Death penalty for converts?

[quote]
Originally posted by Musalman:
** Brother, can you kindly shed light on what is the basis of your conclusion that the application is only confined to the people towards whom the Prophet (PBUH) had been directly assigned?
**
[/quote]

Brother stunned answered your question by referring you to the sources i.e. to the website. Yet, for some reason, you did not provide any feedback. He asked if you had read it. You said you had. Yet you still had no comment on it. You kept insisting that your side of the argument is the only valid side. If you had read the relevant article properly you would have seen that it had said:

"I do acknowledge the possiblity that the opinion of the majority of the Muslim scholars is correct, but I request all those who read my reply to please point out the error in my reasoning that follows, rather than informing me that I have presented an opinion that is different from the majority of the Muslim scholars."

You obviously have not read it properly. You only used it to provide sources for that hadith which I had provided earlier - along with those exact sources. Who are you trying to kid? All that I can say about your statements cited above is that you have very successfully criticized your own interpretation of this particular issue of the punishment of apostasy. However, a more honest and a more academic approach of criticizing Islam would rather have been to first understand the implications arising from the analysis of the article cited and then to criticize those implications.

Do you consider what you have done as being intellectually honest?

For your convenience the article is given below:

In a nutshell, I do not ascribe to the opinion that the punishment for apostasy is death. As I shall explain in the following paragraphs, in my opinion, the Shari`ah has not fixed any punishment for apostasy. I must also point out here that there is, more or less, a consensus among the scholars that an apostate should be killed. But I think that the basis of this opinion of the Muslim scholars is questionable. I do acknowledge the possiblity that the opinion of the majority of the Muslim scholars is correct, but I request all those who read my reply to please point out the error in my reasoning that follows, rather than informing me that I have presented an opinion that is different from the majority of the Muslim scholars. I present my opinion with the necessary details in the following paragraphs:

As you should be aware of the fact that the basis of the opinion regarding the death penalty of an apostate is not any verse of the Qur’an, but a saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), as reported by Bukhari, in his "Kita’b al-Jiha’d wal-Siyar", "Kita’b istitabah al-murtaddi’n" and "Kita’b al-ai`tisa’m bil-Kita’b wal-Sunnah", in which the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:

"Whoever changes his Religion, kill him".

Obviously, if the matter had ended here, I would have had no objection in submitting that the Prophet (pbuh) has fixed the punishment for ALL apostates to be death.

But the matter does not end here. We know that the Qur’an has referred to the issue of apostasy at more than one place (for example see Al-Baqarah 2: 217, Al-Baqarah 2: 108, A’l Imra’n 3: 90, Al-Nisa’ 4: 137 and Al-Nahl 16: 106). But at none of these places does the Qur’an mention the punishment of death for such people who change their religion. The Qur’an does mention that such people shall face a terrible punishment in the hereafter but no worldly punishment is mentioned at any of these instances in the Qur’an. This situation obviously raises a question mark in the mind of the reader that if Allah had wanted to give the punishment of an apostate a permanent position in the Shari`ah, the punishment should have been mentioned, at least at one of the above mentioned places. If the Qur’an had kept completely silent about the apostate, the matter would have been different. But the strange thing is that the Qur’an mentions apostasy, and still does not mention the punishment (if any) it wants the apostate to be subjected to.

Moreover, the Qur’an clearly mentions in Al-Baqarah 2: 256 that:

"There is absolutely no compulsion in religion"

While if the referred directive (regarding the apostate) ascribed to Prophet (pbuh) is taken to be general and not specific for a particular people, the Qur’anic statement: "There is absolutely no compulsion in religion" would lose all its meaning. If a person is to be killed in case he converts to another religion, it would imply that the statement of the Qur’an only means that a person cannot be forced to accept Islam, but he CAN be forced to remain a Muslim throughout his life. It is quite obvious that such is not the case.

Furthermore, the Qur’an has strictly disallowed the imposition of the death penalty except in two specific cases. One of them is where the person is guilty of murdering another person and the other is where a person is guilty of creating unrest in the country (fasa’d fil-ardh) like being invloved in activities that create unrest in a society, for example activities like terrorism etc. The Qur’an says:

"Whoever kills a person without his being guilty of murder or of creating unrest in the land, is as though he kills the whole of mankind. (Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)

Obviously, apostasy can neither be termed as "murder" nor "creating unrest in the land".

Thus, in view of the above facts, we are left with one option only. We can only say that either the saying has been wrongly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), as it is clearly contradictory to the Qur’an and the Prophet could not have said anything contradictory to the Qur’an, or that the saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) relates not to all apostates but to a particular and specific people.

If we look at the Qur’an again, this time with a slightly different perspective, we see that although the Qur’an clearly mentions that no one can be forced into Islam (nor forcably kept a Muslim), it makes the Bani Ismai’l (the Quraish) an exception.

The Qur’an tells us that Mohammad (pbuh) was not only a Prophet (Nabi) but a Messenger (Rasu’l) of Allah. The Qur’an tells us that when Allah sends His messenger in a people, these people are not allowed to live on Allah’s earth if they reject the messenger. It tells us that these people are given time in which to make up their minds and to present all their objections against the messenger (Rasu’l). It tells us that when the All-knowing Allah decides that these people have been given adequate time and that they are now absolutely clear of the truthfulness of the messenger and thus are not left with any excuse for their rejection, but still are persistent in their rejection then Allah directs His messenger to migrate from the area and then He destroys all those who have rejected His messenger. The Qur’an refers to the peoples (nations) of the messengers of old – Nuh, Hud, Lut, Sho`aib, Salaih, Musa’ (pbut) – and narrates the result of their rejection. It addresses the people of Mohammad (pbuh) – the Bani Ismai’l – and tells them that if they do not accept the message of Allah’s messenger (Mohammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them (See Surah Al-Qamar, the whole surah especiall verse 43 - 45).

In short, the Qur’an says that it is the unalterable law of Allah that when He sends His messenger in a people, these particular people are left with no option but to accept His message or to face the punishment of death and sometimes complete annihilation.

The Qur’an goes further to tell us how this punishment was implemented on the Bani-Ismai’l. It tells us that although the previous nations of the messengers of Allah were annihilated, because of their rejection, through (apparently) natural calamities, the believers of Mohammad (pbuh), because Allah has given them rule in a land (Medinah), shall fight the rejectors and through these believers shall Allah implement His punishment (Al-Taubah 9: 14 - 16). It directs them that the Mushriki’n (people of Bani Ismai’l) should be killed, without any exception. They should only be allowed to live if they accept Islam (Al-Taubah 9: 5). On the other hand, it also directs them that the Jews and the Christians (because they were not from Bani Ismai’l), contrary to the Bani Ismai’l, may be allowed to live, even if they do not enter the folds of Islam, but accept to live under the Muslim rule and agree to pay their taxes (Al-Taubah 9: 29).

Thus, the Prophet (pbuh) sent his messenger who declared at the time of Hajj that no one from Bani Ismai’l shall be allowed to live after the prohibited months, if he does not accept Islam. As a result of this declaration, most of the people of Bani Ismai’l accepted Islam and thus the punishment of Allah was avoided.

In my opinion, the directive ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) regarding the apostates is only with reference to the people of Bani Ismai’l. If seen in this perspective, the saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) actually would mean that these people (Bani Ismai’l) who were to be punished, according to the law of Allah, had they not accepted Islam, would face the same punishment, if at any time during their lives they leave the folds of Islam.

Conclusion

In view of the above explanation, it is my opinion that the saying ascribed to the Prophet with regard to apostates, although general in its words applies specifically to the people of Bani Ismai’l – the direct addressees and the very nation of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh).

Now I would kindly request you to criticise the reasoning in the article.


They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited January 09, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**
By killing a person for choosing some other religion you are treating him like prisoner. You are scared that the prisoner will run away without the threat of death hanging on his/her head.

P.S. Islam is not a eastern religion. I (eastner) fail to understand why you would kill people for leaving Islam, to me it is very barbaric.**
[/quote]

Saying that a particular punishment is too barbaric or otherwise, is basically giving a value judgment about that punishment. If that punishment is fixed by Allah or any of His prophets, it is the belief of all Muslims that then that punishment, whether severe or soft, serves justice.

I would kindly ask of you that before passing judgements on something that you have very little knowledge about, please look at the sources given in the beginning of this thread. Brother "Stunned" (not "shocked" as you have said) has already referred you to the correct ruling. Apostasy is not punishable by death. If you wish to carry on with your own personal agenda by repeatedly making presumptious comments while ignoring the "nitty gritty" of the matter I would suggest that you leave. Your other option is to be a bit more objective like many other non-Muslims have been.


They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited January 09, 2001).]

For people like Astrofan who seem to have shown a genuine interest in this issue, as opposed to using it to pursue their own agenda, here is another ruling from an Islamic Q&A site. I can’t vouch for it’s authenticity, but the subject is dealt with, although the conclusion seems to be different from Partypooper’s source;

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http://216.205.122.233/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=696&misc=&offset=0&sort=d

Question:

I am currently in a philosophy of religion class and my teacher is an atheist. He claims that under an Islamic state if a born Muslim converts to another religion he is killed. Please tell me if this is true.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

The punishment for apostasy (riddah) is well-known in Islaamic Sharee’ah. The one who leaves Islaam will be asked to repent by the Sharee’ah judge in an Islaamic country; if he does not repent and come back to the true religion, he will be killed as a kaafir and apostate, because of the command of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3017).

It is well-known in Sharee’ah that the punishments (hudood) are not carried out on minors, because they have not yet reached the age of responsibility; but in the case of those who have reached the age of responsibility, the punishment (hadd) applies, without a doubt.

The person who knows the truth and believes in it, then turns his back on it, does not deserve to live. The punishment for apostasy is prescribed for the protection of the religion and as a deterrent to anyone who is thinking of leaving Islaam. There is no doubt that such a serious crime must be met with an equally weighty punishment. If the kuffaar do not give people the freedom to cross a red light, how can we give freedom to people to leave Islaam and disbelieve in Allaah when they want to?

It seems that the intention of the teacher mentioned in the question was to shock the students with news of this ruling, in order to mislead them from the way of Allaah. You must respond and explain to him and the other students as much as you can.
May Allaah make you and us bearers of His Message and defenders of His Sharee’ah.
Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

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http://216.205.122.233/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=811&misc=&offset=0&sort=d

Question:

**Alslamualik

This question has bees asked several time from non-Muslims and I want to find an answer: Why When the Muslim convert to another religion(Murtad) he/she should be killed?**

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Your question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).

(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.

(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.

(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.

(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?

(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as “personal freedom,” so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad .

Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited January 09, 2001).]

Well, my only comment on the stuff you post, Xtreme, is that the author seems to equate crimes that physically hurt people with the crime of apostasy.

crossing a red light, hitting a child, treason - these are actions that lead to physical harm.

Apostasy, by itself, does not lead to harm.
My only question is this - do you tell converts that when they get in, they can't get out? If not, that breaks down my "agreeing by a society's rule" argument, and those apostates should be allowed to leave in peace. A second question - are Muslims allowed to implement this piece of shariah in a non-Muslim state? If say, in the U.K., apostasy is not illegal, but small patches of Muslim society in the U.K. say it is - and they do go out and kill an apostate - is this seen as the right thing to do?


As for Partypooper - the statement "There is absolutely no compulsion in religion" does not actually say that Muslims are not supposed to force others to follow Islam - it can be just as easily taken to say that a person's heart cannot be truly compelled by the words of a believer. Taken in the latter context, this verse has no bearing on religious tolerance and cannot be used to support the conclusions of The Learner.

Pristine posted a link to a site that had explanations of the various chapters where this latter context is supported. I forget exactly what it is.

Yay! Let's argue about something else now!
Well I'm no arabic scholar but I have read at least a 3rd of the Quran translated so far. Whenever I do read it I do not do it in search of answers or to confirm anything. I wait until I'm in the clearest state of mind when I will not be likely to make my own conclusions based on my own thoughts. I read only to learn what is in front of me.

I don't understand how all these arguements start in the first place. So far everything I've read has made perfect sense and was written very directly without even the slightest room for.. 'misunderstandings'.

In regards to this topic I've read that all people will be judged according to their actions, those who do good shall be rewarded( even if they do not know the truth ) and most importantly there is no forcing of religion on to anyone.

I may be stupid and you can damn me to hell all you like but for some reason I see no way you could possibly get any more straight forward then that.

So far I have not found Islam to be complicated at all. The Quran may have never changed but the people following can't seem to agree on anything. So who's at fault?

[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
**As for Partypooper - the statement "There is absolutely no compulsion in religion" does not actually say that Muslims are not supposed to force others to follow Islam - it can be just as easily taken to say that a person's heart cannot be truly compelled by the words of a believer. Taken in the latter context, this verse has no bearing on religious tolerance and cannot be used to support the conclusions of The Learner.

**
[/quote]

The complete verse reads... there is absolutely no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out from error. Thus, whoever rejects Evil and believes in God hath graspec the strong hold.

How can the above verse mean what astrosfan has said...

Quite clear...

well, according to this:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau109.html#S109

Chapter 109, “The Unbelievers” is a testament to the disgust a Muslim has for a non-Muslim. The key paragraph goes like:

Given this pent up disgust with the kufir, it is not hard to believe that the Shariah can say that apostasy leads to punishment by death.

Stunned - nothing in your post possibly contradicts my second interpretation - if it is so clear that Truth stand out from error, yet someone had decided to reject truth, your sura does not specifically say to leave him peacefully.

“there is no compulsion in religion.” The more I read it, the more it says to me - “the human heart cannot be compelled/forced in matters of religion, because the Truth is so clear to see”. How do you intrepret “religious tolerance and acceptance” out of that?

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited January 10, 2001).]

I think the point is that for an individual to privately believe or not believe is up to him or her. The punishment is only applicable when it becomes a public attack on the faith a'la Rushdie.

As for the 'disgust' that a muslim has for kafirs, that is in the opinion of that commentator. The passage you quoted was not from the Quran itself. In fact, the only disgust I have seen in this thread has been expressed by Rani and NYAhmadi.


Islam is a TRUE religion and TRUE and ONLY way to GOD, if one person comes into Islam and than leaves it, it is like he knows the TRUTH but he will lie and go for false thing on purpose.


The only True religion is humanity and respecting Human values. To live and let other live peacefully.

Islam,christanity,Hiduism every religion were come in place in different times and in different regions where the people had differnt problems, different traditions. So the ways were every times different to perform them. But they all are talking from the same God. If you are not sure about it please ask Allah and he will tell you the TRUE TRUTH.

And if you ask me I will say every religion are showing you ways to find the TRUE TRUTH.
So if you see the ways that one religion leads you, are not enough for you to find the TRUE TRUTH then try other ways. And if you already found it please check once more wheather it's TRUELY the TRUE TRUTH.

Seems like we are stuck in circular arguments... lets break stop the merry go round...

the following is something that we all agree upon

The Quran allows person to be sentenced to death only in two cases, which are: a) when he is guilty of murder and b) whn he is guilty of creating unrest in the land.

brothers and sisters who agree upon the above, please give opinion on following:

1- Does conversion frm one to the other religion amount to unrest in the land?
2- Does the preaching of any religion amount to unrest in the land?

if the answer to these questions is no, then according to the quran there is no punishment for apostasy.

if the answer is yes, then all convrsions, from or to islam should be considered unrest in the land and so should all efforts of preaching.

at least, we should not be a victim of double standards... don't you agree?

by the way... with the above post, i became a senior member...

hehehe... is this a sign?

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Asslamu Alikum,

It is very clear that during Prophrt Muhammad's (PBUH) lifetime, and the lifetimes of the next 4 "Rightly Guided Caliphs," a number of Muslims left the faith of Islam. The punishment for leaving Islam was death. A close examination of the Quran and Hadeeth will show that indeed, the punishment for leaving Islam was execution.

To begin with, I agree that Quran does not come out and explicitly state that apostates should be executed. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy and they shed some light on the punishment for apostates.

Let's start with the Quran.

Surah Al-Tauba:

Verse 73: “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fire.”
Verse 74: “They swear by God that they said nothing. Yet they uttered the word of unbelief and renounced Islam after embracing it. They sought to do what they could not attain. Yet they had no reason to be spiteful except perhaps because God and His apostle had enriched them through His bounty. If they repent, it will indeed be better for them, but if they give no heed, God will sternly punish them, both in this world and in the world to come. They shall have none on this earth to protect or help them.”

We see here that ALLAH (SWT) urges Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to "make war" on the people who have left Islam. It also states that "ALLAH (SWT) will punish them in this world, and in the world to come."

What exactly Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was to do to the people in his "making war" on them is not explicitly stated, but it can be surmised that they will be physically punished, if not outright killed. Further ALLAH (SWT) HU’s self is also going to punish those who leave Islam. What is HU’s punishment? Whatever it is, is will be unpleasant.

There are several places Quran mention apostasy, but no mention of an earthly punishment is made.

It is from the Hadeeth that we can clearly draw our understanding and information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadeeth we find no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes are from “Sahih Bukahari”

**Quote #1 Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:

Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Quote #2 Volume 9, Book 83, Number 37:

Narrated Abu Qilaba:
Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....

Quote #3 Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated ‘Ikrima:
"Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Quote #4 Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:

Narrated Abu Musa:
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"**

Comments Hadeeth Quote #3: Apparently Hazrat Ali (RA) did not subscribe to the interpretation presented by “The Learner” and I am confident that Hazrat Ali (RA) being the cousin, companion of Prophet (PBUH) and one of the Rightly Guided Khalifa understood Islamic Law better then any of the contemporary Students and / or Scholars of Islam.

Comments Hadeeth Quote #4: The Prophet (PBUH) appointed and sent Abu Musa as governor of Yemen. Then later he sent Muadh ibn Jabal as his assistant. It should be noted that this incident took place during the blessed life of the Prophet (PBUH). At that time Abu Musa represented the Prophet (PBUH) as governor and Muadh as vice-governor. If their action had not been based on the decision of ALLAH (SWT) and His Messenger (PBUH), surely the Prophet (PBUH) would have objected.

Further more before we analyze “The Learner’s” comments on compulsion it is important to understand that according to Islam, every child is born Muslim with the built-in ability to know and believe in his Creator, he has the cognition that has been placed by ALLAH (SWT) in his nature (fitra). ALLAH (SWT) describes the human soul in a very beautiful way. After swearing by the most majestic signs of HU’s creation, ALLAH (SWT) says:

Surah Ash-Shams Verses 1-10
“….[7] By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; [8] And its inspiration as to its wrong and its right;-
[9] Truly he succeeds that purifies it, [10] And he fails that corrupts it!

ALLAH (SWT) has made our souls such that we are able to distinguish what is good and what is evil. But for a human soul to function on its fitra, there is a condition-it must be kept pure, it must be immunized against spiritual corruption.

Besides this fitra, ALLAH (SWT) has also provided us with various means to know HU and believe in HU; HU sent prophets and messengers (PBUT), HU sent books, and above all HU created thousands of signs in nature which remind us of HU. ALLAH (SWT) says:

Surah Fussilat Verse 53

“Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?”

** Having accepted that from the Islamic point of view, faith in ALLAH (SWT) is ingrained in human nature, and that it is only the parents and the society that corrupt the soul and divert it from the Right Path, the question comes: Can Islam be imposed forcefully on non-Muslims? The Quran clearly says that, “Let there be no compulsion in religion:” (2:256) What this verse actually means is that: "There is no compulsion in (accepting) the Deen of Islam." Why? The verse continues, “Truth stands out clear from Error:” So Muslims can always show the difference between the right and the wrong paths, but not force the non-Muslims to accept Islam.

So, clearly what was said above was about accepting Islam, coming into the fold of Islam. It is very clear and unambiguous that no one can be forcefully brought into the fold of Islam; Islam cannot be imposed on any person or society. This was all about a person who is outside the fold of Islam.**

Now then lets move to the next step. If a person is raised in a society, which protects his soul from the impurities of kufr, and shirk, or if a person is shown the Right Path and accepts it willingly - can such a person reject the Islamic faith? Is he allowed to apostate (become murtad)? Can he declare that he does not believe in ALLAH (SWT), Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the Day of Judgement?

Once a person enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to ALLAH (SWT) totally and completely. ALLAH (SWT) says “O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly (2:208), Notice the word “Kaffatan” in the sense of "all" and "completely". A believer surrenders the right of making decisions to ALLAH (SWT) and Messenger (PBUH): ALLAH (SWT) says “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: …” (33:36)

Now even the question of apostasy for a Muslim, becomes a Shari / religious issue, even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam. And Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate. After coming into the fold of Islam, rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam, then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam, desert your own fitra!

On the issue of openly rejecting Islam, Islam cannot just stand aside and see its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of ALLAH (SWT)" to the status of “non-believers”

Further more why does Islam not allow apostacy? Apostacy in Islam is equal to treason.

The Western world limits treason to political and military terms. In the USA, treason consists "only in levying war against Americans, and in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." However, sometimes even the Western world stretches the concept of political treason to include things, which are not related to politics or military matters. . For example, according to Encyclopedia Britannica in England, it is also treason to violate the monarch's consort, eldest unmarried daughter, or heir's wife. Then, even now, "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason.

Why has England included such non-political and non-military matters in treason? Because the Royal family and the purity of its bloodline is one of the most significant part of the British society and culture. In Islam, the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic order of sacredness, ALLAH (SWT), then the Prophet (PBUH) and then the Quran occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason-in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostacy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna.
And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for apostacy. It must be emphasized that apostasy, which we are discussing here, involves open rejection, without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply.

Final Analysis

It is clear that:

**
“Whoever changes his Religion, kill him” (Bukahari)
Applies to all apostates as is evident from several other Hadeeth quoted above.

“There is absolutely no compulsion in religion” (2: 256)
This verse, however, do not apply to the Muslim. A Muslim is not allowed to revert, as explained in the above commentary.

“Whoever kills a person without his being guilty of murder or of creating unrest in the land, is as though he kills the whole of mankind.” (5: 32)

Lets read the whole Verse shell we:

5:32 "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

It will point to us that it was ordained for the “Children of Israel” and therefore should not be taken as a sole resource for denying the Death Penalty to an Apostate. Even then as a general principal open apostasy is equal to evil and treason therefore bound to lead to unrest in the land. Therefore the general Hadeeth and Quran are in complete harmony as you see.

The expositions of the Prophet, the Rightly-Guided Caliphs (Khulafa'-i Rashidun), the great Companions (Sahaba) of the Prophet, their Followers (Tabiun), the leaders among the mujtahids and, following them, the scholars of the shariah of every century are available on record. All these collectively will assure us that from the time of the Prophet (PBUH) to the present day one injunction only has been continuously and uninterruptedly operative and that no room whatever remains to suggest that perhaps the punishment of the apostate is not execution.
**

May ALLAH (SWT) forgive me for any mistakes that I may have made and may ALLAH (SWT) help me in understanding the truth. Ameen.

Edit revision history "#1" since last post:

  1. Removed Hadeeth Quote #4.
  2. Re-numbered Hadeeth quotes.
  3. Comments Hadeeth Quote #2 changed to comments Hadeeth Quote #3.
  4. Comments Hadeeth Quote #5 changed to comments Hadeeth Quote #4.
  5. Added "Edit revision history".

[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 11, 2001).]

Wow, Musalman and I agree on the interpretation (more or less).

A first, I think.

Musalman, do you imply that the verse is not meant for Muslims?

Please give a clear and straight answer... I shall then quote all those who hold this verse to be applicabel to Muslims.

Brother Musalman,
I checked the other link but there is no additional information there.As for the meaning of this hadith…well it is clear to anyone reading it.Hazrat Ali(r.a.) is saying that in the last days there will be people who will say the best words and yet have no faith.A clear sign of a hypocrite.This is obviously reffereing to people who will appear to be good people(say the right things)but they will have no faith in their hearts and it will reflect in their actions.
Further saying that ‘their religion will go out of them…’ clearly means that these people will have no interest in religion.i.e.religion will be irrelevant to them in their lives.Surely we see such people around us today.
And surely this can not stretched in any possible manner to apply on converts.
A careful reading of the hadith reveals also that it is a prediction about later times…whereas murtadeen existed in very early times aswell…a punishment for them will not be ascribed in such haphazard manner.But this is jsut an aside..the real meaning of the hadith is as I explained above.

Musalman;

You posted:

Narrated ‘Ikrima:

"Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Is burning someone Islamic ? No, yet this fabricated hadith you mention suggests that Imam Ali (as) burnt agroup of atheists ?

Dou actually believe this or expect others to ?

Be conscious of the gargabe you post !

Brother Musalman,
The quote# 2 in your post seems to quote a saying attributed to Hazrat Umer bin abdulaziz,but your comment mentions Hazrat Ali(r.a.).

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited January 11, 2001).]

Brother Ahmed

Hadeeth Quote #4 Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64: This was quoted in another thread by brother Pristine, related to the same topic, where he advocated the death penalty for apostasy. I had also read some reference material where it is used as the evidence for the same. Since doubts have arisen in light of your reply, I will remove it from my commentary.

Comments Hadeeth Quote #2:I am very grateful to you for point out the error to me. In-fact those comments are NOT related to Hadeeth Quote#2 but to Hadeeth Quote #3 narrated ‘Ikrima where Hazrat Ali (RA) killed the apostates. I apologize for the typographical error.

Also, brother please refer to edit revision history #1 at the end of the commentary.

Brother stunned

The said verse is in Quran so how can I imply that it is not meant for Muslims. My comments on this verse are very clear that it should not be taken as a sole resource for denying the Death Penalty to an Apostate by undermining all the reference found in the Hadeeth.

Brother a1shah

Bukahari,
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated ‘Ikrima:
"Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

The above Hadeeth can be found in Bukahari, the book of Hadeeth, which is considered as book of authentic Hadeeth by majority opinion. Unless it is proven beyond doubt and a consensus is found among majority of the scholars of Islam that the Hadeeth is fabricated I have no reason to believe that the said Hadeeth is fabricated.