Democracy and values

[Zafra]

Turkey is a democracy. It has been for a decade or more. Its elections are free and fair and the AKP has won handsomely in each one. They have won all three popular votes in the past 3 elections. However now you have a minority of protesters who are speaking up against a democratically elected government.

They don’t have the votes to change the government in the next elections. They don’t have the parties to represent them, so the question is in a democratic country do protests outside the scope of the law and the election process constitute a threat to democracy itself.

Put it this way if this was a salafist group doing the same thing would you support their right to take action outside of the electoral process and demand actions which are against the law?

[Ghost14]

Re: Democracy and values

He has a mandate to rule the country within the bounds of the law. Turkey is a secular Islamic country. Things like banning the sale of alcohol are rooted in religion, and restrict the rights of non-Muslims who may wish to drink. A Muslim can avoid alcohol whether it’s sold or not. This is the principle that people are protesting. AKP is undermining Turkey’s secular political culture.

So no, I don’t think it goes against democracy to protest for principles which the leader is abusing. For example, Bush with the Patriot Act. That was unconstitutional and people protested against that. Sadly, not enough people did because of the fear campaign but the idea is the same.

[Ma_Mooli]

Democracy and values

Well a secular - islamic country cannot ignore the islam part. The majority voted for an islam leaning leader, so did they not expect any islamic principles? Of course they did, its just the minority brats are having a hard time respecting the opinions of the majority.

[Geezer]

Re: Democracy and values

Even for Muslims in Turkey it is not acceptable when Gov. bans alcohol and puts other restrictions as they keep religion to the personal level and generally have secular values.

[hareem01]

Re: Democracy and values

Religious or secular, when it comes to democracy it’s the opinion of majority that counts.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Democracy and values

@Zafra

Turkey is a democracy. It has been for a decade or more. Its elections are free and fair and the AKP has won handsomely in each one. They have won all three popular votes in the past 3 elections. However now you have a minority of protesters who are speaking up against a democratically elected government.

They don’t have the votes to change the government in the next elections. They don’t have the parties to represent them, so the question is in a democratic country do protests outside the scope of the law and the election process constitute a threat to democracy itself.

Put it this way if this was a salafist group doing the same thing would you support their right to take action outside of the electoral process and demand actions which are against the law?

Vote does not = democracy. Btw, Islamists see democracy as way to grab power & once in power they become dictators. There are many examples of that all across the ME.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Democracy and values

@hareem01

Religious or secular, when it comes to democracy it’s the opinion of majority that counts.

The democracy always have check and balances so that majority (mob) does not go on lynching those who they disagree with.

[hareem01]

Re: Democracy and values

@Shamraz_Khan

The democracy always have check and balances so that majority (mob) does not go on lynching those who they disagree with.

I didn’t see you come up with the same sentiments when France banned hijab or when couple of European countries banned building minarets.

What were the Pakistani seculars saying? “Their country, their rules”, " Muslims have failed to integrate into the society".

[Ghost14]

Re: Democracy and values

@hareem01

Religious or secular, when it comes to democracy it’s the opinion of majority that counts.

It’s the opinion of the majority within the bounds of the law. The vast majority of Americans did not want the Islamic center near ground zero but it would have been against the law to deny Muslims this right, hence, there was nothing they could do. AKP in Turkey is undermining this vital protection of religion, whereas the vast majority of Muslims may or may not care about the rights of other religions, in which case it is up to the state to ensure that all rights are protected. By undermining secular law that right may disappear. That is what people are protesting.

@hareem01

I didn’t see you come up with the same sentiments when France banned hijab or when couple of European countries banned building minarets.

What were the Pakistani seculars saying? “Their country, their rules”, " Muslims have failed to integrate into the society".

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Pakistani seculars were saying that those were wrong *but, *Islam is a religion that is new to Europe and given the way it is being represented, in its most fundamentalist form, opposition is normal. Not right, but expected. All of this has nothing to do with Turkey and its government. You may believe that secularism is not right, but it has worked for Turkey, and it is their political system, and undermining it is a serious matter.

It is similar to how Bush undermined privacy in America. Most Americans voted him in because these subtle infractions are hard to grasp, but those privacy violations paved the way for what is going on in America right now. Similarly, these subtle violations, like banning the sale of alcohol, is the beginning of a slippery slope in restricting religious freedom.

Once again, just because Europeans display xenophobia does not mean that Turkey should become Islamic in retaliation.

[hareem01]

Re: Democracy and values

It’s the opinion of the majority within the bounds of the law. The vast majority of Americans did not want the Islamic center near ground zero but it would have been against the law to deny Muslims this right, hence, there was nothing they could do. AKP in Turkey is undermining this vital protection of religion, whereas the vast majority of Muslims may or may not care about the rights of other religions, in which case it is up to the state to ensure that all rights are protected. By undermining secular law that right may disappear. That is what people are protesting.

**Well, laws are made by governments and sometimes broken by them too. As a muslim, I would’ve gladly accepted the decision of denial to build the mosque, I don’t think it was a big issue. If anything, it created more hatred for Islam in US.

It would be interesting to see such fame given to the drones issue.**

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Pakistani seculars were saying that those were wrong *but,
*Islam is a religion that is new to Europe and given the way it is being represented, in its most fundamentalist form, opposition is normal. Not right, but expected.
*
Yeah it was expected etc…but the fact is it happened within democratic systems and the seculars agreed with it wholeheartedly. So why mourn about Erdogan’s policies? Just shows the hypocrisy of these so called fascist seculars.
*

All of this has nothing to do with Turkey and its government. You may believe that secularism is not right, but it has worked for Turkey, and it is their political system, and undermining it is a serious matter.

***Turkey was never a secular state…it was an anti-religious state for a long time.

---

**The thing is, Turk protesters don’t even know themselves what they actually want!

According to the latest news, they want Erdogan to apoligise for the use of heave police and tear gas.
**

It is similar to how Bush undermined privacy in America. Most Americans voted him in because these subtle infractions are hard to grasp, but those privacy violations paved the way for what is going on in America right now. Similarly, these subtle violations, like banning the sale of alcohol, is the beginning of a slippery slope in restricting religious freedom.

**But the Turkish protests are about the Gezi Park.
**

[Zafra]

Re: Democracy and values

So you all would support Salafists if they held the same protests?

[Ghost14]

Re: Democracy and values

I would support Salafists if a country had an established religious form of government, relying solely on Sharia, and a leader was undermining that. In that case the Salafists would be upholding the rule of law but I can think of no country, except maybe Saudi Arabia, where such conditions exists. Furthermore, religious political movements are rarely ever peaceful, and are almost always oppressive to other religions, which suggests something about mixing religion and politics directly.

[Ghost14]

Re: Democracy and values

@hareem01

It’s the opinion of the majority within the bounds of the law. The vast majority of Americans did not want the Islamic center near ground zero but it would have been against the law to deny Muslims this right, hence, there was nothing they could do. AKP in Turkey is undermining this vital protection of religion, whereas the vast majority of Muslims may or may not care about the rights of other religions, in which case it is up to the state to ensure that all rights are protected. By undermining secular law that right may disappear. That is what people are protesting.

**Well, laws are made by governments and sometimes broken by them too. As a muslim, I would’ve gladly accepted the decision of denial to build the mosque, I don’t think it was a big issue. If anything, it created more hatred for Islam in US.

It would be interesting to see such fame given to the drones issue.**

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Pakistani seculars were saying that those were wrong *but,
*Islam is a religion that is new to Europe and given the way it is being represented, in its most fundamentalist form, opposition is normal. Not right, but expected.
*
Yeah it was expected etc…but the fact is it happened within democratic systems and the seculars agreed with it wholeheartedly. So why mourn about Erdogan’s policies? Just shows the hypocrisy of these so called fascist seculars.
*

All of this has nothing to do with Turkey and its government. You may believe that secularism is not right, but it has worked for Turkey, and it is their political system, and undermining it is a serious matter.

***Turkey was never a secular state…it was an anti-religious state for a long time.

---

**The thing is, Turk protesters don’t even know themselves what they actually want!

According to the latest news, they want Erdogan to apoligise for the use of heave police and tear gas.
**

It is similar to how Bush undermined privacy in America. Most Americans voted him in because these subtle infractions are hard to grasp, but those privacy violations paved the way for what is going on in America right now. Similarly, these subtle violations, like banning the sale of alcohol, is the beginning of a slippery slope in restricting religious freedom.

**But the Turkish protests are about the Gezi Park.
**

Governments do break laws, but they shouldn’t. And when they do, it’s up to the people to protest else the foundation of the country can be eroded. Well a lot of Americans, Muslim or otherwise, cared about that issue because while the Islamic center wasn’t a big deal, the **principle **is very important: religious minorities have the same rights as others, despite the idea being unpopular. As long as it’s done legally, and no one is being harmed, the opinions of the majority cannot be imposed on religious minorities. If you let things like this slide, it can turn into state sponsored persecution of minorities.

I disagree with you about the European incidents. Many people supported Muslims’ right to wear religious clothing and erect minarets. You’re lumping the supposed failures of secularism with political, religious and social xenophobia. Secularism can’t prevent people from being wary of outsiders. People will be people. Similarly, religion isn’t to blame for the fanatics. However, even in those (European) countries, Muslims can live in relative peace, otherwise they would be emigrating en mass, which means that secular forms of governments are succeeding (relatively speaking) in what separates them from religious forms of governments: protecting the religious freedom of the minority. It’s not perfect, I agree, but it’s better than countries that are overtly religious where minorities are persecuted. Jews aren’t even allowed in Saudi Arabia. Does that seem fair to you?

I agree that the Turkish protestors are fragmented but from what I’ve read the protests began about the park but others have joined because of the political undermining of the system.

[hareem01]

Re: Democracy and values

Saudi Arabia is very much like a secular country…separating religion from politics. The Islamic caliphate was destroyed by Abdul Wahab and Saud family with the help of Britain less than a century ago.

May I ask, how would you define Secularism?

[Zafra]

Re: Democracy and values

@Ghost14

I would support Salafists if a country had an established religious form of government, relying solely on Sharia, and a leader was undermining that. In that case the Salafists would be upholding the rule of law but I can think of no country, except maybe Saudi Arabia, where such conditions exists. Furthermore, religious political movements are rarely ever peaceful, and are almost always oppressive to other religions, which suggests something about mixing religion and politics directly.

Not my question. Would you support salafists if they were ding the same thing. i.e. demonstrating against the AKP because of their tyranny and injustices?