This is what some people in Pak1 forum are proposing in a thread on the Hisbah Bill.
I’m not opening this thread to talk about the Hisbah Bill, but rather is it in the Shariat that one can get punished by death BY THE STATE for not praying?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Absolutely not..
Islamic Punishments only apply to the opression and deeds done against Huqooq-ul-Ibaad
Those who talk obsene about such penalties don't hava a clue about Huqooq-ul-Allah vs Huqooq-ul-Ibaad and the very same lot is confused about only ALLAH is the judge phrase.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
what is Huqooq ul Ibaad?
There is a hadith that someone posted up in the thread I'm talking about where they say that Umer or someone said that they've been ordered to kill anyone who doesn't believe in God, offer prayers and zakat etc.
This hadith is being used to say that in the Hisbah Bill, it is okay for the mohtasib (ombudsman) to punish anyone who is not praying. Given the nature of the hadith, I'm guessing these guys think its ok to punish by violence, and that too supported by the State.
This is very disturbing to say the least.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Also to take it one step further, does the State have the right to interfere in private affairs and mandate that everyone go read namaz at the perscribed times? Is there such a provision in the Shariat that there should be some sort of force team that goes so far as to enter homes and accost people on the street to stop what they are doing and to go pray?
Was there ever such a system in place during the Golden Age of Islam, or in the Prophet's time?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
State has the right to call its people towards prayer.. but punishment for not praying is not prescribed anywhere in the Shariah.
However, if someone is a muslim and does not pay zakat (comes under huqooq-ul-Ibaad or Rights of the fellow humans) then we find the sunnah of Abu Bakar:razi: who waged Jihad against Munkareen-e-Zakaat.
Religious matters are not personal if state and the people have the same religion that is Islam. That’s where Amr bil maaroof wa nahi anil munkar really comes in…
In Islam, there is no separation of State and Religion. Islam is not Christianity.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Religious matters are not personal if state and the people have the same religion that is Islam. That's where Amr bil maaroof wa nahi anil munkar really comes in...
So under amr bil maaroof, what exactly is involved? I can understand that not paying zakat is punishable, given the fact that you're able to pay in the first place. But what is the punishment? A fine? or Death?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
I am not knowledgable enough at this point to point out or outline the prescribed punishment.
What I know is that Hadhrat Abu Bakar:razi: called the Munkareen-e-Zakaat to pay the zakaat but when they refused, he went on war with them.
Under Am’r Bil Maaroof exactly the same things come what comes under Nahi Anil Munkar .. that is how the state makes and implements laws against crimes and illegal things…
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Again, work with me Mr. I-use-really-big-words-knowing-this-girl-has-asked-me-not-to-yet-i-wont-respect-her-requests.
What is Nahi Anil Munkar?
What exactly comes under Am’r Bil Maaroof that would violate today’s typical American implications of the law against invasion of privacy?
I am sure things like intervening in someone’s sexual activities is part of it - but I’m not interested in that.
I’m basically interested in things that the Hisbah Bill is implicating.
Like for example:
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praying - you say there is no punishment if one does not pray. But do the state police have the right to pull you out of your home if you decide to skip jumma prayer?
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Does the state have the right to close all businesses during prayer time? And then provide punishment for those who disobey?
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Does the state have the right to tell you how to pray?
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Does the state have the right to punish you if you don’t observe a roza?
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Does the state have the right to force you to observe dresscode? And if so, what dresscode would this be? A burqa? A hijab at minimum? A shalwaar kameez at minimum? No American-style clothes (jeans/shirt)?
Basic things like that.
And furthermore, does a State have the right to implement this punishment system when they are not taking care of more important matters first, like basic human rights, and basic necessities like drinking water, health, shelter, employment, etc?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Who proposed that?
Someone suggested that people who don’t want to pray should just declare that they are not muslims, to avoid being forced by the authorities to pray.
I then pointed that declaring one’s self to no longer be muslim would be to commit apostacy, which some hold to be a crime. So no-one would actually make such a declaration.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Oh Goodness Gracious … Sorry.. I get confused right here…
Amr bil maaroof wa nahee anil Munkar = Call people towards what is Right and forbade them from what is wrong.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
As far as I know, 3 out of 4 fiqhs in Ahl-e-Sunnah agree that anyone who deliberately and wilfully refuses to pray salah, while of a sane mind, is an apostate for denying a direct order of Allah Subhana Tallah, and hence can be killed.
Also,
Imam Abu Hanifa (Peace be upon him), differed and ruled that the person should not be killed and his affairs are in the hands of Allah.
Note: The above is from my memory. I’ll have to dig up the actual book reference if someone is interested.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
no… the preponderant view in Hanbali fiqh is as you’ve described above… however the ruling in the other three schools (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i) falls short of this so long as the individual doesn’t actually deny the obligation to pray salah… these three schools have instead discussed varying degrees of penalties, including but not limited to confinement, imprisonment until the person repents…
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
^ Quite possible. Thanks. So this brings us back to the original question in this thread. So, under dominant Islamic Shariah views, there can be punishment for people who do not pray.
In my mind, the more important question is whether we have an Islamically approved government (in NWFP, Balochistan etc) that can dish out such penalties, or are these kinds of penalties be held in abeyance till a proper Islamic government takes over?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
The problem with that logic is who defines a proper Islamic government?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Ofcourse.
Well, I guess the one bit of progress we made is to actually conclude that there is a reasonable basis to the claim that under almost all Islamic fiqh "an Islamic state" can enforce punishments to people who do not pray salah. The degree of punishment varies (refer back to gupguppy's post).
Now we can start on what constitutes "a proper Islamic government", and who defines it. Starting from the extreme and moving our way forward, I think pretty much all of us agree that the governments of all four Islamic khulafa (Abu Bakar to Ali - Peace be upon them) were "proper Islamic governments". From there on, you can argue your way down. For some the Islamic khilafa in early 20th century also represented "proper Islamic govenrment", but I have my doubts about a monarchial hereditary government deemed "proper Islamic government". Please share your views.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
I'm thinking of it more economically. A government that has little funds to take care of basic necessecities for its own citizens...has the religious right to spend money that should foremost go towards the health and improving basic living standards...and divert those funds to a religious police who enforce virtue?
Okay, so a person who denies that they have an obligation to pray is one thing.
Most people don't fall into this category. Most people fall into the category of laziness - they're too lazy to pray, or they get preoccupied in doing something that they forget its namaz time.
Now, coming across someone who is outright saying "hey we don't have to pray - this 5 times namaz stuff is utter garbage" is one thing.
But to catch the people who don't pray out of laziness or are missing some namazein while performing some others, does the State have the RIGHT to have a SET OF POLICE to monitor these situations?
The answer is no. So I don't see where Faisal's findings come into play. Would that only apply to people who are most likely caught saying in public that one should not pray? (Very unlikely, IMHO).
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
Actually these are not my findings at all. Anyone who denies the obligation to pray is to be killed under all four schools of thought. That is a given. Anyone who does not pray salah out of so-called laziness is equally likely to be killed under the Hanbali fiqh. Under the other three fiqhs, there are varying degrees of punishments for those who do not offer their prayers out of laziness or whatever. Gupguppy’s post that mentioned all this is as follows:
So the varying degrees of punishment are to be administered by the “Islamic state”.
Now, carry on.
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
^ And in history was there ever a force that investigated who was praying and who wasn't? And how was it done?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
By the same token, what right does the state or a rabid mullah has to declare someone a Muslim or a non-Muslim?
Re: Death Penalty for Not Praying?
whoever declares a prophet after Muhammad:saw: is understood as Kafir and the reason is from the Sunnah of Abu Bakr:razi: