Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
two things abt democracy
1) no country is purely democratic
2) u cant force democracy on anyone.....thats a contradiction right there.....how r u gonna force people to accept a form of govt that dictates govt be the people?
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
Pinstripe, its all about who is the leader. That's what diffrentiates each form of gov't from one another - its about who leads and how the political body is organized.
In democracy, yes, the laws you make are made by the people. But if we're talking about a muslim country, then laws based on the Quran would still be democratic, since we're talking about a muslim population who wants Islamically-oriented laws.
For example, if you tried to pass pro-homosexual legislation in Pakistan, it would never happen. This is democracy, isn't it?
Don't assume that people in muslim countries don't want Islamic law. They just don't want Islamic law to be manipulated, like what you see in the Hudood Ordinance, which is being passed of as Islamic when it is totally not Islamic.
At any rate, read my comments again - I said that's the component of democracy that people are most concerned of, since so many muslim government's are not supported by the people in those countries. I never said it was the only component of democracy. Just the component the world would like to see integrated at this point in muslim countries.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
exactly. This is what iam trying to tell the dumb desi crowd here.
It does’nt matter who rules the country, the Maulvis or Musharraf. What matters is whose laws are being implemented.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
What are u talking about? The leadership - executive and legislative - would be decided by the people. So the laws that are being made, and then implemented totally depend on who is in charge (executive, legislative, and even judicial).
You should know this - that's why the khalifa position is not for any average joe.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
You have a fundamental problem here. If quran is the word of God (big IF), then the laws prescribed by God cannot be challenged by an independent judiciary which is the foremost component of a modern democracy. It can only prescribe judgements based on the laws, it cannot make a law unconsitutional i.e. throw out quranic edicts. This makes placing islam (under the assumption that islamic laws are divine) above man made laws undemocratic. Islamic governance prescribed as above is undemocratic in it's essense. The original poster is right, democracy is shirk.
The question you have to ask is whether this shirk is better for humanity than any form of islamic governance. have some balls and ask that.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
Absolutely NOT. You can have a judiciary in such an Islamic government, because the Quranic laws are broad in many areas, and every day there is some sort of new case that needs judicial knowledge to be able to sort out. So you can't say there is no need for an independent judiciary in an Islamic democratic system.
Islamic laws are definitely above man-made laws, but democracy does not have to be based on MAN-MADE laws. There just needs to be a consensus that X law is approved and agreed upon by all who enter upon the social contract, rather than approved by one individual and enforced on all others.
Now whether this law comes from the imagination of the people or whether its been sent from up above, doesn't matter in democracy.
All democracy says is that the law must be agreed upon. Therefore, if everyone is Muslim they will naturally agree on implementing Quranic laws.
Take laws against murder for example. You have that as a Quranic law. You implement it in a society of muslims who have chosen Sharaabi for their leader (eg). That's democracy, because everyone mutually agrees that murder is wrong.
Then you take the American society that is not Quranic-based. You see the same law there. We make you, P-diddy, into our President or legislative branch, and we all agree that murder is wrong and is punishable.
So both societies have had every individual mutually agree, before entering the social contract, that murder is wrong and we need a law on it. In one scenario, it was inspired by the Quran. In the other scenario, it wasn't. Regardless, the idea that murder is WRONG is an inherent wrong. And what is wrong will be recognized by anyone who is rational as wrong.
Now we'll be getting into whether wrongs are categorical imperatives or subjective relatives, and that begs a discussion on Kantian ethics cs. Humian Ethics.
This topic goes much further than what meets the eye - first you must acknowledge whether or not right/wrong is a constant concept irrelevant of time and space. If you think right/wrong is relative, then you will not digest making laws based on the Quran. If you think its not relative, then the Quran might not be such a bad idea.
But then that's an issue over the nature of right/wrong, not over the concept of democracy. Democracy is just that everyone agrees on what the laws are. They don't have to be man-made, they just need to be man-approved.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
isten PCG, I like you but when you make stupid comments like this..you take away a bit form that..I really have little patience for idiocy.. "but democracy does not have to be based on MAN-MADE laws"
DEMO=People, People=Man/Woman. democratic laws are and have to be man made and in this system of governance they are to be placed above islamic dictacts. No one is saying whether Eid shouldn't be a national holiday or that you cannot have a prayer before opening your session at the legislative assembly.
relativity of laws is what democracy is all about. It has ot do with what is right and wrong at a certain place or time. Every poll since the end of WWII to 1953 suggested that the majority thought that segragation in American is wrong. Yet it took until Brown vs. board of ed. to over turn that. This is how dmocracies function. Science may project in 20 years that pig organs are the best replacement for human organs. Could an islamic law get overturned if it is good for the populace whie being agains the quranic mandates?
Democracy is not just that everyon eagrees what the laws are. But that there is a process in place ot change the laws, repeal them over time, due to incompatibility to a modern lifestyle, that makes it a democracy.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
He's right PCG.
You take out "Sovereignty of the People", out of the constitution and its no longer democracy.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
yawn...what inane worked-for-us-will-work-for-you logic.....
lets just turn the rest of the world into extended states of the US, everything will be just perfect......
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
I don’t care if you like me or not - big deal? I’ll buy you bhindi here to pay you back for your ehsaan. :k:
Please go read Lockean social contract.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
//There are still thousands of people, many i can name at the top of my mind, who have forsaken the luxuries of this life, to live in the most rigid of enviroments, who have given up this world for the next. Many who smile into the face of death because Truth is more dear to them.
// What rubbish. I am not talking about others... I am talking about you.YOu as a person who is out to reform the states can you do it. Dont give me examples of people accepting death and all that.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
Yeah I know - as if he's going to freeze his behind for the religion. He couldn't stay put in Pakistan for his religion.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
PCG: someone must be really dumb to constantly braying such.. Even I read him telling you many times that he never lived in Pakistan; he was born in middle east and partially raised there and then states.
totaY kee tarah ruT lagaa dee.. pakistan pakistan.. what are you doing in florida, dukhtar-e-Pakistan?
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
this is what you asked me, did’nt you?
So stop contradicting yourself for the sake of the argument.
Secondly my deeds are for Allah alone…and i am not one of those who like to exhibit what i do, or what i want to do. And neither do you have the right to ask me that question.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
The question is not what are u doing in the States...its "Do you plan on being here for the rest of your life or ever moving back?"
Secondly, I certainly am not anti-nationalist, whereas this guy is.
Remember, you can only help your country when you're properly educated and an expertise in your field. Naturally, I dont expect an 18 year old to go hopping over there. But are not you guys old men?
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
May ALLAH:swt: save all of us from Shaitaan. Aameen.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
PCG, Locke and Hobbes are a good read in school. We all did that. Including, thoreau, emerson and De toqueville and others. If you look at Locke and Hobbes, each has valid arguments. The framers of american democracy for example, took all these include account to make a living and breathing country bound by a democratic constitution which changes over time. Rigidity is not a democratic virtue, dogma breeds rigidity which is undemocratic.
And stop being such a nin and lets hug it out. 
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
[QUOTE]
Sadly though many extremist groups have used the ayah to indicate that many (all?) muslim figureheads are kafir and that they should be killed/overthrown.
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First of all we have to take these ppl out of their roots who are damaging the Ummah. These extremists who are playin in the hands of Kuffars.
We are very good at issuing Fatwas are not we? That;'s the main problem muslim Ummah has got today. All we do is sit down and discuss the knowledge and powers of holy prophet SAW. These things are injected by Kuffars in us while they were in India.
Rahter than standing under one flag there is disunity in Ummah and many many ppl are questioning who they should follow??
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
^ True, and even in the event that all muslim govt's were overthrown on the basis that they're "kaafir" or whatever you want to call them, then who exactly is going to come into power? The young kid who leads Hizbul-Tehrir and deems himself to be the next khalifa?? (Now I've seen that kid on talk shows on GEO and man is he one mindjob).
The best each person can do is whatever they're capable of doing. If that means setting up some school for street urchins, or providing employement to a fellow muslim, or helping out a widow or orphan or doing something on the grandscale like reforming the education system of Pakistan - whatever!
Just get your behind up out of your chairs and DO something.
This is why I'm against women sitting at home and nursing their 10 year old kid as if he's still a 3 month old. Females are half our population, ROUGHLY (actually more), and we need all the human resources we can get.
But noooo. We have people running away from Pakistan to make money. I dont mind if people are gettnig educated abroad - theek hai do that. But then after you're done with your education, don't forget the sector of the muslim ummah who made it even possible for you to be where you are.
Now THAT is religious obligation, IMHO. You can't turn your back on your people.
P-diddY: Hobbes and the US law? Are u kidding me? Quit farting around and read the text again. Hobbes is all about absolute leadership, and entire control of nearly everything in the hands of one person.
Well unless you think the CIA serves that role, but I wouldn't even think that ill of the CIA.
Re: Democracy in its Essence - The Biggest Shirk of our Times
Al Ardho Lillah
62:10 And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah: and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint): that ye may prosper.