*Doctor Beverly Crusher (Human, referring to a dead Klingon): Is there any special arrangement you would like for the body?
**Captain Korris *(Klingon) : It is only an empty shell now. Please treat it as such.
I am reading a book about cadavers and how they help us to live a better, value added and safer life. They are used as crash test dummies to build safer cars, they are operated by plastic surgery students so burn victims for instance can be treated with better results , they are thrown in an open field and their decay is observed by forensic science researchers so real crimes can be solved with successful results. This is over and above the organ donation that directly contributes towards saving many many lives every year.
So why people don’t see that as a greater value for mankind, and hold on to the memories of their love ones by refusing to let any scalpel ever touch their skin after they are gone?
Should people see more value, if a body of their love one is donated to medical science, or more value is in the peace of mind knowing that deceased is sleeping in the grave, intact? Why people are emotionally attached to something that is not there anymore?
I know it’s a sensitive topic. Please do not associate your love ones with my question. Keep it general to keep the discussion going.
This is an interesting thread and a topic that I had been thinking about for a while. As part of school, I did human body dissections and the first time I stepped into the lab, I felt terrible. All that would come in my mind is that I am disrespecting a dead person's body to a point where I would make my partner do most of the dissection. I still feel this way from time to time. However, the amount of knowledge that came out of it and the way I can apply that knowledge into my practice cannot be described, I mean I don't think there is any better way to learn human anatomy than from dissecting a human body.
I am not 100% in favour of it regardless of its importance. The truth is that at one point, these bodies really do become just learning tools. Usually the face is covered and when you do it so frequently, you often forget that it's a body of a human being.
Hula, the book I am reading talks about the "respect" aspect of dissecting human bodies. The author argues that respect comes from the value a cadaver adds. It also talks about how respectfully students/doctors treat those cadavers and often give them names, not to metion refer the body as he/she than it.
^ Give the dead bodies respect? By giving them names and then throwing them out in to the field like some sort of insignificant piece of meat? I'm sure you wouldn't oppose the idea of actually consuming and recycling our dead either?
^ Give the dead bodies respect? By giving them names and then throwing them out in to the field like some sort of insignificant piece of meat? I'm sure you wouldn't oppose the idea of actually consuming and recycling our dead either?
how would consuming bring a value? And I requested not to get personal in this thread, as its very easy to sway that way considering the sensitivity of the topic.
Its very hard for me to think about it without bringing in the Islamic aspect and I do not believe that allow any such thing on human bodies.
All the research can be done on other animals I guess?
Human bodies decay differently because of the type of proteins that we carry.
Lets have a flip perspective. If someone we know is murdered and cops find the body few days later, would we expect the case to be solved, justice to be served, the forensics exams and all being performed? If the bench mark has not been established using actual human bodies, no forensic test or autopsy would give us an conclusion cause would not know what to compare the result with?
Yes Mr X's body is swollen, and skin is peeling off, but we dont know what it means as we only did our research using monkeys whose skin composition is totally different than humans.
I am not at all arguing against Islam's ruling on this. I believe that our bodies belong to Allah swt and should be taken as a 'loan' from Him.
To whoever said, do research on animals, it is not the same. Animal studies cannot be directly generalized to human beings, there are huge differences. Currently, ANY study done on animals is ALWAYS ALWAYS done on human beings as well after to ensure whatever they are researching on can be generalized to human beings.
I am also not treating animals so dissecting animals is not going to help me much.
plus ALL of us get healthcare from medical professionals who in 99% of the cases have done human dissections, which has allowed them to understand human anatomy inside out. You can't expect a surgeon to open up a live body and perform surgery if he/she hasn't practiced it on a cadaver.
Hula, the book I am reading talks about the "respect" aspect of dissecting human bodies. The author argues that respect comes from the value a cadaver adds. It also talks about how respectfully students/doctors treat those cadavers and often give them names, not to metion refer the body as he/she than it.
Yes, I mean all of us had to take an oath to respect these bodies. We never ever even discussed them in public places. I mean, we never removed the cover from their faces and such. But like I said, it still does not relieve me a 100%. It is little burden on my conscience to be honest. However, it is a requirement of the program, and like i said earlier, I would not be able to treat my patients if I didn't understand human anatomy without actually seeing it in real.
Once I read a debate on this issue. The Arab scholars are in favor of organ donation while the subcontinent scholars are not in favor of it. The views, reasoning and logic of both (a very long list) are so convincing that it becomes very difficult (and confusing) to decide whose argument is more (as a whole) logical, practical and more in accordance to sunnah. But of course it is not that simple, there are a lot of conditions and exceptions in both the arguments.
I am too tired at the moment to search for that link and paste it here.
p.s. Before anyone criticize the 'conflict' among ulama, the differences of opinion among scholars has been declared a blessing, because it brings up many dimensions/ perspectives of that issue. Even the top Suhabas had differences of opinion, hence people avoiding religion and mentioning 'conflict among scholars' as an excuse need to re-think what excuse is excusable when ALLAH Himself would questions them in hereafter life.
Raw, I am aware of the opinion difference but that stays at organ donation . Here, we are talking about way beyond organ donation. I am not sure what is going to be Islamic stance on that.
Hula, you must read the book I am talking about. It's called STIFF. Search it and it should be second or third link
A very good topic. I understand that it is difficult to not get personal about it. For a moment let us think, would we be in a position to donate a close relative's body for research. It is a very hard decision. I think people need to be educated about this and encouraged to donate their bodies. When I think about donating my body, it becomes hard for me to think that my body would be an exhibit for unknowns to peer at..
as much as we should hate the act (crime), dead bodies should command equal request. Crime committed was by soul/mind and that remain no more in dead body.
great thread TLK.
this is a good point that I have never thought of bringing up in my family's discussion on organ donation.
I am always outnumbered on that one.....
When I think about donating my body, it becomes hard for me to think that my body would be an exhibit for unknowns to peer at..
Exactly my fear Storm.
I think only rapists and pedos' bodies should be used for experimenting/throwing out in the field etc.
Being a cadaver is not a punishment Hareem. In fact if I may, donating his body to science gives a person chance to add value to the society, even after death. Kind of Sadqa-e-Jariyaa if you may. In yesterdays chapter (tha I read) of using Cadavers in auto crash testing, statistically speaking, every cadaver saves about 2000 lives. That is better than organ donation where a dead person can only save half a dozen lives (if we donate all of his vital organs)
Pakistan me to cadavers pe ban hay. Yahan pe doctor zinda logon pe hath saaf karte hain.
Lol. you are so right.
great thread TLK.
this is a good point that I have never thought of bringing up in my family's discussion on organ donation.
I am always outnumbered on that one.....
what I don't understand is.....
if you truly believe in the concept of a "soul" that departs the body after your death then how can we continue to believe that the body should not be sliced and diced?
MIL can be composted in the backyard .
