Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^^ lol if you say so. i think you should start reading pak historians instead , i was talking about pak historians and generals. though i trust more on indian historian over "controlled" historians from pak but when i look in to your own historians they say the same thing.
Happy "Defence" day to you
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
1971 blunder had nothing to do with Indian planning, so snap out of it. It was purely blunder by west Pakistanis.
If you read historians other than the indians you will find the verdict is split, some called it a victory for pak, some for India but most called it a draw. Try reading historians other than Indians.
There is only one history "the Indian version" The rest is a big fat lie... Please get your facts right.... thankoo...
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^^ lol if you say so. i think you should start reading pak historians instead , i was talking about pak historians and generals. though i trust more on indian historian over "controlled" historians from pak but when i look in to your own historians they say the same thing.
Happy "Defence" day to you
So the history from Indian side is correct, right?
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^^ lol if you say so. i think you should start reading pak historians instead , i was talking about pak historians and generals. though i trust more on indian historian over "controlled" historians from pak but when i look in to your own historians they say the same thing.
Happy "Defence" day to you
It is true that historians and military from any warring country will exaggerate their wins, and diminutize their losses for public consumption. This holds true for both sides, India and Pakistan. Sames the case with the US in its wars as well.
Based on unbiased reports, 65 war was evenly matched. Reason why Pakistan is given the edge is because despite India's enormous size and equipment based advantage, Pakistan managed to hold them at bay. Another major reason is the battle of Sialkot, where India's biggest armoured division, 1st armoured, was not only pushed back by a much smaller 6th armoured on Pakistan's side, but we also gained precious ground.
The ceasefire was in both side's favor, as neither was prepared for a long term war. Other than that, historians can fight out over 'my gun is bigger than yours' till the cows come home.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
There is a Defense day gift
NLC scam: For the same crime, civilians and ex- generals face different laws – The Express Tribune
&
Thank you Army
But
Time for real work
They should go for a formal court martial of Ayoub , Yaha , Zia and Musharraf .
For breaching the oath of defending the constitution of Pakistan .
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
In any military conflict, there are two sides: one belligerent, other defending. The belligerent side initiates hostilities with a clear set of objectives,and only when these objectives are completely or partially achieved, can it be deemed "victorious". OTOH, the sole objective of the defending side is to defend the status quo*, *additional positive outcomes are icing on the cake.
Regarding '65 War, there can be no doubt that it was Pakistani Army which initiated hostilities in Kashmir. What were its objectives ? Were any of these achieved ? If not, than how can Pakistan be the winning side?
Our Pakistani friends do an interesting magic trick. According to them, India is the belligerent party for not fighting according to PA Generals' plans and opening an additional front in Punjab. I guess Indian military tacticians should have called up their their Pakistani counterparts before deciding tactics ! After doing this intellectual sleight of hand, our neighbors claim that since they were the defending side, and the status quo was restored after international mediation, they are the winning side, or that there was no winning side. :)
Chalo dil ko behlane ke liye ghalib yeh khayal bhi accha hai :)
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
They should go for a formal court martial of Ayoub , Yaha , Zia and Musharraf . For breaching the oath of defending the constitution of Pakistan .
I agree. **All **martial law administrators should be tried for treason, and shamed in public, starting from Sikander Mirza/Ayub Khan, down to Musharraf. Make sure you dont miss anyone, dead or alive.
This argument is cyclical, and the response will depend on how far back you are willing to go in time. Pakistan's intervention in Kashmir was because of India's illegal occupation of the state in the first place. So that would make India the belligerent one, no?
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
Au contraire, that argument forms the basis of every military conflict.
This will divert the thread. But I will answer as you brought up 1947-48 war. In '47 just like '65, Pakistan backed tribal *lashkars *[so-called non-state actors ;)] were the ones, which attacked Kashmir first. Raja Hari Singh asked for India’s help, Nehru obliged after J&K **acceded ****legally **[all conspiracy theories about this being fake aside] to India. Only then, Indian troops were sent to Kashmir.
So you see, it was Pakistan which was the belligerent party in that war too. In almost every conflict, it is Pakistan, which acted, and consequently India reacted. Many Pakistanis dislike India for reacting on Pakistan’s provocation and defending her interests. Only time India acted, she succeeded spectacularly.
PS:
This portion of the post is meant to preempt many inevitable responses from other members.
It is unfortunate that UN Resolutions were never implemented in 1947. It is unfortunate that Pakistani regular and irregular troops were not withdrawn from Pak controlled J&K, which was the requisite condition for plebiscite. It is unfortunate that Pakistani Govt. consistently opposed to include the third option of “independence” in the proposed plebiscite.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
Here is the bottom line... Who crossed the international border?
Touching the IB is an act of war....PERIOD... The rest is all noise.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^
Like I said before, Chalo dil ko behlane ke liye ghalib yeh khayal bhi accha hai !
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^ Bhai saheb Pakistan if it comes to the worst only crossed the LOC, which is a disputed region. India was the one who crossed the recognised INTERNATIONAL border when it attacked Lahore.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^ Bhai saheb Pakistan if it comes to the worst only crossed the LOC, which is a disputed region. India was the one who crossed the recognised INTERNATIONAL border when it attacked Lahore.
And they captured Lahore. Ask Indian historians. They must all have been wearing burkas as I never saw anyone of them. lekin as someone said "Dil kay behlanay koh ghalib yeh khayal achha hai.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
As long as we have PPP, CJ, MQM that is never going to happen.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^ Bhai saheb Pakistan if it comes to the worst only crossed the LOC, which is a disputed region. India was the one who crossed the recognised INTERNATIONAL border when it attacked Lahore.
That is what the ground reality is but what is taught in India schools is quite the opposite... BTW Indians will be celebrating another vijay in few weeks this time its 1962 war with China. Case in point, again what actually happened and what Indians are taught in their schools.
Henderson Brooks findings were banned by Indian govt for obvious reasons but quite a bit was leaked to British Journalist and writer Neville Maxwell and his findings are in his book, “India’s China War”. Its an eye opener and quite a shock for Indians if they want to know what happened :)
Bottom line you do not want to argue with Indians....PEROID..... they live in a different world.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
As long as we have PPP, CJ, MQM that is never going to happen.
There were some good comments by you some time in past .
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
Can you point me to the mysterious books in which these mythologies are written. Not a newspaper article or anecdotal reports but real history books, that are taught in India. Here you can access some of these books:
National Council Of Educational Research And Training :: Home
I think both of you are confused. You are mistaking war-time propaganda with actual history. When a war is being fought, all kinds of fantastic claims might be made for increasing morale of the populace.This is called war-time propaganda. But, after the dust settles down, scholars sit down to do an objective assessment of mistakes and achievements of the war. This is called history. In some countries, both might be synonymous, but not in India. 
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^ Bhai saheb Pakistan if it comes to the worst only crossed the LOC, which is a disputed region. India was the one who crossed the recognised INTERNATIONAL border when it attacked Lahore.
So are we to understand, that If Indian Army marches into Pakistan controlled J&K (disputed territory), than Pakistan will agree to politely fight in J&K only. There will be no threats of unilateral nuclear retaliation, hain jee ?
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
acceded legally? there you go with the brain washing that is done in Indian schools. Enough said. carry on with your trolling.
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
That day J&K was not part of India , After accepting ‘Rai Shamari’ in UN ,It is not a part of India yet . Just Remember Juna Gadh ,Manawather and Mangrol ,officially joined Pakistan but occupied by India on claim of Hindu Majority , Same was done with Hyderabad and Goa . There is a dirty past of India of occupying states on different claims . Pakistan could not do that due to different reasons .
I am always critic of army but otherwise India played a much dirty role .
Re: Defence Day of Pakistan - 6th September 1965
^
Pasha Saheb,
There is no difference between the "dirty" deeds of India and Pakisan. Pakistan also invaded Balochistan after its independence, and denied Independence option to Pashtuns. Each Dominion tried to get control of as much territory as possible. The concern for natives was superficial. The main struggle was for the control of resources on their respective territories.
In Kashmir,the Raja was already weak, and his regime collapsing. Sh. Abdullah was immensely popular. Revolution had already broken.I am sure J&K would soon have gained independence. However, this was not in Pakistan's interest because of the stormy relationship between Quaid and Sheikh. Thus, the invasion by *kabaili lashkars *was launched from Pakistan, which incidentally also gave India the pretext that she needed to intervene. The rest, as they say, is history.
India is not disliked for playing dirty, she is disliked for outmaneuvering Pakistan every time in playing dirty.