Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

[vroom]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

@TLK

Vroom, I am quoting one of my post from long time ago, to share the core belief difference between Deobandis and Barelvis

Barelvi hazraat believethat he is alive, was aalimul ghaib, made out of noor, and can be present anywhere, anytime

Ok. That reply to post of Psyah was not Barelvi/deobandi differences, but just limited to core Barelvi (Ahl-us-Sunnah) beliefs
The actual Fatwa of Imam Raza Khan Rehmatullah Alaih says it is makruh to call the Prophet peace and blessings upon him as Alimul Ghaib

As for me I would probably answer yes, as in very much possible, to all those beliefs. There is certainly nothing, profoundly, wrong in them

Regarding being present in places, this is from Barelvi, no i mean Maliki site:

Q & A: The Mawlid-un-Nabi | Muwatta.com - The People of Madinah

The blessed body of the Prophet (salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) is buried in Medina. But his Soul, like the souls of all Prophets and pious believers, is free to roam in the Kingdom of Allah to attend blessed gatherings. Evidence for this is what occurred on the Night of the Mi’raj when all the Prophets gathered in al-Quds to meet and pray behind our Prophet (salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam). Many of them met him again in the Heavens.

Ibn al-Qayyim mentions in his Kitab al-Ruh that the famous Companion Sayyidna Salman al-Farisi (radiya Allahu ‘anhu) said:
“The souls of the believers are in a partition from the (visible) earth, they go anywhere they want to.”
He also quotes the great Imam Malik as saying:
“I was informed that the soul is free; it goes anywhere it wants to.”
The above has also been confirmed by great Classical scholars such as Imam al-Suyuti and Imam Ibn-Hajar al-Haytami in their Fatawa.
However, a person who experiences the spiritual presence of the Prophet (salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) at any gathering should normally keep such things to him or herself. In general, this is a matter of the unseen and it is best to not to delve into the issue unnecessarily.

[TLK]

@vroom:9896721

As for me I would probably answer yes, as in very much possible, to all those beliefs. There is nothing, profoundly, wrong in them

I just give my input about their core beliefs. I did not say whether they are right or wrong.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

@Ibn_Sadique

I am sure you will agree with me that the blessed Companions (May Allah Almighty be pleased with them all) understood and practiced Islam better than anybody since – this has been vouched by Allah Almighty in the blessed Quran.

If you read the blessed Seerah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) you will note that none of his Companions celebrated his passing away. In fact all of Madinah was in distraught, shocked and extremely in pain for his parting away from them.

There was no ‘celebrations’ in Madinah for his passing away and him meeting his Creator. If there was need for any ‘celebrations’ people of Madinah would have done it there and then. The reason for their sadness was that they knew that from then on they cannot enjoy his companionship any more!

Please go and read the blessed Seerah of Rasool Allah (peace be upon him)

This is sheer blasphemy brother: You are insulting Allah almighty in your ignorance and you must turn to Allah Almighty and seek repentance from what you have written! Allah Almighty is above what you have attributed to Him.

Allah Almighty doesn’t need any brides and neither is He a bride to anyone?

Where have got this stuff from? Quran? Ahadith?

It seems like we know what love for the Prophet (PBUH) is more than the Companions (RA). They never celebrated anything yet we invent a new thing and start calling it a البدعة الحسنة.

And you are right the person totally abused Allah by that saying of his.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

@Insaaniyat

The word ‘Wahhabi’ is a derogatory term. For those who do not know Wahhab is one of the 99 glorious names of Allah and the man’s name was **Abdul Wahhab ***(i.e slave of Wahhab) *and he was a reviver of the true ways of the Ahl us Sunnah in the Arabian Peninsula as per the methodology of the blessed first three generations of Muslims who are known as the ‘‘Salaf’’.

This is highly misleading. What you have mentioned are not ‘sunni’ beliefs at all rather they are barelvi beliefs. And all the 4 madhabs of Ahl us Sunnah have unanimously agreed that the Barelvi aqeedah is one of shirk (**Note: **This does not mean that common Barelvis are kaafir since ignorance is an excuse from takfir). Outside the subcontinent, Barelvis and their beliefs are seen as a joke.

You mean the differences between Barelvis and Ahl us Sunnah?

My responses are in brown font:

[TABLE=“width: 662”]

Sunnis
Wahabis
Differences

1
Sunni believe that Allah is everywhere, has no body, form (physical or whatever), place, or direction, free from time and space. Position and state of Allah is constant (never changes), nor depends on Allah creating anything or not.

The way Allah was, Allah is, and Allah will be. For Allah past, present and future is same.

For Sunnis, throne of Allah is power he has over his creation. Sitting on throne (Astawa on kursi) is metaphorical (just like one says, a king sat on throne)
Wahabis are Anthropomorphist (Mujassami) who believe that Allah has hands, legs, eyes, fingers, face, foot, etc … in other words, has form just like human … or Allah created humans in his own image … or humans are born in image of Allah (Nauzobillah)

For Wahabis, state of Allah changes (that means, his past, present and future is not same). Allah depends on what Allah created (for instance, once he created throne, he sat on throne).

Wahabis beliefs came from Abdul Wahab following Ibn Tamiya, according to whose statement and thinking, if one says that Allah has no physical body, then one has decided that there is no God, because the existence cannot be true without physical feature (for Sunnis this belief in itself is kufr). Ibn Tamiya was sent to Prison on charges of heresy (he was arrested and convicted of preaching heretic beliefs).
(Most vital)

Allah is certainly **not **everywhere.

“In this connection, a hadith has been related by Malik in his Muwatta’ and by Muslim in his Sahih, that Muawiya ibn al-Hakam came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and told him, “I am very newly from the Jahiliyya, and now Allah has brought Islam,” and he proceeded to ask about various Jahiliyya practices, until at last he said that he had slapped his slave girl, and asked if he should free her, as was obligatory if she was a believer. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) requested that she be brought, and then asked her, “Where is Allah?” and she said, “Above the sky (Fi al-sama)”; whereupon he asked her, “Who am I?” and she said, “You are the Messenger of Allah”; at which he said, Free her, “for she is a believer” (Sahih Muslim)”

Even Pharaoh, the enemy of Allah who disputed with Moosa (peace be upon him) about his Lord, told his minister Haman (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Haman! Build me a tower that I may arrive at the ways, - the ways of the heavens, and I may look upon the god of Moosa …” [40:36-37]

Having said that this issue is a matter of great controversy between the asharis and salafis. But the Barelvis have no place in this debate. Both Salafis and Asharis reject Barelvi aqeedah.

2
Sunnis believe that Prophet (SAW) and Saints would be given permission from Allah to intercede on judgment day, and Allah would accept their intercession.
Wahabis do not believe on intercession.
(Most vital)

There are no saints in Islam. However yes the Prophet can intercede as well as the martyrs. We ‘w​ahhabis’ do not dispute this.

4
Sunnis believe that Prophets (AS) are born Prophets and they know that. Prophets (AS) does not go through any test nor can do any sin. They (AS) are created for the purpose of reminding people what people already promised Allah before their birth.

Prophets (AS) declares their prophet-hood when Allah wants them to. Whatever Prophets (AS) did in this world is just for consumption of people, who learn or get guided from Prophets’ life.
Wahabis consider Prophets (AS) just like any human being, whom Allah chose to be Prophet, and that they do not have any inherent special status above humans.
(Vital)

A Prophet is not born a Prophet. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) was not a Prophet before the age of 40. Prophets only become Prophets at the time of the first wahy (revelation). The case of Ibrahim (as) is a classic example of this

The Prophet (saw) was confused and scared at the time of his first revelation and did not know what had happened. Khadijah (ra) had to take the Prophet (saw) to her Christian cousin Waraqa bin Nawfil to ask about what had happened.

Clearly he did not know what had happened and he certainly wasn’t born knowing that he was a Prophet.

6
Sunnis believe that one can ask Allah directly or using Prophet (SAW) and Saints (pious people) as intermediaries. Though preferred method is asking through intermediaries.

Sunnis also consider that it is better if one recites Darood on Prophet (SAW), before asking from Allah anything.
Wahabis do not believe in using name of Prophet (SAW) or pious individuals as intermediaries when asking Allah, and consider this practice as shirk or polytheism.
(Vital)

Did the Prophet (saw) and the Sahabah use intermediaries?

7
Sunnis consider takfeer (declaring Muslims as kafir … for whatever reason) as biggest sin that would lead a person to hell.
Wahabis do takfeer all the time, right, left and centre … and consider takfeer as their right.
(Vital)

The biggest sin is shirk. Not takfir.

When we have people claiming that their 12 imams are nauzubillah divine or infallible or that the Quran has been changed (as some shias do) or they start worshipping graves like Barelvis then it is obvious shirk. We prefer to call a spade a spade.

8
Sunnis do not use ayahs in Quran on Muslims that is meant for Kuffars.
Wahabis use Quranic ayahs meant for Kuffars on Muslims.
(Vital)

This is an unsubstantiated allegation.

9
Sunnis celebrate Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi, a form of gathering where people jointly remember, praise and celebrate day Prophet (SAW) was born.

Even though Sunnis show love and remembrance towards Prophet (SAW) every day, Sunnis consider Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi as special occasion for showing love and respect for Prophet (SAW).
Wahabi do not believe in celebrating Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi … rather they oppose it using all tricks they have (including violence), calling it wrongful, innovation and sinful.
(Important)

The majority of Ulema of the 4 madhabs of Ahl us Sunnah reject the practise of Milad al Nabi. The only exceptions were Ibn Hajr and Imam Suyuti. Otherwise the majority of all classical ulema agree that this is a bidah.

And on the day of judgement the people who introduced Bidah will be turned away from the Prophet (saw) at the Lake of Kauthar, no matter how pious they may have been.

10
Sunnis commemorate the day Saints and known religious personalities died with dedication and enthusiasm, calling that day as Urs.
Wahabis call/consider these practices (Urs) as unlawful, wrongful innovations, shirk or polytheism, doing propaganda that Sunnis got it from Hindus.
(Important)

Urs and visiting shrines is both bidah and shirk.

It is haram to build anything on top of a grave. Be it a tomb or anything else at all.

According to all 4 madhabs~Hanafi, Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali it is bidah and a grave major sin to build anything on top of a grave.

This is the number one reason why Ahl us Sunnah rejects Barelvis and it is why Barelvis have become a laughing stock worldwide. No scholar of Islam outside the Barelvi group has ever permitted it and Ahl us Sunnah is unanimous on the sinfulness of building structures over graves.

And yes any bidah in Islam is unacceptable. Urs and all these commemmorations are pure bidah bidah bidah and even shirk.

11
Sunnis do not believe that death means end, rather it is movement from this world to next (inteqal), where Ruh are alive, can see us, can listen to us, and can pray for us.

Alam-e-Barzakh = world beyond curtain (world that we cannot see, though they can see us)

Sunnis visit mausoleums, tombs, shrines of saints, and consider graves as doorway between this world and next.

Sunnis ask saints at their mausoleums to pray for them, and believe saints’ tawassul for the blessings of Allah.
Wahabis consider this believe of Sunnis as great sin.

For Wahabis, once a person is dead, he in any form is no more there, thus a dead person can do nothing, not even pray for anyone.
(Important)

No the occupants of the grave can not pray or intercede for anyone. This has no evidence from the Quran or authentic ahadeeth.

None of these beliefs have any daleel (evidence) from the Quran or authentic ahadeeth.

12
Sunnis believe on Saints and Sufis, and believe on healing powers of taweez coming from pious saints
Wahabis do not believe on saints, or on taweez.

Yes we proudly reject the very concept of sainthood.

And taweez does not protect anyone. Rather it is Allah who protects.

13
Sunnis follow fiqah or Islamic laws given by one of 4 imans Hanfi, Hanbali, Malaki and Shafi.
Wahabis do not follow fiqah of Sunni Imams though claim they follow Imam Hanbal. Wahabis mostly follow Wahabi sheikh.

Uhh…its Barelvis who do not follow the teachings of any of the 4 madhabs of Ahl us Sunnah. However they claim to follow the madhab of Imam Abu Haneefah although they do not.

Grave worship, building structures over graves, visiting the graves of the pious dead and seeking their intercession has been rejected by all 4 imams and madhabs of Ahl us Sunnah.

14
Sunni beliefs are taken from Quran, Sunnah of Prophet (SAW), and what later generation followed.
Wahabis take their teaching from understanding of Abdul Wahab, who was follower of Ibn Tamiya. Though Wahabi make tall claims that they follow Quran and Sunnah.

No, we take our understanding of Islam from the Quran and Hadeeth and the first three generations of Muslims who are known as the ‘Salaf’ and due to our strict observance of the Sunnah we recognise and reject any practise which was not done by the Prophet (saw) or the sahabah (ra)-whether that practise be Milad al Nabi, grave visiting, seeking the intercession of the dead and the construction of structures over graves.

15
Sunnis believe that Prophets (AS) know about their prophet-hood, their duty, and also shareet (if) they came with, from birth.

Prophets (AS) forgetting the purpose they were created from birth or at any time, means they themselves needs reminding (later in their life), and thus it would be flaw in them as well as flaw in their creation, that is impossible, as Allah creating them for a purpose, and Allah is flawless

Already refuted above. This false belief has no basis in either the Quran or Sunnah and has in fact been rejected by evidence from the Sirah during the time of Rasulallah (saw)'s first revelation.

The common problem with most brelwis is that if they believe in something they say it is the belief of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jammah and they do not have a clue about what the other Imams have said. This is a common trend among them though not all are like that.

I recommend the الموسوعة الفقيهة الكويتية The Kawati Fiqh Encyclopedia to those interested about learning the beliefs of all the schools of thought in Islam.

[psyah]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

@vroom

Well it would be futile for me to have a position on subtle aqidah differences
but i would say the cure to rightly-held takfir is Tauba and not finding reasons. The matter between Barelvis and deobandis is simple, that is linked to the lack of Adab at the start and prior to the formation of Deoband. I don’t really understand how you can proudly claim to be deobandi yet talk about Adab, or talk about Adab in present context and not previous.

It all seems like a setup, a conspiracy

Peace vroom

Deobandis and Barelvis are actually not just pure fiqhs they have some nuanced differences in aqeedah too … I think it is fairly safe for me to say that in the pure fiqh aspects I am Deobandi, but in matters of adab which come from tariqah and in some matters of aqeedah I have adopted more Sufi understandings … The critical matter is that I draw a distinction between my poetic expressions regarding RasoolAllah (SAW) and my actual core beliefs …

I have overcome certain ideas … I do believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) is alive like the shuhadah but with even more prominence. There is enough evidence to see that the actions of the Ummah are presented before RasoolAllah (SAW). I also believe he (SAW) tasted death … The way I come around this apparent problem is to say that whereas other people are “dead” in state - he (SAW) merely transitioned from one living state to another through the act of dying. It allows all those references that talk about him (SAW) seeing us and being given durood from us as fitting in to this picture.

So in matters of aqeedah I am trying to go back to the source as much as possible. Because I believe when the differences between Barelvis and Deobandis became more prevalent they both drifted away from a central understanding of aqeedah, really to create a bigger and bigger wedge between themselves, rather than for any other reason.

To explain about me I have been brought up as Deobandi and I studied Islam with Salafis … I felt something was lacking and to cut a long story short I took bayah in the Shadhili tariqah - In this environment I now sit with Malikis, Shafi’s, Barelvi Hanafis and other Deobandi Hanafis … Also Turkish Hanafis and Syrian Hanafis … and as a result I can claim that we have a forum that is blind to each other’s differences and that is better adab than being sectarian … Most of my fellow mureeds in tariqah are Barlevi from the UK.

It is not our devotion to being Deobandi or Barlevi by hating each other - but by showing we can be better than each other. Islam is about being inclusive so let’s start to find excuses to include each other.

I also believe in Wassila and potential wasail from Awliya too … but this has to be contextualised and explained so I will not get in to that here …

Regarding 'ilm ul ghaib … Deobandis actually DO believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) has been given more ilm of the ghaib than others. And this is the reason how and why prophesies come from him (SAW). The contention historically has always been whether this 'ilm is complete or not … and I still do not believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) has been given “complete” knowledge of the ghaib. Salafis take this one step further and assert that none of the ghaib is known to anyone except Allah (SWT) and that may be due to their very restrictive understanding of the term “ghaib” … in which we should also include “future outcomes” and matters of “jannah” …

Salafis view Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) as a pure vessel that channels knowledge to the people, I believe he (SAW) should be credited for his wisdom and character and that he is given knowledge and state that our knowledge is like a drop in the ocean compared to his (SAW)'s knowledge - Salafis cannot accept that, because a vessel will just relay all the information to the people so they are more comfortable with the idea that all Earthly knowledge may equal the knowledge of RasoolAllah (SAW) … Conversely Barelvis don’t even see it fit to ask the question … and will not say openly that the knowledge of RasoolAllah (SAW) is “given” to him (SAW) … They would rather poetically leave open ends and simply say that “RasoolAllah (SAW)'s knowledge is an ocean compared to the collective knowledge of the world” and leave it as that … Salafi brothers get itchy when they hear that … So it is all about these subtle things … that we should rise above … and people of Sunnah are people who adopt and embody the Sunnah so the Sunnah tells us to be kind and considerate and make excuses for one another … yet we want to draw lines and make difference … That is not Sunnah !!!

[psyah]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

@TLK

Vroom, I am quoting one of my post from long time ago, to share the core belief difference between Deobandis and Barelvis

Barelvi hazraat believethat he is alive, was aalimul ghaib, made out of noor, and can be present anywhere, anytime

Yet if we look closely at the belief we can see it does not present huge problems … Without excepting the belief itself it is possible to accept them as Muslims. Being made out of Noor - whether this is literal or metaphoric or some other understanding that we do not know about is another matter … the fact that they say “he (SAW) is made” is enough to say that the Barelvis DO not consider him Divine, because whatever he (SAW) is made from - he (SAW) is still “made” …

If they say he (SAW) can be present anywhere and anytime I also have no problem with this … because it is my belief that Allah (SWT) cannot be contained in time and space … so even if someone claims RasoolAllah (SAW) to be in all time and space that is very clearly demarcating that space and time encapsulate RasoolAllah (SAW), making him (SAW) subject to transitory states and not Immutable which is a Divine Attribute.

We may not be able to make that “positive” step to conclude such matters - but at the same time we should not deem them to be problematic either. And I am not saying that you making that assertion either way … but for the benefit of this thread I think we owe it to the Barelvis to say our beliefs are still compatible … even if they are not completely coherent.

[vroom]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

@psyah

Peace vroom

Deobandis and Barelvis are actually not just pure fiqhs they have some nuanced differences in aqeedah too … I think it is fairly safe for me to say that in the pure fiqh aspects I am Deobandi, but in matters of adab which come from tariqah and in some matters of aqeedah I have adopted more Sufi understandings … The critical matter is that I draw a distinction between my poetic expressions regarding RasoolAllah (SAW) and my actual core beliefs …

I have overcome certain ideas … I do believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) is alive like the shuhadah but with even more prominence. There is enough evidence to see that the actions of the Ummah are presented before RasoolAllah (SAW). I also believe he (SAW) tasted death … The way I come around this apparent problem is to say that whereas other people are “dead” in state - he (SAW) merely transitioned from one living state to another through the act of dying. It allows all those references that talk about him (SAW) seeing us and being given durood from us as fitting in to this picture.

So in matters of aqeedah I am trying to go back to the source as much as possible. Because I believe when the differences between Barelvis and Deobandis became more prevalent they both drifted away from a central understanding of aqeedah, really to create a bigger and bigger wedge between themselves, rather than for any other reason.

To explain about me I have been brought up as Deobandi and I studied Islam with Salafis … I felt something was lacking and to cut a long story short I took bayah in the Shadhili tariqah - In this environment I now sit with Malikis, Shafi’s, Barelvi Hanafis and other Deobandi Hanafis … Also Turkish Hanafis and Syrian Hanafis … and as a result I can claim that we have a forum that is blind to each other’s differences and that is better adab than being sectarian … Most of my fellow mureeds in tariqah are Barlevi from the UK.

It is not our devotion to being Deobandi or Barlevi by hating each other - but by showing we can be better than each other. Islam is about being inclusive so let’s start to find excuses to include each other.

I also believe in Wassila and potential wasail from Awliya too … but this has to be contextualised and explained so I will not get in to that here …

Regarding 'ilm ul ghaib … Deobandis actually DO believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) has been given more ilm of the ghaib than others. And this is the reason how and why prophesies come from him (SAW). The contention historically has always been whether this 'ilm is complete or not … and I still do not believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) has been given “complete” knowledge of the ghaib. Salafis take this one step further and assert that none of the ghaib is known to anyone except Allah (SWT) and that may be due to their very restrictive understanding of the term “ghaib” … in which we should also include “future outcomes” and matters of “jannah” …

Salafis view Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) as a pure vessel that channels knowledge to the people, I believe he (SAW) should be credited for his wisdom and character and that he is given knowledge and state that our knowledge is like a drop in the ocean compared to his (SAW)'s knowledge - Salafis cannot accept that, because a vessel will just relay all the information to the people so they are more comfortable with the idea that all Earthly knowledge may equal the knowledge of RasoolAllah (SAW) … Conversely Barelvis don’t even see it fit to ask the question … and will not say openly that the knowledge of RasoolAllah (SAW) is “given” to him (SAW) … They would rather poetically leave open ends and simply say that “RasoolAllah (SAW)'s knowledge is an ocean compared to the collective knowledge of the world” and leave it as that … Salafi brothers get itchy when they hear that … So it is all about these subtle things … that we should rise above … and people of Sunnah are people who adopt and embody the Sunnah so the Sunnah tells us to be kind and considerate and make excuses for one another … yet we want to draw lines and make difference … That is not Sunnah !!!

I think it is better for me not to hinder your path…

I can look internally in my case I have needed to make Tauba
Disrespecting Prophet

I plan on asking the Prophet peace and blessings upon him and his family for forgiveness when i get close to his Resting Place (bacause the Qul is to go to him), otherwise I have asked Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala for forgiveness but it is a case of ‘while you perceive not’

[vroom]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

On Issues of lesser Importance

@psyah

Yet if we look closely at the belief we can see it does not present huge problems … Without excepting the belief itself it is possible to accept them as Muslims. Being made out of Noor - whether this is literal or metaphoric or some other understanding that we do not know about is another matter … the fact that they say “he (SAW) is made” is enough to say that the Barelvis DO not consider him Divine, because whatever he (SAW) is made from - he (SAW) is still “made” …

If they say he (SAW) can be present anywhere and anytime I also have no problem with this … because it is my belief that Allah (SWT) cannot be contained in time and space … so even if someone claims RasoolAllah (SAW) to be in all time and space that is very clearly demarcating that space and time encapsulate RasoolAllah (SAW), making him (SAW) subject to transitory states and not Immutable which is a Divine Attribute.

We may not be able to make that “positive” step to conclude such matters - but at the same time we should not deem them to be problematic either. And I am not saying that you making that assertion either way … but for the benefit of this thread I think we owe it to the Barelvis to say our beliefs are still compatible … even if they are not completely coherent.

Them beliefs are from the virtues of the Prophet peace and blessings upon him and his family as given in the Quran and Sunnah, you are not required to accept us as Muslims for having them Beliefs but you too should take them and realize the major influence for you to accept those is from Ashiq-e-Rasool AlaHazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi Al-Mujadid Rehmatullah Alaih.

I would have thought the shadhili tariqa would be teaching something similar to those Barelvi beliefs, although i do realize nuh keller is not Barelvi and more closer to being a deobandi. what is the teaching of Shaykh Al Yaqubi? From what i have seen of the Shaykh he is definitely Barelvi, but i have not researched properly. Just seen him call Imam Raza Khan as Mujadid, whose books his father encouraged him to read and if I recall correctly he mentioned from the virtues of Shaam is that the people are Ashiq e Rasool and the virtues of the land is that they have many Mazars of the Awliya and Sahaba. For these reasons I have him down as a Barelvi, Shafi, Shadhili

If I am not wrong in my assumptions, and there is no Deception at work (which i highly doubt due to respect of Shaykh Al Yaqubi), shouldn’t you be making taqleed of your Shaykh?

[Sa1eem]

Re: Debate over the Prophets Passing (PBUH)

@psyah

Brother Sa1eem

Although I am not Barelvi … I do not believe these beliefs are consistent with the core Barelvi (Ahl-us-Sunnah) beliefs … Please can you give the reference for these beliefs - Is there a book on these because I have Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar by Imam Abu Hanifah - I would like to compare these ideas against the book. JazakAllahuKhair.

Brother, sorry that I missed your post and could not reply earlier. Anyhow, from what I know and understand, I am writing this post to answer what you asked, plus I am adding many things not related to what you asked, but to clarify our (Sunni) beliefs.

Berelvi: There is no such thing as Berelvi (or sect of Ahmed Raza khan Berelvi). Aqeedah of Ahmed Raza Khan Saheb (RA) was Sunni Aqeedah that Sunnis are following since early days of Islam. Ahmed Raza Khan Saheb only debated and defended Sunni Aqeedah getting diluted and corrupted from Deobandi influence.

Aqeedah and Imam Abu-Hanifa (RA): Hanafis follow the Fiqah given by Imam-Abu Hanifa from his understanding of Shariah in Quran and what is given by Prophet (SAW). Even though Aqeedah of Imam Abu Hanifa was same as any Muslim, we Muslims (Sunnis) do not say that we follow the Aqeedah of Imam Abu Hanifa or Aqeedah of any past scholars or schools. Sunnis follow the Aqeedah given by Prophet (SAW), referred in Quran and teaching of Prophet (SAW). That is why Aqeedahs of most Muslims (barring Wahabis and wahabi influenced sects) are more or less same whatever Fiqah they follow.

Prophets (AS): Prophets (AS) are born Prophets and not chosen as Prophets. They know they are prophets from their birth. Prophets (AS) close family members also know about their Prophet-hood.

It is way of Allah that he tells a story in Quran that is taken as general truth and for guidance, unless Allah himself mentions something clearly in Quran as exception or it is exception in way that story or event could not be repeated.

Prophets (AS) knowing of their prophet-hood before their declaration of prophet-hood at appropriate time, can be seen in Quran from events of Isa (AS), Musa (AS), Ibrahim (AS), and so on. For instance:

Isa (AS) claimed his prophet-hood just after his birth (when a child could not even speak) even though he declared his Prophet-hood (ministry) when he (AS) was in his late 20s.

Musa (AS): Mother, Sister, Jew scholars, even People in Pharoah court knew of his coming. Jews knew that Musa (AS) as prophet would lead them to liberty. So, to think that all knew about Musa (AS) prophet-hood since his birth, but Musa (AS) did not know about himself, is ignorance. That is different matter, that as public consumption, Musa (AS) declared his Prophet-hood much later in life.

It is clear from Quran that Ibrahim (AS) was guided from childhood, and also started preaching to Kuffars by breaking their idols, then questioning them. Stories about Sun, Moon, Stars, is event taken place for human consumptions, and reasons Allah mentioned the event in Quran is for human guidance. In story of Ibrahim (AS), there is message for believers that one should use their intellect and come to logical answer for their beliefs, even when accepting and worshipping Allah (else, blind faith is same as kufr).

As for Prophet (SAW), one can find numerous stories in any reputable Seerat-ul-Nabi (SAW) mentioning events that started much before Prophet (SAW) birth. Relatives close to Prophet (SAW) not only observed but felt those events. Even Prophet (SAW) name Muhammad (SAW) was given by Allah to Prophet (SAW) through his grandfather, and mother who named Prophet (SAW) Ahmed [both names no one ever had before Prophet (SAW)]. Prophet (SAW) did not get these name at birth, but had these names even before Adam (AS) was created.

Many past prophets (AS) not only knew of Prophet (SAW) by name, but predicted about Prophet (SAW). So, it is obvious that Prophet (SAW) was prophet (AS) before birth, else prediction that Quran also mentions, would have been invalid.

To believe that Prophet (SAW) did not know of his own prophet-hood since birth is ignorance. Just imagine, if anyone believes that Prophet (SAW) did not knew of his Prophet-hood from birth than how ignorance that would be.

Prophets are guide, but prophets (AS) not knowing about themselves and their missions, means they would need guidance to become guide, that is ridiculous as they are not guide of worldly affairs that can be analysed or confirmed, but affairs that cannot be analysed or confirmed, and that means prophet (AS) himself when guided (by angels) would find difficulty to believe, as if prophets were ordinary persons without knowing themselves and their missions beforehand, than they could not even analyse or confirm whatever guidance they would get (from angels), and that means doubt, and with such doubt a guide cannot be a guide (a prophet cannot be a prophet).

But apart of that, considering Prophet (SAW):

1: Not knowing about his (SAW) prophet-hood since birth means Isa (AS) had more knowledge of himself then Prophet (SAW) … something we Muslims do not believe, as we believe that prophet (SAW) knowledge and status amongst Prophets (AS), is highest ever.

2: Incidence of Isa (AS) proves that Prophets knows about himself even at time of birth. Isa (AS) knowing about himself could not be exception, and Allah mentioned the event in Quran for us to know the extend of Prophets knowledge about himself. Isa (AS) knowing about himself could not be exception, because there was no need for it, as Mariam (AS) did not needed to get her innocence confirmed from Isa (AS). There could have been many natural ways for Allah to get that confirmed and if abnormal ways was required, then also, it would have been more appropriate for angels to show up rather a newly born child start speaking.

3: Not knowing about his (SAW) prophet-hood from birth means, possibility of Prophet (SAW) getting involved in sins and malpractices that any ordinary child could get involved, especially when the child is brought up in society full of corruption and sin. To even have such possibility (or having belief of such possibility) means, denying Quran, as even possibility would have made Prophet (SAW) unsuitable for prophet-hood, but that possibility is non-existent as His (SAW) prophet-hood was confirmed years before his birth.

4: Apart of reasons mentioned above, there are many stories connected to birth of Prophet (SAW) that only unbeliever would reject. These stories shows that not only prophet (SAW) but even people close to Prophet (SAW) got affected and all knew from childhood of prophet (SAW) that Prophet (SAW) was Prophet (what believers believed) or special child (what non-believers believed).

What we Muslims believe is that Prophet (SAW) was first creation of Allah and most beloved to Allah of all his creations. Further, Prophet (SAW) and all Prophets never had memory moved to subconscious, what human being goes through once born in this world, as Prophets themselves are not going through test but are guide for those who are going through test (humans whose memory related to pre-birth gets moved to their subconscious).

Actually, our belief is that Prophets do not only know of their prophet-hood from their birth (rather, from time of their creation), but they know the Shariah they would be asked by Allah to introduce to people after their declaring Prophet-hood, such that they do not violate the Shariah from their childhood, what they are expected to teach once they declare their prophet-hood (except what Allah allows them).

Prophet (SAW) has ilm-ul-Gayeb: Ilm-ul-Gayeb is relative term that Shaitan (and his followers) have used as absolute term to misguide many. Any ilm (knowledge) that one have and others could not acquire (by any means) would be ilm for one who has that ilm but ilm-ul-gayeb for those who do not.

Allah has ilm of all things, but creations of Allah can only have ilm from Allah. Amongst creations of Allah, it is our belief that no one has more ilm than Prophet (SAW). Ilm that Prophet (SAW) has is ilm for him (knowledge he obtained from Allah) but ilm-ul-gayeb for us (knowledge that we could not get by any means). Hence, when we Muslims say that Prophet (SAW) has ilm-ul-gayeb, it only means that ilm that prophet (SAW) has is ilm-ul-gayeb for us, or ilm that we can never acquire (by any means). [For Prophet (SAW), those ilm was ilm acquired from Allah … but for us they are ilm-ul-gayeb as we could not acquire them by any means].

Prophet (SAW) and question of hazir-o-nazir: Actually, it is not hazir-o-nazir, but it is being present at various places anytime. It is Our beliefs that Ruh do not die and only nafs dies. Ruh gets separated from Jism (body) and enters world of Ruh (spiritual world = Alam-e-Barzakh = World behind curtain).

Spiritual world has its own dimension, where Ruh is free from constraints of time, space, distance and most material parameters of material world, thus, they can be at any place in material world at anytime (could be simultaneously present at several places in material world at same time).

To understand in simple way, one should think of Angles or Iblees, as they could also be present at any place anytime . For instance, Angel Israel (AS) take away life of a person far apart at same time, and Iblees (Shaitan) could be misguiding a person far apart at same time. Same is true about Ruh, that they can be present at places far apart at same time.

It is surprising that some people may accept (or would not question belief) that Angels or Iblees could be present at places far apart at same time, but for them Ruh of a person cannot.

Presence of Ruh, Angels and Shaitan at different places is different from Allah being Hazir-o-Nazir, because Allah’s realm of presence is beyond time, place, spiritual world, material world, etc (rather our knowledge of Allah and his realm is so limited that we cannot say much other than that, Allah is present at all places at all the time, without knowing how and in what way) but presence of Angels, Iblees and Ruh is confined to limited presence in spiritual and material world and is not present at all places at all time, rather at place they wants to be and are allowed to be (by Allah).

Prophet (SAW) is Nur: Muslims know that Allah made human body out of clay. For Muslims, this body of clay is not what humans are, but it is the Ruh that is reality of humans. Anyhow, unbelievers think humans are their body made of clay, so they make fuss on the subject because of ignorance, but for Muslims, Ruh (or human reality) is not made of clay.

Ruhs have different essence. Ruh of Prophet (SAW) is much superior then any creation of Allah. Even anything attached with prophet (SAW), including his body or blood, due to him (SAW) being superior to any of Allah’s creation, becomes superior to any other creations of Allah, be they Jinn (made of fire) or Angels (made of light).

Allah is everywhere (Allah is Omni-present) is Aqeedah of every Muslim, rather every human born and whose beliefs are not corrupted by indoctrination of Shaitan. Allah is everywhere can be proven from Quran, logic, as well as rationality. Since it can be long discussion, I am leaving that here, but I am willing to discuss and prove what I wrote, if anyone wants to. Anyhow, one ayah from Quran would be enough for anyone who can think.

2:115 (Yusuf Ali): To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

Whithersoever = Whichever place or anywhere

So according to above ayah (2:115): One can turn in any direction one wants to (towards any place … or anywhere), be that direction front, back, right, left, up, down or towards oneself, Allah would be present.

Further, Allah is all-pervading (that adds to Allah being everywhere)

Pervading means:

Encompassing = Surrounding from all sides.
Infusing = Filling
Diffusing = circulating
Infiltrating = Penetrating

All = everything irrespective

and so on …

Allah is present everywhere, but in what way and how is beyond human knowledge or understanding as we do not even have anything that we can similitude Allah.

Allah do not have body or form to say that Allah is present in ‘his body or form’ at any place (be they farash or Arash), neither Allah is made of material things that we can say that he is in or out of material things he created. For understanding we can talk about time or space, that time and space in material world is present everywhere. Though such similitude is not even near to presence of Allah, as their (time and space) presences is only applicable to created material world and Allah is beyond time or space or any of his creations.