[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
Who care what Bakhari said.
[/quote]
Around 1.2 Billion inhabitants of planet "Earth", they are called MUSLIMS.
By the way again, here are your choices:
1- the Quran is wrong
2- Ali is wrong
3- the saying is wronly attributed to Ali, which means Bukhary made a mistake
I wonder if anybody will be willing to pick choice no. 3... How can Ali be wrong? so 2 is out as well, ... so are we only left with no. 1 only
show of hands please
Do they not ponder over the Quran, had it been from anyone other than God, they would have found a number of inconsistencies in it...
*Brother Stunned *
'authentic' or 'error free'?
I believe “Sahih Bukhari” to be authentic meaning conforming to fact and therefore worthy of trust, reliance.
If you believe it is 'error-free' then on what basis?
You have to define the term “error-free”. If the book is said to be authentic then what is written in it are the sayings of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and sayings by the Prophet (PBUH) are error free.
Do you believe 'Sahih Bukhary' enjoys the same characteristics, which the Quran has mentioned as solely its own?
Quran is the supreme word of ALLAH (SWT) therefore it has no alternative. I consider “Sahih Bukhary” as a resource book to refer to the Hadeeth of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), because Islam = Quran + Sunnah (Tradition and Sayings of Prophet (PBUH)
I would still request you to check out the URL I have given above...
I have read it in full.
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 09, 2001).]
Rani,
your views and mpai's are very interesting but sometimes other people's religions need to be looked at a little more carefully.
Many westerners fail to understand why sikhs wear an orange bandage round their heads when there is no physical need for it.
Or they might wonder why the hindu considers a cow a higher being than the low caste shudra. Strange mysteries all of them, but always there is an explanation for a genuine seeker.
alright,
So exactly what is the explanation for the killing of apostates? Is it because they create unrest?
I can actually see that making sense, thought I really, really don't agree with it. To each is own.
The Hadeeth quoted by Hazrat Ali are not his words, they are the words of Prophet (PBUH) and therefore cannot be wrong.
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 09, 2001).]
The Bukhari Hadith,narrated by Hazrat Ali (r.a.) posted by Musalman has no bearing on the issue being discussed here i.e. the punishment of converts.
Therefore stunned and Musalman,please drop the unnecessary discussion on Bukhari and stick to the issue.
[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
**alright,
So exactly what is the explanation for the killing of apostates? Is it because they create unrest?
I can actually see that making sense, thought I really, really don't agree with it. To each is own.**
[/quote]
How do you see it making sense?
Many westerners fail to understand why sikhs wear an orange bandage round their heads when there is no physical need for it..
Nobody will kill you if you don't it absolutely left on the individual to wear it or not wear it. Lot of Arabs and almost all the Indian use to wear Pag (you can call it whatever you want) all the Mughal King wore the bandage. You are mixing up voluntary gesture with one in which individual has choice with death sentence for leaving a religion in which individual is denied all his/her basic rights. Nobody will kill me or threaten me in any way if I leave Sikhism. Being a Sikh is my choice. Nobody has killed or said anything to Kushwant Singh for annoucing to the whole world that he is atheist.
Or they might wonder why the hindu considers a cow a higher being than the low caste shudra. Strange mysteries all of them, but always there is an explanation for a genuine seeker.
We are not talking about mysteries or what one considers scared, we are talking about individual right to choose or not to choose according to his needs.
BTW, it is against the law in India to treat anybody differently because of their caste.
By killing a person for choosing some other religion you are treating him like prisoner. You are scared that the prisoner will run away without the threat of death hanging on his/her head.
P.S. Islam is not a eastern religion. I (eastner) fail to understand why you would kill people for leaving Islam, to me it is very barbaric.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
*The Bukhari Hadith,narrated by Hazrat Ali (r.a.) posted by Musalman has no bearing on the issue being discussed here i.e. the punishment of converts.
*
[/quote]
Actually it does effect the issue on hand brother. The Hadeeth “Whoever changes his Religion, kill him.” as reported by Bukhari, in his "Kita’b al-Jiha’d wal-Siyar", "Kita’b istitabah al-murtaddi’n" and "Kita’b al-ai`tisa’m bil-Kita’b wal-Sunnah", is being interpreted as an application which is only confined to the people towards whom the Prophet (PBUH) had been directly assigned. VS the other Hadeeth is being made the basis for the application to be applicable for all times.
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 09, 2001).]
Rani:
[quote]
Nobody will kill me or threaten me in any way if I leave Sikhism. Being a Sikh is my choice.
[/quote]
That is why sikh religion is different from Islam. Many religions are different in some way or other.
[quote]
P.S. Islam is not a eastern religion. I (eastner) fail to understand why you would kill people for leaving Islam, to me it is very barbaric.
[/quote]
Thank you for your opinion. Many people have different opinions also. Some fail to understand why sikhs wear a comb in their hair when they clearly cannot comb it as it is wrapped in a turban.
Other people do not understand why sikhs consider wearing a kaccha (underpants) as part of their religion. In some people's 'opinion' it is plainly ludicrous to make a pair of underpants a part of religious clothing.
[quote]
Originally posted by Musalman:
** How do you see it making sense?
**
[/quote]
You know - I don't quite know.
It goes something like this - we accept there are certain actions for which punishment by death. One soldier killing an enemy soldier is one example. When a judge sentences a mass murderer who shows no remorse is another example. Most people accept death as a punishment for extreme crimes. Then, there are certain crimes for which death as a punishment seems either immoral or overkill. For example, killing a man because he steals a single loaf of bread to feed a starving child.
A society decides, as a whole, what crimes deserve what punishment. Some societies declare sodomy to be illegal, some don't. The moral high ground is not what is important here - it's the rules that the majority of the people agree to live under. If a society, as a whole, decides that apostasy is punishable by death, then a person living in such a society should know that rule before agreeing to live in such a society.
I, myself, do not consider any aspect of free will to be punishable, so I detest punishing an apostate. But I, myself, do not define the rules of a society.
Under this line of argument, a person who disagrees with a rule in a society should be allowed to leave that society. If a person wished to convert out of Islam, he should be able to leave the country/state/society to do as he pleases.
After all, there actually may be a group of people out there who think defense is not justification for killing an enemy soldier.
Simple Question:
What would you do when someone knows the TRUTH but tells you lies on purpose?
Islam is a TRUE religion and TRUE and ONLY way to GOD, if one person comes into Islam and than leaves it, it is like he knows the TRUTH but he will lie and go for false thing on purpose.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
Musalman the 2nd hadith says nothing about converts and therefore is not relevant.Simple as that.
I think what Xtreme is saying is that he does not know why Islam prescribes death for converts. No surprise there. Leave it to Xtreme for knowing nothing about the religion he follows.
Xtreme, if you don’t have an explanation to this inquiry, why don’t you just say so instead of brining in the practices of the Sikh religion. People will understand that you have nothing to say about Death of converts. I think death penalty for those who leave their religion in not only barbaric and a low act, it can be quite painful for those who are killed.
Brother, what is the actual meaning of that hadeeth then, because it has been quoted in favor of killing an apostate in another thread. Check it out at the following link:
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/001537.html
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited January 09, 2001).]
NYAhmadi,
This seems to be a thread where people are passing a lot of opinions. I don't see why my opinions about other people's opinions are causing a problem.
Xtreme,
Nobody will kill anybody for not wearing Kucha ,comb or leaving the religion. I agree with NYA killing somebody for leaving a religion is barabaric and low act. I hope Mullah's are telling the newly converts that they will be killed if they ever change their mind.
I totaly disagree with the comment that convert from islam should be killed it is unislamic i dont care how many times it is discussed. People with little knowledge can cause the most damage. Allah will take care of the convert. Donot try to change islam please people follow the true islam and if you donot know any thing ask a true aliam not mullas. There is a difference between a Alim and a regular Mulla.
Rani,
I understood the first time that you consider it a barbaric and low act. The third repetition wasn't necessary. Your opinion, however much you might value it yourself, has no relevance to the ruling on this issue.