Death Of Girls Illustrates Decay of Secularism

Death of Two Girls Illustrates Decay of Capitalism

Police searching for missing girls Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman found two bodies near Mildenhall in Suffolk that are likely to be identified as their bodies. The girls from Soham had been missing since Sunday 4th August.

School caretaker, Ian Huntley, 28, and his girlfriend Maxine Carr, 25, were arrested in the early hours of Saturday 17th August on suspicion of murdering Holly and Jessica. Mr Huntley is also being held on suspicion of abducting both girls.

The deaths of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman are not an isolated incident - attacks on children have become a common feature of Capitalist society. Surrey police are yet to find 14-year-old Amanda Dowler, who vanished without trace in March. Essex police have also never found Danielle Jones, 15, who disappeared 14 months ago. Going further back, Mark Tildesley, a seven-year-old schoolboy abducted from a fairground in 1984, was never discovered. Genette Tate, 13, a newspaper delivery girl, disappeared in Devon in 1978 and has never been found.

The National Probation Service released the national figure of potentially dangerous sex offenders as 47,000. According to Children’s charity NCH in the past two years at least 12 men have been jailed in England and Wales for sexually assaulting children they first met in chat rooms.

An international paedophile ring that included parents who sexually abused their own children and distributed images of children as young as 2 years old over the Internet was announced recently by the U.S. Customs Service. The ring abused and exploited at least 45 children, 37 of whom are citizens and residents of the United States, officials said. The ages of the 37 children range from 2 to 14. Nine of the people were Americans and the other six were Europeans. The US, Department of Justice estimates 58,200 children were abducted by people unknown to them in 1999. A Huddersfield University survey published this weekend claims that one in five children has been the subject of unwanted sexual advances outside the home in the UK.

This stark reality is an indictment of Capitalism. Western Capitalist societies promote the cocktail of individualism, freedom and the purpose of living as maximising one’s pleasure that create perverted personalities such as paedophiles and child killers. In addition to breeding the notions of individual freedom and expediency these societies continuously agitate the sexual inclinations of people. Sex is promoted everywhere, from billboards, advertising commercials, magazines, songs and television programmes. Capitalist companies and elites use the promotion of sex through these means with no regard given to the moral implications. It is no wonder that various forms of perversion are rampant within the West.

The Islamic ideology rejects the notions of individualism and freedom. It shapes peoples behaviour on the basis that every action they perform will be accounted for by Allah (swt) and therefore all their actions must be in accordance with the Shari’ah. Following the Shar’iah ensures that the desires of people such as the sexual inclinations are channelled according to the divine law. Islam prohibits sexual relationships between men and women prior to marriage and guards the society by forbidding the promotion of lewdness in any form. The Muslim realises that his purpose is not to maximise his pleasure, rather it is to attain the pleasure of Allah (swt).

The decay in Western societies, as a result of the implementation of the Capitalist ideology, has led to a situation where it has now become unsafe for children to leave the sight of their parents. In a society which prides itself on freedom, we find the people today living in shackles.

This situation, demands from the Muslims in the West to present Islam as an alternative to Capitalism. Presenting Islam requires knowledge, bravery and patience. It also requires for Muslims to reject integration into the Western culture or isolation from society. Instead, today the shackled people of the West require Islam more than ever, to deliver them from the narrowness of an ailing ideology to the comprehensiveness of Islam. Allah (Subhanhu Wa Ta’aala) says,

ÇÏúÚõ Åöáöì ÓóÈöíáö ÑóÈøößó ÈöÇáúÍößúãóÉö æóÇáúãóæúÚöÙóÉö ÇáúÍóÓóäóÉö æóÌóÇÏöáúåõã ÈöÇáøóÊöí åöíó ÃóÍúÓóäõ

“Invite to the way of your Lord with Hikma (wisdom) and good advice, and argue with them in a way that is best” [TMQ An-Nahl: 125]

Clubber, i have to say that i think your sense of timing is somewhat lacking! As a Muslim i will argue as strongly as the next person in defending Islamic values, however, to use the tragic murder of these two girls as a spring board to gain religious brownie points - whether Islamic or otherwise - is hitting a little below the belt. The points you make may indeed be valid, but you could have made them without reference to the Soham abductions. A title like "Death of Two Girls Illustrates Decay of Capitalism" is hardly appropriate at this time. You might not agree, but that's just how i feel about it. I think you've acted contrary to the verse that you yourself cited at the end of your post:

"Invite to the way of your Lord with Hikma (wisdom) and good advice, and argue with them in a way that is best" [An-Nahl: 125]

Iqbal

yet but how are we to show them an alltertive way of life when no one littisn to the muslims

bah it has less to do with capitalism and more to do with sick *******s. Who says Islam does not allow indvidualism and freedom..there are rules you follow, but rest of your life is for you to decide how you live it and what you do, u can make the right choices and the wrong choices. Saying that islam gives a person no individualism or freedom is as wrong as wrong can be for a statement.

You have sickos everywhere...dont forget our own sickos and the shameful punishment by the panchayat in that village in Pakistan. Dont forget the whole "ashna" culture where little boys are abused which goes on in Pakistan.

People make choices, good or bad..some turn out to be sickos..and we hear such crap, but that is not to say that capitalism breeds it..the whole logic is flawed.

.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *
Clubber, i have to say that i think your sense of timing is somewhat lacking! As a Muslim i will argue as strongly as the next person in defending Islamic values, however, to use the tragic murder of these two girls as a spring board to gain religious brownie points - whether Islamic or otherwise - is hitting a little below the belt. The points you make may indeed be valid, but you could have made them without reference to the Soham abductions. A title like "Death of Two Girls Illustrates Decay of Capitalism" is hardly appropriate at this time. You might not agree, but that's just how i feel about it. I think you've acted contrary to the verse that you yourself cited at the end of your post:

"Invite to the way of your Lord with Hikma (wisdom) and good advice, and argue with them in a way that is best" [An-Nahl: 125]

Iqbal
[/QUOTE]

why are u so worried about what the kuffar think?
are they not the same dogs who put this ummah in the sitchwation they are in today

Re: .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by al_nasar: *
why are u so worried about what the kuffar think?
are they not the same dogs who put this ummah in the sitchwation they are in today
[/QUOTE]

Is it so bad to feel for humanity sometimes? Nevertheless, where in my post did i say anything about "kuffar" and "dogs"? Perhaps you'd like to read the verse that Clubber first cited and which i repeated. It's all about wisdom my friend - wisdom dictates how the message is to be imparted, not how it might be received. You have no control over how someone will react, so i wasn't addressing that at all, but you certainly have full control over when and where you deliver the message and more importantly how you deliver it.

And by the way, what is "sitchwation"?

Iqbal

Re: Re: .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *

And by the way, what is "sitchwation"?

Iqbal
[/QUOTE]

A swift kick in the well situated family jewels!

Th eonly "dogs" that put "ummah" in this situation are the inner fighting, hatred, closed mindedness, that allowed idiots to stop us from flourishing and growing. Someone had a really good article around here about how scientists were declared heretics..

its due to the same type of "dogs" who argued whether using guns in a battle was islamic or not while soldiers died.

Due to the same dogs which have under the guise of religion only furthered their own agenda for their power...the same "dogs" who cant even unite among themsaelves but see themselves as saviours of a "united" ummah.

lets worry about those dogs and their puppies first.

Fraudz, i'm glad i don't hate as many people as you do or hate them in the way that you hate them. I try to be a little more sensible than that.

Iqbal

Pir ji even though you have blamed the dogs for the demise, but they are not the only ones to be blamed. There were and are Dogs out side the fence waiting to rip the whole thing to peices.

I agree that we should take care of the dogs which are alredy in the fence, but taking care of the dogs out side is equely important.

Minime, pray tell, how can we take care of the dogs across the fence when we can't control our own dogs?

Hey, after all, the Rasul fought a Jihaad only when it was absolutely necessary and the EXISTENCE of his LOYAL ummah was at stake AND WHEN HIS UMMAH WAS ORGANIZED AND RELIGIOUSLY INTACT.

So what business do we sinners have pushing one system over another when we can't follow the same system we WANT in existence?

I do not like the analogy of dogs internal or external.
I posted the article in another thread by Parvaiz Hoodbhoy where he points out that decisions made in the 12th century by the “Islamic leaders” set the Muslim world onto the path where we are dead last in science and education!! I don’t think any external threat has been more damaging than the ones made 900 years ago.

http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69554

**Zealots persecuted and hounded, for petty doctrinal reasons, those very Muslim scholars to whom Islamic civilization owes much of its former brilliance and greatness. Al Kindi was whipped in public by a fanatical sultan and blinded, Al Razi and Ibn Sina escaped numerous charges of blasphemy and attempts upon their lives, and Ibn Rushd was exiled and had his books burned **

Iqbal

I appreciate your response, you are new here but a very sensible fellow.
I dont hate anyone..I intentionally used, and overused the word "dogs" in my response to really show how venemous that makes any point sound..yet terms like these are thrown about very casually from our self appointed defenders of the faith.

Minime

i will no longer use the term dogs since it was used to make a point. I agree that destructive forces within need to be dealt with just as destructive forces outside. sadly I feel that in many cases it has been our internal destructive forces squaring off against external destructive forces, or potential destructive forces..and we just play the role of a pawn. Our history will show that many times the external enemies would not have been successful had it not been for the internal strife and power games, in the guise of religion as well as tribe and ethnicity. Yet we keep falling for it again and again.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *
Clubber, i have to say that i think your sense of timing is somewhat lacking! As a Muslim i will argue as strongly as the next person in defending Islamic values, however, to use the tragic murder of these two girls as a spring board to gain religious brownie points - whether Islamic or otherwise - is hitting a little below the belt. The points you make may indeed be valid, but you could have made them without reference to the Soham abductions. A title like "Death of Two Girls Illustrates Decay of Capitalism" is hardly appropriate at this time. You might not agree, but that's just how i feel about it. I think you've acted contrary to the verse that you yourself cited at the end of your post:

"Invite to the way of your Lord with Hikma (wisdom) and good advice, and argue with them in a way that is best" [An-Nahl: 125]

Iqbal
[/QUOTE]

Salaam alikum i understand your point, but first i would like to clarify that this post was NOT done for the purpose of "gaining brownie points". As for the timing, we as muslims need to remeber islam is pratcial and has method to solve problems in any society in any day n age. The death of the girls was a tragic event ...and people are asking why it happened? how could it have happened??? and what the punishemnet should be??? etc, et..and in the article it addressed these questions. (i.e it highligthed the problem and showed the solution)

Indeed this heartbreaking event is very shocking but lets also remeber ALL THE OTHER TRAGEDIES across the world from Palestine,Kashmir,Gujarat,South America,Rwanada,Iraq,Somalia,Congo,Checyna,Afhganistan,etc which have resulted from the rotten ideology of captilism(written by a few men who took the role of GOD) which places benefit and self intrest before the humanitirian value.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Fraudz: *
bah it has less to do with capitalism and more to do with sick *
*****s. Who says Islam does not allow indvidualism and freedom..there are rules you follow, but rest of your life is for you to decide how you live it and what you do, u can make the right choices and the wrong choices. Saying that islam gives a person no individualism or freedom is as wrong as wrong can be for a statement.

You have sickos everywhere...dont forget our own sickos and the shameful punishment by the panchayat in that village in Pakistan. Dont forget the whole "ashna" culture where little boys are abused which goes on in Pakistan.

People make choices, good or bad..some turn out to be sickos..and we hear such crap, but that is not to say that capitalism breeds it..the whole logic is flawed.
[/QUOTE]

Sickos how do they come about? where do they get thier ideas from? why do they do it?... If one is taught that indivlidism and freedom is the purpose of life and in fact happiness in itself, then naturally that person will follow their whims n desires regardless of the consquences of their actions..... In fact these sickos are the direct product of FREEDOM in its TRUEST N PUREST form, i.e that man is free to do what he wants as long as he himself is happy!........ok maybe there would be a point that if these sickos were a minority, but in reality there are not (go check the crime figures) crime is on the increase and blowing out of control......why was that in the 1400 yr old history of the Islamic State there were only about 200 punishments handed out????, compare that with 2days so called civilsied world....u get 200 shooting a day! ( dont know exact figure but maybe some1 can help me out with crime figures).......my point is that when you tell society that they are free, they will ultimaletly explore every form of freedom i.e homosexuliaty,same sex marraiges,philadphlies,drugs,having sex with animals,etc................

oh yeah the point abt sickos in Pakistan, same thing applies there aswell, ppl r taught that happiness lies in the freedoms. As for the Village incident it shows what happens when men decide what isGOOD n BAD using their limited n weak mind>>>>>>that when man decides on a system to run the affairs of mankind that it will be liable to disparity, differences, contradiction and being influenced by the environment in which he lives..

Re: .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by al_nasar: *

why are u so worried about what the kuffar think?
are they not the same dogs who put this ummah in the sitchwation they are in today
[/QUOTE]

Salaam Alikum

I think what Al Nasar is trying to say is that the source and backwardness of the muslim ummah is due to the CORRUPT,TRYINCALLY AND HYPCROTE RULERS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD (who take their orders from their Western masters Rather than the Orers of Allah(swt) and the none implementation of ISLAM as ideology.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by clubber lang: *

Sickos how do they come about? where do they get thier ideas from? why do they do it?... **

why did habeel kill qabeel...or was it the other way around. Even from a religious point of view..Satan tries to influence you..its your job to not get influenced right? Islam does not deny freedom and individualism, if offers it..

*..... In fact these sickos are the direct product of FREEDOM in its TRUEST N PUREST form, i.e that man is free to do what he wants as long as he himself is happy! *

now there are laws agisnt this stuff..if civil laws did nto stop them why do you think islamic laws will stop them?

as far as all kinds of stuff going on here, do you have any idea how much goes on behind the scenes in other countries? during prohibition in US there was a huge alcohol trade going on. same goes for alcohol, drugs, prostitution in Pakistan, saudi arabia etc etc..where there are laws against it.

The basic premise that freedom and individualism equals corruption is flawed.

I am not about to hand over my freedom of thought and individualism to some deranged totalitarian mullah based on your argument. It needs more work.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by clubber lang: *

Sickos how do they come about? where do they get thier ideas from? why do they do it?... **

why did habeel kill qabeel...or was it the other way around. Even from a religious point of view..Satan tries to influence you..its your job to not get influenced right? Islam does not deny freedom and individualism, if offers it..

*..... In fact these sickos are the direct product of FREEDOM in its TRUEST N PUREST form, i.e that man is free to do what he wants as long as he himself is happy! *

now there are laws agisnt this stuff..if civil laws did nto stop them why do you think islamic laws will stop them?

as far as all kinds of stuff going on here, do you have any idea how much goes on behind the scenes in other countries? during prohibition in US there was a huge alcohol trade going on. same goes for alcohol, drugs, prostitution in Pakistan, saudi arabia etc etc..where there are laws against it.

The basic premise that freedom and individualism equals corruption is flawed.

I am not about to hand over my freedom of thought and individualism to some deranged totalitarian mullah based on your argument. It needs more work.
[/QUOTE]

salaam alikum

"why did habeel kill qabeel?"

Mr Fraduia i already answered this question in the last reply. if u paid any attenetion to it, u would have noticed that i said that in Pakistan, the islamic society doesnt exist(nor everywhere else in the world)...the point being that in the muslim world, the concept of freedoms is also heavily pushed which causes the same problems seen in the west.

"now there are laws agisnt this stuff..if civil laws did nto stop them why do you think islamic laws will stop them?"

If there are laws, then that means society is NOT FREE. This is exactly the point iam making, i.e that mankind cannot be free because that will cause chaos in society and hence the whole western way of life is based on a myth, cuz if mankind was free to do what they wanted, they wouldnt need no laws to abide by....its simple A SOCIETY CANNOT FUNCTION UNLESS IT HAS LAWS TO ABIDE BY.....

the point is even though freedom exists in theory it cannot be implemented in practise. Hence we see ppl on 1 hand told they are free to do what they desire BUT on the other hand told they have to obey laws……..kind of a big time contradiction.

"I am not about to hand over my freedom of thought and individualism to some deranged totalitarian mullah based on your argument. It needs more work."

Ok lets see if this statement agrees with Islam...lets test these so called freedom against what islam says.

Freedom of belief........ok if a person accepts islam, then they are not allowed tp become non Muslim. Hence no freedom of belief....and also Allah(swt) says that the only deen accepted to Him(swt) is Islam

Freedom of speech......so this means that a person can slander the prophet(saw)?, so this means a person can slander islam?, so this means that a person can insult deen of haq?so this means ppl can say what they want even though it goes agianst islam?so this means a person annot isult ur parents?....No By Allah(swt) none of these are allowed by islam..... hence no freedom of speech.

Personal freedom...this means that a person can do what they want in their personal life, in other words they dont have to obey islam in their private life.....obviously a muslim has to be obey the halal n haram wherever they are, wheather in public or private life....... hence no personal freedom

Freedom of ownership....ok this means that man is free to own want he wants....so can a person can own a pub? can a perosn own a brothel? can ppl seel drugz? can ppl take intrest? can ppl invest in shares? hav a bank system based on usury? can individuals own natural resources??.....the point is that muslims are ONLY allowed to own n trade in things permitted by islam.

wal kum salaam

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by clubber lang: *
Ok lets see if this statement agrees with Islam...lets test these so called freedom against what islam says.

Freedom of belief......... Hence no freedom of belief....and also Allah(swt) says that the only deen accepted to Him(swt) is Islam

Freedom of speech......so this means that a person can slander the prophet(saw)?, so this means a person can slander islam?, so this means that a person can insult deen of haq?so this means ppl can say what they want even though it goes agianst islam?so this means a person annot isult ur parents?....No By Allah(swt) none of these are allowed by islam..... hence no freedom of speech.

Personal freedom...this means that a person can do what they want in their personal life, in other words they dont have to obey islam in their private life.....obviously a muslim has to be obey the halal n haram wherever they are, wheather in public or private life.......** hence no personal freedom**

Freedom of ownership....ok this means that man is free to own want he wants....so can a person can own a pub? can a perosn own a brothel? can ppl seel drugz? can ppl take intrest? can ppl invest in shares? hav a bank system based on usury? can individuals own natural resources??.....the point is that muslims are ONLY allowed to own n trade in things permitted by islam.

wal kum salaam
[/QUOTE]

May I know from which school you get these ideas? Have you really cleared them with your sheik ? Can you really say this kind of stuff in the masjids of Pakistan these days?

clubber lang

Seperate the cultural issues here. owning a pub is not illegal in US. As a matter of fact it is not illegal even under islamic laws, if you are not a muslim.

Now all that you have stated could be turned around in 3 diff ways.

1) since there are laws in US as well, is there "real freedom" here.
2) Do laws in themselves prevent illegal actions
3) How much of the stuff that is considered illegal still goes on but underground.

You seem to have a magic pill solution...Now the question is...Do we not read about crime during thr prophet's time? That to us is the perfect muslim state...yet crimes did take place...by your token that system was flawed...and by my token.. there are limites to what a system can do. if you want the system to be all controlling then you seem to be in favor of some religious version of chinese or old soviet regimes.