Faraz, its sad to see so much blind hate that you have in your heart for people you don't even know. Go study your noorani Qaida... tell us what do the "wahabis" do that you think is so unislamic?
Or do you hate them so that you can put a shadow on your heretic beliefs and innovations that you do on darbars and you have to criticise people who stop you from doing things which your grandparents taught you and those things have no basis in islam(sunnah and quran) what so ever?
Just ask yourself two questions:
If the answer to either of these questions is YES, then you need a life. If it is NO then you need something to do instead of sitting on your ass all day.
Let me in you on a secret. If you pull it, it doesnt get longer.
…teachings of Mirza Ghulam saab?
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That is a nice “belief” to have for a Qadiyaani.
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Let me in you on a secret too: You could have said what you said without putting that dirty, perverted, qadiyaani like line in your reply. You need to get a life before you tell someone else around here.
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-cheers
I would strongly urge the participants of this thread to stick to the question at hand without derogatory remarks and profanities.
If anyone has a claim against a person or a group of people, then evidence should be presented to support this claim. And by evidence we mean returning to the teachings or writings of the accused to exctract proofs against his/her/their very own claim, rather than turning to other sources. Many a time we find that alternative sources are mere explantions without proof, resulting from either disagreement of the accused or simply spite and hatred for him/her.
If someone was to say to the Muslim, that there are shortcomings or contradictions in the Qur'aan, would we not ask him/her to show us the proof by presenting the verse(s) in which his/her misconceptions lied? Then why is it that when someone is accused, we do not return to his/her writings to extract the evidences and instead we are hasty in spitting words out in resent? Why is it that we do not stop to think but allow our emotions to dictate our sense of reasoning? And why is it our minds and vibrance of thought is blinded by an illusive curtain? Surely, the same principles must be applied here?
I do not wish to see anymore name calling. Quite Frankly, i've had enough. If you have anything to say, bring your proofs forward by returning to the works of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab. I shall list some of his most well known books, thus to enable the sincere person who is interested to carry out his/her own personal investigation, before continuing to discuss the issue:
Kitaab-ul-Tawheed (A book explaining the Oneness of Allaah)
Asool-ath-thalaatha (The three fundamentals)
Al-qawaa'id Al-Arba'aah (The four priciples)
Kashaf-ash-shobahaat (Clarifying the doubts)
I do not wish to see anymore of this bashing and bullying. As Muslims, if we have a complaint against someone, we should bring forth the evidence. And this evidence comes from either the persons sayings, writings or actions. In this case only his writings will suffice as we so often see historic contradictions dependant upon differing sources.
So please, if you have something to say, then present your proofs. And let it be a reminder, that explanations do not equal evidences.
Sentinel.
[quote]
Originally posted by Sentinel:
***I would strongly urge the participants of this thread to stick to the question at hand without derogatory remarks and profanities.*
..........
.............
...........
Sentinel.**
[/quote]
Thank you very much Moderator Sahab. And I apologise if I got carried away with my emotions and made some unprofessional remarks.
Thanks.
Why can't I get MY question answered in this crossfire of dialogue?
No, they ** knew in their hearts ** the Truth about Islam. If that wasn’t the case, then ** Why ** did they ** lie so viciously ** about that religion, and why did they ** relentlessly persecute ** the followers of that religion?
Let’s take this example. A little while ago, I made this post regarding ** bin Laden ** :
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004594-2.html
(just made a slight change, by reducing the area under “bold”)
Now, you see these two pictures of bin Laden and ** unless and UNTIL ** bin Laden ** had not ** gone through through some ** PLASTIC SURGERY ** for the ** CIA Video **, and then ** again ** gone through ** plastic surgery ** to ** return ** to his ** normal appearance **, it is an ** UNDENIABLE PROOF ** that ** bin Laden ** has been ** FRAMED ** by the ** American ** authorities and that he is ** TOTALLY INNOCENT **.
Also, this video was made in a ** sinister manner ** , because a very ** serious and vicious attempt ** was made to ** malign Islam ** as much as possible. Also, it was used to dishearten the Muslims, and an attempt to give a twisted meaning to a verse of the Qur’an was also made. On the whole, it looks like bin Laden said just exactly what ** Bush and other Crusaders ** wanted to hear, what the ** anti-Islamic public ** already ** wanted to hear. **
It gives no room for any doubt, and In any case, it leaves you (and anyone else) with ** TWO OPTIONS ** :
** (1) ** Either you ** ACCEPT ** (lit. ** TASLEEM ** - same root word as ** "ISLAM ** ) the ** Truth ** that bin Laden is innocent, and that this is a war on Islam, and that Bush and other ** Crusaders are wrong ** , and then ** putting aside all ego ** , pride etc, You ** SUBMIT ** (lit. ** ISLAM ** ) yourself to the ** Truth **.
Or ** (2) ** After having ** realized ** the ** Truth ** (with ** certainty **), you can ** REFUSE ** to ** ACCEPT ** (lit. ** Tasleem ** ) it, and can then ** CONCEAL ** (lit. ** KUFR ** ) it by vehemently denying it, ** lying ** about it, etc etc. Then you will be a ** CONCEALER ** (lit. ** KAAFIR ** ) of the Truth.
And we have ** both varieties ** of people.
The choice is upto you my friend.
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The Holy Qur’an says:
Let there be NO COMPULSION in Religion,
For ** Truth ** Standsout ** DISTINCT ** from ** Error ** (Holy Qur’an 2:256)
[This message has been edited by Khoon-e-Shaheed (edited April 12, 2002).]
** Even today, ** you can see that the non-Muslims lie so viciously about Islam, make up ** imaginary facts ** about Islam, and spread them all over the media. ** WHY ??? **
Why don’t the ** Muslims do the same thing ? **
Also, being ** anti-Muslim ** is very ** rewarding ** in non-Muslim cultures, and that includes the West. Why? There are so many ** books, documentaries etc ** that portray the Muslims in a very ** pathetic light **, and they are ** in demand ** by the ** Western Public. ** Why???
If a Muslim were to write a similar vicious book about the non-Muslims or the Westerners, it ** WOULD NOT ** in much ** DEMAND ** by the ** Muslim Public. **. i.e it is ** NOT very REWARDING ** to be ** ANTI-KAFIR ** in a ** Muslim Society **. Hmm.. I wonder why???
Some clarifications :
Kufr = disbelief
Kaafir = disbeliever
Kuffaar = disbelievers (plural of Kaafir)
Takfeer = Denouncing someone as a disbeliever
What is “Wahhabism” ? And Who is a “Wahhabi” ?
"Wahhabism " has ** STILL NOT ** been ** DEFINED ** yet.
Please, no name-calling without any justificatin
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Thanks
I severely dislike ANYONE that speaks halftruths or outright lies be they Muslim, Tiki freaks, Yanks, Sovs, Christians, Jews or whoever. You did not fully answer my question, these Arab pagans were not really given time to digest the things offered by Islam. Was it expected to have a major religious revolution in one or two generations? You prophet was good but not perfect, was he? I do not say this in disrespect, but as an open criticism. The half reply you gave about my statement does not address the joker on the right as being a friend or supporter of Bin Ladin's with bad teeth. Osama's teeth are in a healthy condition.
[This message has been edited by TOMASSO (edited April 12, 2002).]
You say as if they were forced to accept Islam. No buddy, rather these ** pagans ** were ** forcing ** the ** Muslims ** to ** renounce ** Islam.
What do you mean? That a person should adopt a religion ** a few generations ** after his death?? How’s that possible? Once you die, you die.
Also, you imply they ** were forced ** to adopt Islam, which is wrong.
But, hey ** Islam ** brought such a tremendous ** revolution ** in such a ** short time, ** that the unsophisticated, poorly armed Arabs defeated the ** 2 Superpowers ** of their time, and within a ** 100 years ** of the Holy Prophet(S)'s death, Muslims had ** conquered Spain ** !!!
** Speaks VOLUMES ** about the ** Religion. **
No , ** he (S) was Perfect. **
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Take it easy
**You obviously did not understand what i said earlier.
If you have a complaint against Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab (or anyone for that matter) then please bring quotes from his books to support your accusations ... else keep quiet!
Sentinel.**
[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited April 12, 2002).]
The thing is, since the beginning of hostilities against the mainland of the US, it is of importance to me. Despite all that has happened, I don't have a problem with Muslim fundies up to a point. I do not want to see this faith diluted or messed with by anybody. As a matter of fact Khoon, the sincere interest in Islam here in the US has grown since 9/11. I do not refer to converstions or bad presentations in the media, but honest self tutoring on the subject. That is fact!
[This message has been edited by TOMASSO (edited April 12, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Faraz Mir:
*Abdul Wahab’s bizarre teachings were: *
[/quote]
Ok, this my ** CHALLENGE ** to you. I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** them, alrite ???
[quote]
-Anyone who visits a shrine of his saint, is a kafir.
[/quote]
Kaafir??
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
-Anyone who is not Sunni is a kafir
[/quote]
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
-Anyone who does not believe in killing innocent people for the cause of Jihad is a kafir
[/quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
-Anyone who even remotely tries to say that Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims are our brothers and we must live in peace with them, is a kafir
[/quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
-Anyone who says that suicide bombings are haram is a kafir
[/quote]
** HAHAHAHHA !!! Suicide Bombing did NOT EVEN EXIST back then !!!! **
What a ** NASTY , PERVERTED LIAR ** you are Faraz !!!
Shows how much on the "right path" you are, cuz. you've to go to such unbelievable lenghts to lie !!!
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
-Anyone who says we should be tolerant and respectful of non-Muslims is a kafir
[/quote]
Same point again.
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
-Anyone who preaches love, mysticism, and tolerance is a kafir
[/quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
-It is a duty of every Wahabi to destroy the tombs and shrines of Muslim saints.
[/quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
[/quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
[/quote]
** 100% BIG FAT SINISTER VICIOUS LIE. **
I ** CHALLENGE ** you to ** PROVE ** it.
[quote]
TOMASSO, please don't waste your time with these mental rejects. This is not your fight.
[/quote]
Why are you afraid that Tomasso may appreciate ** Mainstream Islam **? Or do you desperately want to convert him to Shiism??
Readers, this ** NASTY, PATHETIC LIAR **, Faraz, has been exposed.
Faraz, ** remember I've CHALLENGED you to PROVE them.
If you are enough of a Man, then PROVE THEM.
Remember, it's a CHALLENGE. **
[quote]
Originally posted by Faraz Mir :
- It is a duty of every Wahabi to destroy his own culture, language and tradition and ** adopt Arab ** culture under the guise of Islam
[/quote]
One of the 2 prominent teachers of Imam Muhammad ibn 'Abdul Wahhab's (in Madeenah or Makkah) was some ** Imam ** ---- ---- ** SINDHI ** !!! (forgot his name though )
So, he obviously was a Pakistani Teacher (Indian at that time) ..
I'm sure the respected ** Sindhi Imam ** feeded him Arab Supremacy !!!
Again, I'm not Muslim, but some of these points seem to me to be in alignment with Qu'ranic logic. Mohammed did not want a memorial of death to be very high above the ground. What happened, Musims made him a great tomb, then and there. To worship or venerate tombs seems to be wrong to me. To destroy large, arrogant shrines and tombs and replace this with more suitable markers seems in line. Certain idols were destroyed by Mohammed because he was concerned with the resumption of worship of them. I will probably not convert to Islam, but I can very much see the wisdom, logic and beauty of it. I will never be an enemy of Islam. Even at the point of a Syrian sword!
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Khoon-e-Shaheed extends his Hand of Friendship to You !
The proof, you really want the proof right?
The proof is everywhere and everyday in the ACTIONS of those whao are influenced by Wahabis.
Since you are obviously one of those misguided folks, I will ask you.
Do you believe sufis are kafir?
Do you believe shias are kafir?
Do you believe sufi shrines are unislamic and should be abolished?
Do you believe that Islam is only “pure” as practiced in Saudi Arabia?
Do you believe that kafirs cannot be trusted and 9/11 and other terrorist attacks were justified?
Do you belive the only way to get jannah is through following the “purest” form of Islam as practiced in the 7th century?
Do you believe that how Islam is practiced should have no influence of the culture of a people?
Do you support the madrassahs schools that teach children to hate “kafirs” (as defiend by Wahabis of course).
Do you belive it is the goal of every “pure” Muslim to shove sharia down the throat of every other Muslim or human being?
Answer me these questions, and we will begin to get a better picture of what Wahabis believe in.
Meanwhile read up on this for your own knowledge, since you obviosuly have very little:
http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/salafi.html
[quote]
Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
** One of the 2 prominent teachers of Imam Muhammad ibn 'Abdul Wahhab's (in Madeenah or Makkah) was some ** Imam ** ---- ---- ** SINDHI ** !!! (forgot his name though )
So, he obviously was a Pakistani Teacher (Indian at that time) ..
I'm sure the respected ** Sindhi Imam ** feeded him Arab Supremacy !!!**
[/quote]
Of course, today many Punjabis, Pushtuns, Kashmiris, Muhajirs have aready been brainwashed into thinking that Wahabism is Islam, when in fact it is Arab tribalism repackaged.
Replies with ( * ) are my answers… now have you ever read Abdul Wahabs books?
Do you think its okay according to Quran and SUnnah to do “taveez ganda?”
Do you think its okay for people to go to graves of “saints” and ask them for help and bow down to them?
Do you think, its OKAY to change Islam according to ones will?
There are MANY questions, but if you answer those with NO, then you might be called a “wahabi” too.
Do you think its OKAY to choose our own way and invent things in islam as new ways of worship than that ordained and done by Prophet(pbuh)?
.
[This message has been edited by Sadiaa (edited April 12, 2002).]