Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

Ok. That reply to post of Psyah was not Barelvi/deobandi differences, but just limited to core Barelvi (Ahl-us-Sunnah) beliefs
The actual Fatwa of Imam Raza Khan Rehmatullah Alaih says it is makruh to call the Prophet peace and blessings upon him as Alimul Ghaib

As for me I would probably answer yes, as in very much possible, to all those beliefs. There is certainly nothing, profoundly, wrong in them

Regarding being present in places, this is from Barelvi, no i mean Maliki site:

Q & A: The Mawlid-un-Nabi | Muwatta.com - The People of Madinah

The blessed body of the Prophet (salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) is buried in Medina. But his Soul, like the souls of all Prophets and pious believers, is free to roam in the Kingdom of Allah to attend blessed gatherings. Evidence for this is what occurred on the Night of the Mi’raj when all the Prophets gathered in al-Quds to meet and pray behind our Prophet (salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam). Many of them met him again in the Heavens.

Ibn al-Qayyim mentions in his Kitab al-Ruh that the famous Companion Sayyidna Salman al-Farisi (radiya Allahu ‘anhu) said:
“The souls of the believers are in a partition from the (visible) earth, they go anywhere they want to.”
He also quotes the great Imam Malik as saying:
“I was informed that the soul is free; it goes anywhere it wants to.”
The above has also been confirmed by great Classical scholars such as Imam al-Suyuti and Imam Ibn-Hajar al-Haytami in their Fatawa.
However, a person who experiences the spiritual presence of the Prophet (salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) at any gathering should normally keep such things to him or herself. In general, this is a matter of the unseen and it is best to not to delve into the issue unnecessarily.

I just give my input about their core beliefs. I did not say whether they are right or wrong.

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

It seems like we know what love for the Prophet (PBUH) is more than the Companions (RA). They never celebrated anything yet we invent a new thing and start calling it a البدعة الحسنة.

And you are right the person totally abused Allah by that saying of his.

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

The common problem with most brelwis is that if they believe in something they say it is the belief of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jammah and they do not have a clue about what the other Imams have said. This is a common trend among them though not all are like that.

I recommend the الموسوعة الفقيهة الكويتية The Kawati Fiqh Encyclopedia to those interested about learning the beliefs of all the schools of thought in Islam.

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

Peace vroom

Deobandis and Barelvis are actually not just pure fiqhs they have some nuanced differences in aqeedah too ... I think it is fairly safe for me to say that in the pure fiqh aspects I am Deobandi, but in matters of adab which come from tariqah and in some matters of aqeedah I have adopted more Sufi understandings ... The critical matter is that I draw a distinction between my poetic expressions regarding RasoolAllah (SAW) and my actual core beliefs ...

I have overcome certain ideas ... I do believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) is alive like the shuhadah but with even more prominence. There is enough evidence to see that the actions of the Ummah are presented before RasoolAllah (SAW). I also believe he (SAW) tasted death ... The way I come around this apparent problem is to say that whereas other people are "dead" in state - he (SAW) merely transitioned from one living state to another through the act of dying. It allows all those references that talk about him (SAW) seeing us and being given durood from us as fitting in to this picture.

So in matters of aqeedah I am trying to go back to the source as much as possible. Because I believe when the differences between Barelvis and Deobandis became more prevalent they both drifted away from a central understanding of aqeedah, really to create a bigger and bigger wedge between themselves, rather than for any other reason.

To explain about me I have been brought up as Deobandi and I studied Islam with Salafis ... I felt something was lacking and to cut a long story short I took bayah in the Shadhili tariqah - In this environment I now sit with Malikis, Shafi's, Barelvi Hanafis and other Deobandi Hanafis ... Also Turkish Hanafis and Syrian Hanafis ... and as a result I can claim that we have a forum that is blind to each other's differences and that is better adab than being sectarian ... Most of my fellow mureeds in tariqah are Barlevi from the UK.

It is not our devotion to being Deobandi or Barlevi by hating each other - but by showing we can be better than each other. Islam is about being inclusive so let's start to find excuses to include each other.

I also believe in Wassila and potential wasail from Awliya too ... but this has to be contextualised and explained so I will not get in to that here ...

Regarding 'ilm ul ghaib ... Deobandis actually DO believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) has been given more ilm of the ghaib than others. And this is the reason how and why prophesies come from him (SAW). The contention historically has always been whether this 'ilm is complete or not ... and I still do not believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) has been given "complete" knowledge of the ghaib. Salafis take this one step further and assert that none of the ghaib is known to anyone except Allah (SWT) and that may be due to their very restrictive understanding of the term "ghaib" ... in which we should also include "future outcomes" and matters of "jannah" ...

Salafis view Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) as a pure vessel that channels knowledge to the people, I believe he (SAW) should be credited for his wisdom and character and that he is given knowledge and state that our knowledge is like a drop in the ocean compared to his (SAW)'s knowledge - Salafis cannot accept that, because a vessel will just relay all the information to the people so they are more comfortable with the idea that all Earthly knowledge may equal the knowledge of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... Conversely Barelvis don't even see it fit to ask the question ... and will not say openly that the knowledge of RasoolAllah (SAW) is "given" to him (SAW) ... They would rather poetically leave open ends and simply say that "RasoolAllah (SAW)'s knowledge is an ocean compared to the collective knowledge of the world" and leave it as that ... Salafi brothers get itchy when they hear that ... So it is all about these subtle things ... that we should rise above ... and people of Sunnah are people who adopt and embody the Sunnah so the Sunnah tells us to be kind and considerate and make excuses for one another ... yet we want to draw lines and make difference ... That is not Sunnah !!!

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

Yet if we look closely at the belief we can see it does not present huge problems ... Without excepting the belief itself it is possible to accept them as Muslims. Being made out of Noor - whether this is literal or metaphoric or some other understanding that we do not know about is another matter ... the fact that they say "he (SAW) is made" is enough to say that the Barelvis DO not consider him Divine, because whatever he (SAW) is made from - he (SAW) is still "made" ...

If they say he (SAW) can be present anywhere and anytime I also have no problem with this ... because it is my belief that Allah (SWT) cannot be contained in time and space ... so even if someone claims RasoolAllah (SAW) to be in all time and space that is very clearly demarcating that space and time encapsulate RasoolAllah (SAW), making him (SAW) subject to transitory states and not Immutable which is a Divine Attribute.

We may not be able to make that "positive" step to conclude such matters - but at the same time we should not deem them to be problematic either. And I am not saying that you making that assertion either way ... but for the benefit of this thread I think we owe it to the Barelvis to say our beliefs are still compatible ... even if they are not completely coherent.

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

I think it is better for me not to hinder your path…

I can look internally in my case I have needed to make Tauba
Disrespecting Prophet

I plan on asking the Prophet peace and blessings upon him and his family for forgiveness when i get close to his Resting Place (bacause the Qul is to go to him), otherwise I have asked Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala for forgiveness but it is a case of ‘while you perceive not’

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

On Issues of lesser Importance

Them beliefs are from the virtues of the Prophet peace and blessings upon him and his family as given in the Quran and Sunnah, you are not required to accept us as Muslims for having them Beliefs but you too should take them and realize the major influence for you to accept those is from Ashiq-e-Rasool AlaHazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi Al-Mujadid Rehmatullah Alaih.

I would have thought the shadhili tariqa would be teaching something similar to those Barelvi beliefs, although i do realize nuh keller is not Barelvi and more closer to being a deobandi. what is the teaching of Shaykh Al Yaqubi? From what i have seen of the Shaykh he is definitely Barelvi, but i have not researched properly. Just seen him call Imam Raza Khan as Mujadid, whose books his father encouraged him to read and if I recall correctly he mentioned from the virtues of Shaam is that the people are Ashiq e Rasool and the virtues of the land is that they have many Mazars of the Awliya and Sahaba. For these reasons I have him down as a Barelvi, Shafi, Shadhili

If I am not wrong in my assumptions, and there is no Deception at work (which i highly doubt due to respect of Shaykh Al Yaqubi), shouldn't you be making taqleed of your Shaykh?

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

Brother, sorry that I missed your post and could not reply earlier. Anyhow, from what I know and understand, I am writing this post to answer what you asked, plus I am adding many things not related to what you asked, but to clarify our (Sunni) beliefs.

Berelvi: There is no such thing as Berelvi (or sect of Ahmed Raza khan Berelvi). Aqeedah of Ahmed Raza Khan Saheb (RA) was Sunni Aqeedah that Sunnis are following since early days of Islam. Ahmed Raza Khan Saheb only debated and defended Sunni Aqeedah getting diluted and corrupted from Deobandi influence.

Aqeedah and Imam Abu-Hanifa (RA): Hanafis follow the Fiqah given by Imam-Abu Hanifa from his understanding of Shariah in Quran and what is given by Prophet (SAW). Even though Aqeedah of Imam Abu Hanifa was same as any Muslim, we Muslims (Sunnis) do not say that we follow the Aqeedah of Imam Abu Hanifa or Aqeedah of any past scholars or schools. Sunnis follow the Aqeedah given by Prophet (SAW), referred in Quran and teaching of Prophet (SAW). That is why Aqeedahs of most Muslims (barring Wahabis and wahabi influenced sects) are more or less same whatever Fiqah they follow.

Prophets (AS): Prophets (AS) are born Prophets and not chosen as Prophets. They know they are prophets from their birth. Prophets (AS) close family members also know about their Prophet-hood.

It is way of Allah that he tells a story in Quran that is taken as general truth and for guidance, unless Allah himself mentions something clearly in Quran as exception or it is exception in way that story or event could not be repeated.

Prophets (AS) knowing of their prophet-hood before their declaration of prophet-hood at appropriate time, can be seen in Quran from events of Isa (AS), Musa (AS), Ibrahim (AS), and so on. For instance:

Isa (AS) claimed his prophet-hood just after his birth (when a child could not even speak) even though he declared his Prophet-hood (ministry) when he (AS) was in his late 20s.

Musa (AS): Mother, Sister, Jew scholars, even People in Pharoah court knew of his coming. Jews knew that Musa (AS) as prophet would lead them to liberty. So, to think that all knew about Musa (AS) prophet-hood since his birth, but Musa (AS) did not know about himself, is ignorance. That is different matter, that as public consumption, Musa (AS) declared his Prophet-hood much later in life.

It is clear from Quran that Ibrahim (AS) was guided from childhood, and also started preaching to Kuffars by breaking their idols, then questioning them. Stories about Sun, Moon, Stars, is event taken place for human consumptions, and reasons Allah mentioned the event in Quran is for human guidance. In story of Ibrahim (AS), there is message for believers that one should use their intellect and come to logical answer for their beliefs, even when accepting and worshipping Allah (else, blind faith is same as kufr).

As for Prophet (SAW), one can find numerous stories in any reputable Seerat-ul-Nabi (SAW) mentioning events that started much before Prophet (SAW) birth. Relatives close to Prophet (SAW) not only observed but felt those events. Even Prophet (SAW) name Muhammad (SAW) was given by Allah to Prophet (SAW) through his grandfather, and mother who named Prophet (SAW) Ahmed [both names no one ever had before Prophet (SAW)]. Prophet (SAW) did not get these name at birth, but had these names even before Adam (AS) was created.

Many past prophets (AS) not only knew of Prophet (SAW) by name, but predicted about Prophet (SAW). So, it is obvious that Prophet (SAW) was prophet (AS) before birth, else prediction that Quran also mentions, would have been invalid.

To believe that Prophet (SAW) did not know of his own prophet-hood since birth is ignorance. Just imagine, if anyone believes that Prophet (SAW) did not knew of his Prophet-hood from birth than how ignorance that would be.

Prophets are guide, but prophets (AS) not knowing about themselves and their missions, means they would need guidance to become guide, that is ridiculous as they are not guide of worldly affairs that can be analysed or confirmed, but affairs that cannot be analysed or confirmed, and that means prophet (AS) himself when guided (by angels) would find difficulty to believe, as if prophets were ordinary persons without knowing themselves and their missions beforehand, than they could not even analyse or confirm whatever guidance they would get (from angels), and that means doubt, and with such doubt a guide cannot be a guide (a prophet cannot be a prophet).

But apart of that, considering Prophet (SAW):

1: Not knowing about his (SAW) prophet-hood since birth means Isa (AS) had more knowledge of himself then Prophet (SAW) … something we Muslims do not believe, as we believe that prophet (SAW) knowledge and status amongst Prophets (AS), is highest ever.

2: Incidence of Isa (AS) proves that Prophets knows about himself even at time of birth. Isa (AS) knowing about himself could not be exception, and Allah mentioned the event in Quran for us to know the extend of Prophets knowledge about himself. Isa (AS) knowing about himself could not be exception, because there was no need for it, as Mariam (AS) did not needed to get her innocence confirmed from Isa (AS). There could have been many natural ways for Allah to get that confirmed and if abnormal ways was required, then also, it would have been more appropriate for angels to show up rather a newly born child start speaking.

3: Not knowing about his (SAW) prophet-hood from birth means, possibility of Prophet (SAW) getting involved in sins and malpractices that any ordinary child could get involved, especially when the child is brought up in society full of corruption and sin. To even have such possibility (or having belief of such possibility) means, denying Quran, as even possibility would have made Prophet (SAW) unsuitable for prophet-hood, but that possibility is non-existent as His (SAW) prophet-hood was confirmed years before his birth.

4: Apart of reasons mentioned above, there are many stories connected to birth of Prophet (SAW) that only unbeliever would reject. These stories shows that not only prophet (SAW) but even people close to Prophet (SAW) got affected and all knew from childhood of prophet (SAW) that Prophet (SAW) was Prophet (what believers believed) or special child (what non-believers believed).

What we Muslims believe is that Prophet (SAW) was first creation of Allah and most beloved to Allah of all his creations. Further, Prophet (SAW) and all Prophets never had memory moved to subconscious, what human being goes through once born in this world, as Prophets themselves are not going through test but are guide for those who are going through test (humans whose memory related to pre-birth gets moved to their subconscious).

Actually, our belief is that Prophets do not only know of their prophet-hood from their birth (rather, from time of their creation), but they know the Shariah they would be asked by Allah to introduce to people after their declaring Prophet-hood, such that they do not violate the Shariah from their childhood, what they are expected to teach once they declare their prophet-hood (except what Allah allows them).

Prophet (SAW) has ilm-ul-Gayeb: Ilm-ul-Gayeb is relative term that Shaitan (and his followers) have used as absolute term to misguide many. Any ilm (knowledge) that one have and others could not acquire (by any means) would be ilm for one who has that ilm but ilm-ul-gayeb for those who do not.

Allah has ilm of all things, but creations of Allah can only have ilm from Allah. Amongst creations of Allah, it is our belief that no one has more ilm than Prophet (SAW). Ilm that Prophet (SAW) has is ilm for him (knowledge he obtained from Allah) but ilm-ul-gayeb for us (knowledge that we could not get by any means). Hence, when we Muslims say that Prophet (SAW) has ilm-ul-gayeb, it only means that ilm that prophet (SAW) has is ilm-ul-gayeb for us, or ilm that we can never acquire (by any means). [For Prophet (SAW), those ilm was ilm acquired from Allah … but for us they are ilm-ul-gayeb as we could not acquire them by any means].

Prophet (SAW) and question of hazir-o-nazir: Actually, it is not hazir-o-nazir, but it is being present at various places anytime. It is Our beliefs that Ruh do not die and only nafs dies. Ruh gets separated from Jism (body) and enters world of Ruh (spiritual world = Alam-e-Barzakh = World behind curtain).

Spiritual world has its own dimension, where Ruh is free from constraints of time, space, distance and most material parameters of material world, thus, they can be at any place in material world at anytime (could be simultaneously present at several places in material world at same time).

To understand in simple way, one should think of Angles or Iblees, as they could also be present at any place anytime . For instance, Angel Israel (AS) take away life of a person far apart at same time, and Iblees (Shaitan) could be misguiding a person far apart at same time. Same is true about Ruh, that they can be present at places far apart at same time.

It is surprising that some people may accept (or would not question belief) that Angels or Iblees could be present at places far apart at same time, but for them Ruh of a person cannot.

Presence of Ruh, Angels and Shaitan at different places is different from Allah being Hazir-o-Nazir, because Allah's realm of presence is beyond time, place, spiritual world, material world, etc (rather our knowledge of Allah and his realm is so limited that we cannot say much other than that, Allah is present at all places at all the time, without knowing how and in what way) but presence of Angels, Iblees and Ruh is confined to limited presence in spiritual and material world and is not present at all places at all time, rather at place they wants to be and are allowed to be (by Allah).

Prophet (SAW) is Nur: Muslims know that Allah made human body out of clay. For Muslims, this body of clay is not what humans are, but it is the Ruh that is reality of humans. Anyhow, unbelievers think humans are their body made of clay, so they make fuss on the subject because of ignorance, but for Muslims, Ruh (or human reality) is not made of clay.

Ruhs have different essence. Ruh of Prophet (SAW) is much superior then any creation of Allah. Even anything attached with prophet (SAW), including his body or blood, due to him (SAW) being superior to any of Allah's creation, becomes superior to any other creations of Allah, be they Jinn (made of fire) or Angels (made of light).

Allah is everywhere (Allah is Omni-present) is Aqeedah of every Muslim, rather every human born and whose beliefs are not corrupted by indoctrination of Shaitan. Allah is everywhere can be proven from Quran, logic, as well as rationality. Since it can be long discussion, I am leaving that here, but I am willing to discuss and prove what I wrote, if anyone wants to. Anyhow, one ayah from Quran would be enough for anyone who can think.

2:115 (Yusuf Ali): To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

Whithersoever = Whichever place or anywhere

So according to above ayah (2:115): One can turn in any direction one wants to (towards any place ... or anywhere), be that direction front, back, right, left, up, down or towards oneself, Allah would be present.

Further, Allah is all-pervading (that adds to Allah being everywhere)

Pervading means:

Encompassing = Surrounding from all sides.
Infusing = Filling
Diffusing = circulating
Infiltrating = Penetrating

All = everything irrespective

and so on ...

Allah is present everywhere, but in what way and how is beyond human knowledge or understanding as we do not even have anything that we can similitude Allah.

Allah do not have body or form to say that Allah is present in 'his body or form' at any place (be they farash or Arash), neither Allah is made of material things that we can say that he is in or out of material things he created. For understanding we can talk about time or space, that time and space in material world is present everywhere. Though such similitude is not even near to presence of Allah, as their (time and space) presences is only applicable to created material world and Allah is beyond time or space or any of his creations.