self-esteem as well. Self-esteem can also be bolstered by getting rid of our conceptions that women are only good for reproduction, as sex toys, etc.
Its a multi-faceted problem. But then again, Sadiyah is focusing on one aspect of the problem that she sees in our society. She never said that other problems don't exist.