Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

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and yet they fought against eachother.

~~~Missing Someone~~~
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Now thats quite serious. You have been provided proofs from Quran that Allah [swt] cursed and He [swt] involved ALL MANKIND in this act which includes Holy Prophet [s], while reference from Quran was also given to you wherein Prophet [s] along with Ali [as] and other member of his house invoked curse on his apponents, moreover the tradition from Al-Bidayah was also provided to you wherein Prophet [s] mentioned the curse upon a person who does such and such act. Mamooli brother showed a reference wherein Ali bin Abi Talib [as] cursed, so whats goin on dear? Dont you pay attention to the posts we all make here, believe me it require efforts to do it so you should go through what we post.

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Re: Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

^ it took me some time to understand the whole perspective. I apologize for my mistake. You are right, I should have payed more attention to that specific verse. I did consider it, but couldn't catch the depth of it in the first read. I would be more careful in future, inshaAllah.

May Allah (s.w.t) forgive our mistakes and guide us in the right direction.

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^although u intiailly totally shunned away and ignored many proves in this thread and frustrated many i wish to salute your attitude. Finally you have shown a big heart and willingness to think and learn. That is rare in todays world but i feel it is the best trait one could have.

~*~ Time Pass June 2012 ~*~
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JazakAllah khair brother for the kind encouragement. I believe that unless Allah (s.w.t) doesn't open our heart for the truth, we wouldn't understand it no matter how simple and logical the explanation might me. For that we need to be sincere in our search for truth and pray to Allah (s.w.t) for wisdom and strength. May Allah (s.w.t) open our heart for the truth.

^ This in my understanding is one of the cases where the oppressors have a right to invoke Allah's curse on the oppressors "by name" after seeing with their own eyes their own daughters, wives, mothers and sisters being iltreated and tortured by them.

BUT in case of the companions of the Prophet (saw) if I have to curse the wrong doers and pray for the right ones, I would follow the guidelines of the Prophet's way by not name calling but only praying in general.
**
O' Allah, I was not present at the times when the fights took place among the companions of the Prophet (saw). I have not seen it with my eyes and I have been given information against and in favour of different suhabas by sources which are contradicting to each other so I don't know whom to trust. I don't want to put myself in trouble on the day of judgement by cursing people without completely knowing what were intentions behind their actions. O'Allah only YOU know the truth of their heart. I pray to inovke your curse on all those present at that time who intentionally supported the falsehood for worldly benefits. And I pray to You to bless all those whose intentions were sincere (for Allah) with the highest degree in Jannat-ul-Firdos. Becuase only YOU have the complete knowledge of their hearts, only YOU are the best judge of their intentions and ONLY YOU know who deserves reward and who deserves punishment. I am not equal to the dust in the feet of Hazrat Ali (r.a), Hazrat Ayesha (r.a), Hazrat Umar (r.a), Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a), Hazrat Usman (r.a)...etc. to be able to even give a comment on anyone.**

~*~ Time Pass June 2012 ~*~
~*~ Time Pass June 2012 ~*~
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Re: Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

^ brother, the benchmark for us is Allah, Rasool Allah and Quran. Quran itself curses anybody who hurts or disobeys the Prophet. So please do not say that you don't know whats Haq or whats baatil. If it is that confusing then perhaps Rasool Allah, nauzobillah, didnt make haq clear enough for us to see.

Going by your logic we cant condemn anyone be it Muawiya, Yazid, Bush, Musharraf, Zardari, Isreali oppressors, American aggressors or whatever.

For example, I had heared of Zakir Naik before but lost all respect for him after the comments he made about Yazid. Someone drinks, fornicates, does every najis thing possible on the Minbar of Rasool Allah, then goes on to kill Imam Hussein- thirsty and hungry along with his family including the 6 month old baby. Takes prisioner his family and emprisions them. Stones the holy kaaba, massacares Muslims and then Zakir Naik says Razi Allah o Ta'lah to his name. Would then Allah forgive Shaitaan too on the day of judement? Whats the point of all the religion then?

Isn't Imam Hussein called son of the Prophet by Quran in Ayat e Mubahila?
Arent there numerous praise of him and his family in the Quran?
Hasnt Rasool Allah said "Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain"?

Not cursing and condemning such injustice is the biggest injustic itself.

~*~ Time Pass June 2012 ~*~
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Re: Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

^ I understand your point brother and I agree being against people like Yazid. But I am not convinced when people talk against Hazrat Ayesha (r.a), Hazrat Umar (r.a), Hazrat Abu-Bakr (r.a) and Hazrat Usman (r.a). These people gave a lot of sacrifices for Islam, and if they made any mistake anywhere, they deserve benefit of doubt and only Allah (s.w.t) is the Judge of their** true intentions**.

Quran calls all the wives of the Prophet (saw) as mothers of all Mo'mineen. If any of them didn't deserve to be called the mother of all Mo'mineen, Allah (s.w.t) would have ordered the prophet (saw) to not marry her.

May Allah (s.w.t) bless us with the wisdom to understand the status of pious people and show respect for them.

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Re: Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

What do you think of the wife of the Prophet Loot (as)? What do you think of the wife of the Prophet Noah (as)? Why did Allah (swt) order the Prophets to marry them?

And Hz Ayesha clearly violated the Quran. Is there any doubts over that?

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Re: Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

Submission, its a blessed month of Ramzan and i really like your approach to seek the truth. Here is a gift from me to you which will touch your heart:

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That is fine if you dont have the time, resources or ability to find the facts for yourself. but when you have all that available and you remain sitting on the fence, then i dont think the argument still flows.

but if it keeps you on the safe side till then, its all good. so long as you keep an open mind.

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Re: Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

astaghfirulaj dont equate Hazrat Ayesha with Prophet Noah's wife. There is simply no comparsion.

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Brother, Allah (s.w.t) didn't use "Mother of believers" for the wives of other prophets but only for the wives of the Prophet Muhammad (saw), as it is clear from the following verse.

The Prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers.” (Quran, 33:6)

Allah (s.w.t) knows people's intentions, and Allah wouldn't give the highest degree to a woman who don't deserve it.

p.s. I would inshaAllah see the whole video you posted and then share my comments about it.

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1. The title of ‘mother of the believers’ was not bestowed upon them because it shows any kind of merits of their own.

2. ‘Motherhood’ was further endorced in this verse to prohibit the Muslim men from marraying the wives of Holy Prophet [s] in evetuality of divorce or after His death.

3. Being mother of the beliver is a concept/title which is ‘dependent on the believers’ and its not the vice versa. Its like: *‘Meet her, she is the mother of Dr. A Q Khan’. *A Q Khan’s mother’s identity is dependent on A’Q Khan, thus the merit is of A.Q Khan not of his mother.

4. A mother can be good or bad. I know mothers who doesnt care for their child and leave them to wander on to the streets no matter where the child goes and what bad company he keeps, the mother just want to remain busy with chitchat and related stuff. No one is going to call such a mother as a good mother in fact her acts have opened the door of criticism (for her acts, not the personal slander or character assisination)!.

5. You talked of people’s intentions, then in its relation we see that Holy Prophet [s] predicted that hz Ayesha will:
**- do a rebellion (which is a big thing since it is said that the funeral prayer of a rebel is not to be recited and one who dies without recognizing the imam of his/her time dies at the death of Jahilyah period)

  • will be accompanied by infidels (this shows what status those people had in the eyes of Prophet [s], whlist they were Sahaba and how grave their crime/sin was)
    - The dogs of Hawab will bark at her and that will be the sign of her being at wrong path (yet she didnt pay heed to this massive sign of her being on wrong path and moved on persisting with the war, resulting murder of thousands of Muslims).
    **- **Ali bin Abi Talib [as] will be on the right path
    **- **Whoever sees such a situation look for Ali bin Abi Talib [as] and adhere to him [as].

I hope I have summarized the whole lengthy debate it one post.

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Re: Cursing for what ?! Sawaab ?

It is clear that Allah (s.w.t) did give her the title of "Mother of Believers" (along with other wives of the Prophet) no matter what mistakes she might have made (according to shia sources).

Even from a shia point of view, Islam teaches us to be respectful to our mothers no matter how many mistakes they make, and leave the judgment of their intentions to Allah (s.w.t).

When Hazrat Nooh (a.s) was sad after his son's death, Allah (s.w.t) told Hazrat Nooh (a.s) " He was not your son"

But here Allah (s.w.t) didn't specifically pointed out Hazrat Ayesha (r.a) when he gave the title of "Um-ul-mo'mineen" to ALL the wives of the Prophet (saw)

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brother, we do not have the scripture that was revealed on Hazrat Noah (as) so we can not say for sure what Allah (swt) revealed in his scripture about his wife/wives. Allah knows the best.

About the ayat that you have quoted, please read Anfal: 75 to see that "blood relations are nearer one to another in the book of Allah than the believers and muhajirs". Prophet's Uncle, his own blood, Abu Lahab was condemned to a level that a seperate Sura was revelead in his condemnation. Wives are not blood relation.

But tell me if stating the fact or truth about somebody you know comes under disrespect ?? Yet i agree that we must respect the wives of our Prophet (pbuh). Look at how Imam Ali (as) dealth with Ayesha after at the end of the battle of Jamal:

After himulating defeat in Jamal to Ayesha, Imam Ali (AS) restrained his men from taking any war booty. Upon hearing this the people insisted upon their right on the maal e ghaneemat. When they kept on persisting with their demand, Imam Ali said "tell me which one of you will have your mother Ayesha?". This left the people embarassed and they realised their mistake. Imam Ali (as) protected the dignity of the house of the Prophet (pbuh).

All property found on the battle ground was gathered in the mosque of Basra, from where the owners could claim their possessions. Imam Ali (as) ordered Muhammad b Abi Bakr ( Ayesha's brother who had kept on telling Ayesha to refrain from making such mistakes) to take care of Ayesha.

This is what is an Imam! Subhan Allah!

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I was talking according to Sunni soruces by the way. As for 'respect' thing is concerned, I have already stated that condemning the crimes/sins commited by her doesnt mean 'disrespect'.

[QUOTE]
Even from a shia point of view, Islam teaches us to be respectful to our mothers no matter how many mistakes they make, and leave the judgment of their intentions to Allah (s.w.t).
[/QUOTE]

As I said earlier, there is no aspect of deliberately 'disrespecting' her and no oe is denying that the judgment doesnt belong to Allah [swt], we are here explaining the 'reasons' of Shias of Ahlulbayt [as] not adhering to hz Ayesha like Ahle Sunnah do.

[QUOTE]
When Hazrat Nooh (a.s) was sad after his son's death, Allah (s.w.t) told Hazrat Nooh (a.s) " He was not your son"
[/QUOTE]

This shows that the sinners among the family of a prophet are expelled from 'Ahulbayt' .

[quote]
But here Allah (s.w.t) didn't specifically pointed out Hazrat Ayesha (r.a) when he gave the title of "Um-ul-mo'mineen" to ALL the wives of the Prophet (saw)
[/quote]

correct, nobody is claiming the contrary, thats the the point of debate.

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JazakAllah khair both of you for sharing your sincere views. I respect your point of views and would consider it in my sincere search for the truth, by the grace and mercy of Allah (s.w.t)

One thing which is cleared from your posts is that the allegation some people put against Shias that they curse the wife of the prophet (saw), is totally wrong.

It is natural that people from different groups might have differences among each others due to mistakes committed by the elders from both sides, but I appreciate that a lot of Shias follow the footsteps of Hazrat Ali (r.a) as paglu brother mentioned:

[quote]

we must respect the wives of our Prophet (pbuh). Look at how Imam Ali (as) dealth with Ayesha after at the end of the battle of Jamal:
[/quote]

Whenever I used to hear from people that shias curse Hazrat Ayesha (r.a) I was sure that those people were lying as no believer would like to curse his own mother, no matter how much he disagrees with her decisions.

May Allah (s.w.t) bless you for sharing your sincere opinions. May Allah (s.w.t) bless us all towards the right path.

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*Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: **these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. ***Quran: 24:26

Prophet (saw) followed the commands of the Quran to the full.

As the above ayah clearly states that men of purity must marry women of purity.

And Prophet (saw) being the purest of the pure did marry only pure women and Hz. Ayeisha (ra) is one of them and is not effected by what people say.

Now will our Shia brothers and sisters here say that Prophet (saw) ignored the above of the Quranand married a vile scheming lady??? Purety means in body and soul.

No human apart from the Prophets ( peace be upon them all) are infallible.

Hz. Ayeisha (ra) by her own admission did err and did repent for it.

Desipte what people say about her she will be Prophet's (saw) wife in Jannah.

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Quite an old defense for her! All the open and henious crimes committed by her are recored in the books which doesnt mean that they will all become false just because of this verse. According to the view of group of the scholars, this verse is talking about the marriage between fornicators and fornicatress and not talking generally. This is why we see that the very Quran warned the wives of Holy Prophet [s] particularly Ayesha, had the cited verse was a blanket gurantee to Ayesha or for other wives of the Holy Prophet for that matter, Allah would never have admonished Ayesha.
Also, Quran threatened Ayesha to divorce, had the cited verse was a gurantree of her acts (as assumed by you), there was no need to threat her.

She is certainly effected by the words of Holy Prophet [s] according to which she will be a rebel, will be accompanied by infidels, the dogs of hawab will bark at her. And the ‘people’ you are implying also include the sweet sweet Sahaba such as Ammar Yasir [ra] according to whom a point came where obedience to Ayesha was disobedience to Allah [swt] and obedience to Allah [swt] had become disobidience to Ayesha.

Thats your point of view, the ‘she brothers and sisters’ you referred to above hold Ahlulbayt [as] as infallible.

Yes Ayesha admitted her crimes but her attitude was never repentant. Moreover, such a repentant was not going to work since she violated the instructions of Holy Quran to remain in the house, created sedition among the Ummah, killed thousands of Muslims, hated Ali bin Abi Talib [as] - a sin which is recorded in both Shia and Sunni books, and she did all these acts depite the ‘open’ predictions’warnings by Holy Prophet, we should link it with the verse of Quran wherein Allah had made it clear to the wives that if they commit crimes, their punishment was going to be double to that if such crimes were to be committed by any other woman. Now the punishment of killing humans - let alone Muslims, as far as I remember is to abide in Hell forever while Quran says that their punishment will be double - say a lot! And, according to Quran itself, repentance has its time and context limits.

Umm..I will not be surprised if tommorow similar statements come for the wives of Lut [as] and Naoh [as]. Same goes with the murderers etc.

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"This verse is like verse 3 of this surah. There is no legislative significance. The pure consort with the pure, and the impure with the impure. It refers to the general pattern of human behaviour.

Verse 10 of At Tahrim says that the wicked wives of Nuh and Lut betrayed their purified husbands, the prophets of Allah. To remove the contradiction it is necessary to restrict the meaning of the cleanness to chastity and impurity to adultery in this verse, because it was revealed in connection with the accusation of adultery. "They are free from what they say" confirms it. Verse 10 of At Tahrim clearly accuses the wicked wives of the two prophets of disloyalty to their husbands.

The wives of the prophets are free from the dirt of adultery but they are not free from other evils. There is personal accountability before the Lord. One soul cannot claim the merits of another. See commentary of Baqarah: 48; Anam: 165, Bani Israil: 15, Fatir: 18; Zumar:7, Najm:38."

Prophet Mohammad (saww) has said that he will be accompanied by Hazrat Khadija (sa) in Paradise and not any other wife as said above. In a Sahi Hadith Hazrat Ayesha (ra) mentions herself her feelings towards Hazrat Khadija (as):

"I did not feel jealous of any of the wives of the Prophet as much as I did of Khadija though I did not see her, but the Prophet used to mention her very often, and whenever he slaughtered a sheep, he would cut its parts and send them to the women friends of Khadija. When I sometimes said to him, "(You treat Khadija in such a way) as if there is no woman on earth except Khadija," he would say, "Khadija was such-and-such, and from her I had children."

wsalams
ramesha