what exactly does it mean to be reverent to and have faith in Divine Love, am confoooosed
i couldn’t find an old thread for answers and i feel like discussing it here so google is not something i want to use. short and to the point responses would be appreciated since i have ADD:p
Re: Define Divine Love
Please check in the beginning and specially from the time 04:00 onwards
Re: Define Divine Love
^any original thoughts of your own from that beautiful mind of yours SOP? i could've found videos on my own :P
the divine love i feel for God is unconditional or atleast i try to make it so why cant i receive unconditional love back from God? can there really be irreverence in this divine love relationship?
Re: Define Divine Love
Divine love is all about, that how much you are close to God, how much you follow islam, read Quran, offer prayer, pay zakkat, and go to hujj,,,,, if you are performing these pillars of Islam, than its means you are doing well, AND God is happy from u.. that is ALll ALLAH LOVE..
Re: Define Divine Love
Peace Nisha25
I have not fully understood what it is you are asking. Divine Love can mean Love for Divine or Love from Divine ... you need to specify which ... If you are talking about our "rida" contentment then we should be like this with our fate. If you are talking about "ishq" then this is state above and beyond our requirement - it is a condition of the excellent. Muhabba (love) can be directed at Allah (SWT) and directed at creation for the sake of Allah (SWT) ...
There is a strong concept of brotherhood in Islam and this extends to humanity, living creatures and even alll created things. If brotherhood is not love then I don't know what is ...
To answer your question ... we do love the non-Divine as well (in a sacrificial capacity) ... but we should not desire it. (in a selfish capacity).
Re: Define Divine Love
I don't believe in unconditional love, (if I correctly understand its meaning). A mother's love is never unconditional for her son. The condition is that he is HER son. If the same boy was someone else's son, she wouldn't have bothered making all those sacrifices for him.
Our love for our parents is conditional. The condition is that they are our parents. Our love for humanity is based on our love for their CREATOR, Allah (Swt).
Our love for our Creator was not originally unconditional, but it became unconditional after HE created us and blessed us with infinite blessings, because we can never pay HIM back even if we sacrifice all our wishes and everything we have, for HIM.
The love of our creator for us can not be unconditional, because HE create us for a purpose.
Re: Define Divine Love
SOP, the meaning of unconditional love is loving regardless of the loved one's qualities or actions.
i can't imagine having unconditional love for another human being b/c if that human abuses me on a daily basis, verbally or physically, inflicting me with pain that is also emotional pain, i would not love that person after a while and if there is still love for that person then that would cross the boundary into sadism/masochism
we humans love God even if things like the japan tsunami which seems like the most immense tragedy til date, the Haiti tragedy, there are such tragic events in this world happening every day with immense poverty and yet humans have love for God regardless of all the suffering. why were we given the power to question. are we expected to stop searching for answers and only have blinders on(like horses have). am i really being irreverent to God if i use the power of questioning some of the hurtful verses that are written in all these various holy books?
Re: Define Divine Love
Actually I'm of the opinion that "love" is out natural state
Re: Define Divine Love
To answer your question ... we do love the non-Divine as well (in a sacrificial capacity) ... but we should not desire it. (in a selfish capacity).
can i just take this part of what you said and go into it deeper. i know you're talking only from the perspective of islam, this idea of desire that you're talking about. isn't lust for the spouse, getting sexual gratification from her/him, selfish in nature, we're satisfying those desires that God put in us to suppress. in some religions, according to the interpretation of certain holy text by certain followers, sex should only be seen from a spiritual aspect, sex for procreation and for divine love, sex that is seen from the perspective of sexual satisfaction is selfish and deviates from our love for God..........I have a problem with that. why did god give us desires then if we're only supposed to use them for procreating and see it only in a spiritual way.
we're kind of going off topic with this but let's still explore it
Actually I'm of the opinion that "love" is out natural state
what did you mean by this statement......explain
Re: Define Divine Love
what did you mean by this statement......explain
I meant our not out
There is a new video on youtube by Abdal Hakim Murad about love and he mentions that we were made on this basis - love is inside us and it is a natural state - we express love before we think - hence it is a natural state and not subject to condition - it only becomes subject to condition when we start using our heads.
Re: Define Divine Love
I meant our not out
There is a new video on youtube by Abdal Hakim Murad about love and he mentions that we were made on this basis - love is inside us and it is a natural state - we express love before we think - hence it is a natural state and not subject to condition - it only becomes subject to condition when we start using our heads.
as a nonmuslim i love God. it's pure b/c i don't use any conditions for that love. i honestly don't expect anything in return from God
God as seen by all these various holy books(with all due respect to them and their viewpoints) is seen to send humans like myself to hell if i don't follow all the tenets of that religion.
if i have unconditional love for God, with only expressions of love and only thoughts of God in my mind, why can't God have unconditional love for me as a nonmuslim? why are human beings seen to be stronger, if my dog didn't obey me, i wouldn't kill him off or be angry with it, i would still love it regardless.
Re: Define Divine Love
I read this piece of writing by Sh. Hamza Yusuf about Divine Love few months ago, it may not answer all of your questions but I think you’ll find it interesting.
http://www.sandalaproductions.com/Blog/10-a-reflection-on-divine-love.aspx
Re: Define Divine Love
what did you think of what was written by Yusuf ji about divine love? any thoughts
Re: Define Divine Love
Re: Define Divine Love
`i was hoping for some of your own thoughts on the issue
“I created humankind and sprites only to adore Me” (51:56).
all religions teach a human not to be selfish but why is God shown to be so full of his/her/its own glory and as being selfish and unyielding. unselfish, self sacrificing human being like mother theresa didn't worship God the way God wanted her to and so God sent her to the fiery pits of hell??!!? why would God promote such ways of thinking though?
Re: Define Divine Love
`i was hoping for some of your own thoughts on the issue
“I created humankind and sprites only to adore Me” (51:56).
all religions teach a human not to be selfish but why is God shown to be so full of his/her/its own glory and as being selfish and unyielding. unselfish, self sacrificing human being like mother theresa didn't worship God the way God wanted her to and so God sent her to the fiery pits of hell??!!? why would God promote such ways of thinking though?
Peace Nisha25
Allah (SWT) is not in need of us. When you read ayat 51:56 it must be done without attempting to humanise Him. He is not like us. Rather when it states that humankind were created only to adore Him ... He is telling us that our souls' nourishment is through the adoration of Him, not that He in any way needs us to adore Him.
So there is absolutely no selfishness that can be seen here, but even if there was - let's say Pride - this is the cloak only befitting Him. In order words everything Allah (SWT) Attributes to Himself He is fully deserving of that. When a man says that "I am the best" you think of him as arrogant, because his claim is fallacious. If that is God saying that, it is nothing but Truth and we not only subdue ourselves to this idea but we take great contentment in it. That He Allah (SWT) is the One completely in Power and Wisdom. We love that about Him and it is not a cause for us to question His Majesty, but rather to be in awe of it.
Just look to the heavens and see the stars. They each may contain huge star systems like our own it is a vast expanse - Our concept of Allah (SWT) makes all that look insignificant. When we truly dwell on these things then we could never ask the question "why is God shown to be full of his/her/its own glory" rather we are being pointed to the glory that is deserved of Allah - it is not exaggeration it is pure truth and nourishing for our hearts and souls.
Re: Define Divine Love
"What! Did you then think that We had created you in vain...?" (23:115)
"I was a hidden treasure and loved to be known. Hence I created the world so I would be known (my own translation of Hadith e Qudsi which is found is almost every Islamic book that discusses goal of creation).
God is free of all forms of need as Psyah stated. The test if for us as to what level of grace and perfection we are able to receive and how near to God we can get. And obviously this nearness is achieved by believing in Him and doing good deeds and thus in return being graced by Divine love (according to us Prophet Mohammad (saww) being at the highest station of Divine love hence called "Habib Ullah", i.e. beloved of God).
[8:60] God loves the "doers of justice", [9:108] "who purify themselves". [9:4] "the pious", [3:146] "the patient", [2:222] "those who repent and purify themselves", and so on.
In Quran God's displeasure is not described by His hatred but rather as following:
[2:276] :God does not love any ungrateful (or unbeliever) sinner"
[3:57] "God does not love the unjust"
[4:36] "surely, God does not love him who is proud, boastful"
[4:107] and "surely God does not love him who is treacherous, sinful"
The titles we choose for ourselves are meaningless. Be it Christian, Jew, Shia, Sunni. What matters is how well we have the knowledge of the truth (there is only one truth). And not only the knowledge of truth (Iman) but love of following the truth (Amal or action/deeds). And in Quran we read;
[27:14] And they denied them (Divine signs or miracles) unjustly and proudly while their soul had been certain about it.
Even Iblis knew but chose not to follow.
Re: Define Divine Love
very nice thread...I wish we had more of that without being a muslim, christian, jew, hindu, black, yellow, white, green...just a human being, in the end human. I think we need to become humans to understand God. All others are just labels I'd say. I mean what's the sense of being a Muslim when you are not good to tohers? Doesn't matter if you pray 5 times, pay your zakat, perform hajj etc.
Re: Define Divine Love
I totally agree that we need to become 'human' in order to understand God. But who would define behavior of a 'human' ? You, me or the CREATOR HIMSELF ?!? If we say that the creator created us without giving us a manual (to know how to develop our love for Him and understand His love for us), then it would be a blame against HIM. Also all the contrasting religions can't be all correct. Our Creator has just left it to us to search for the real manual out of all the religions. If everyone starts developing his own definition of the 'Divine Love' than there would be a lot of confusions and conflicts, because we all are bound to think based on our personal experiences and understandings. We need an ultimate manual by the manufacturer HIMSELF to know HIS love for us and HOW should our love for HIM be developed! That love just can't occur on its own, unless we develop an attitude and thinking that our Creator wants from us.
One can't become human unless he follows the ULTIMATE (not self made) requirements that his creator has set for him to obey in order to become human (in terms of behavior). That requirement no one can decide for himself. How can a man be considered human when he follows his own wishes and instincts ( just like animals) and ignores the criteria that his CREATOR has set for him in order to become HUMAN. (the superior of all creations)
What kind of love we should have for our Creator or we should expect from Him (based on our actions) is also taught to us by our Creator, through his prophets. You and I can't just guess it, because non of us is the ultimate genius of the universe.
Re: Define Divine Love
what did you think of what was written by Yusuf ji about divine love? any thoughts
Well, I'm a born muslim and have read Quran but never really tried to understand it, the understanding I got about my religion mainly comes from my culture and society and when I looked for more knowledge I found wahabi (anti-sufi) material but didn't find satisfaction in it and that's why I think that it's important to read the Sufi literature (like Rumi's) to gain the understanding of universal love because they definitely understood it better than others. I like this quote from Sh. Yusuf's article where he quoted a verse from Quran and also a hadith explaining divine love.
"This last love is attained only by those who possess the direct knowledge of God described in the sacred hadith above. Furthermore, it is only attained by one who has in his or her heart that universal love for all of creation that is understood in the verse, “My Mercy encompasses all things” (7:156). It is the mercy that the Messenger of God, God bless and grant him peace, spoke of when he said, “you will not truly believe until you show mercy to one another.”
To this, a companion responded, “But Messenger of God, all of us show mercy to others.”
The Prophet, God bless and grant him peace, explained, “I am not speaking of the mercy one of you shows to his friend but of universal mercy—mercy to all of humanity.”
Regarding the famous hadith, “None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself,” Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676/1277) states in his commentary that this love includes all of humanity. He further elucidates that it is a love that goes against our very nature; it is angelic in nature, and it is only obtained by negating the ego.
He also states that we should hate sin not the sinner. It's really hard to actually imply these things but I pray that I can do that.