if we are pakistani and not indian how come all our culture (parts of which i detest) is identical or is derived from indian culture, 
i know one can argue that it was one country but didnt they think to adpat an Islamic way of life and leave the hindu culture? 
evrything (ok i wont generalsie)in âpakistaniâ culture contradicts Islam,this is what makes me so mad 
wat do u guys think?
**
RFâŚat Columbia there is a institue called SIPAâŚgo speak to some peole there and/or read a book by Ganguly (Columbia press)..it will give you an idea on South Aisan history as it is not through the pakistani sifted version of third tier university stuents.
**
SIPA is not an institute, its a graduate school :rolleyes:
CH, I am more familiar with SIPA than you might think. I know the operation they have running in there, it should be called the âCenter for teaching Indophiles.â We all know the BS your compatriots pulled when Professor Ayesha Jalal was teaching Indian history. Itâs always biased Indians teaching Pakistani history but turn the tables around the SIPA yokels were howling mad. Professor Jalal, a winner of the Macarthur prize, was dragged through the mud because of the India lobby could not handle it. Hereâs an archived excerpt from NYTimes:
http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/sawweb/sawnet/news/jalal.html
Ms. Jalal is teaching at Harvard University this year after a bitter fight with Columbia. At Columbia, she says, enrollment in her South Asian history courses doubled from 1991 to 1995, but she was denied tenure in June 1995.
Convinced that a cadre of Indian and India-centric faculty members who objected to a Pakistani woman teaching Indian history had put the kibosh on her tenure application, she sued the university the next year, alleging religious and ethnic discrimination. Columbia refuted her contentions, and this spring, a federal judge in New Yorkâs Southern District dismissed the case, labeling the evidence of bias âthin,â though âsuggestive.â
Ch, by opening up the SIPA issue, youâve opened up a pandoraâs box. You may gone to one or two events from the outside but I have seen Pakistan professors and pro-Pakistani viewpoints heckled even shouted down..yeh, that SIPA.
**
It amazes me that someone went to a top-10 B-School and dinât expand his mind beyond doing monkey level recon anaysis and eva.
ever gheard of Philip Oldenburg?
Do a google researchâŚthings will open up for youâŚhe is a superstar from your university.. :rolleyes: **
First off, do you KNOW my sources? If so, you must be mind reader because I have yet to list them. Oldenburg is a South Asian poli sci expert, he has his bents (albeit less so than MANY of his colleauges). My sources are Anthropological, Historical, and Political. I donât need to do some kiddy google search when I have acces to library of congress and have read many original texts.
Thats a good question aysha 
Itâs because of the Hindu domination and the assimilation of the people of Pakistan, you will find the âHinduâ parts of the culture. If you are living in the US or Europe you will undoubtably know what I am talking about in terms of assimilation-- we all assimilate to the local areas, cultures in varying degress, now multiply that by 20+ generations, donât you think that it becomes a part of the heritage?
Another thing is the Hindu domination, even present on this thread. If you read many of the comments by Indians, calling all people of South Asia hindus and trying to DEPRIVE and DENY the local identities, there will always be a few misguided souls that will actually believe in that âdesiâ theory. I am not saying that many Pakistanis ancestors werenât polytheists, they may have been Buddhists, Sun worshippers and like, they certainly differed from the Hindus which were Aryans and that vanquished the Dravidians.
Fortunately, the tide is turning now that Pakistan has been a separate nation for more than half a century. Quaidâs belief in two nations is alive and well 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
So basically the Aryans-- the people that India draws it's inspiration and heritage from, were responsible for the Indus civilization of Pakistan. Hmm, sounds like the people of the Indus and the Ganges were ALWAYS opposed to each other!
[/QUOTE]
ayans --bad but they integrated slowly in to india.
compare north and south interms of literacy ,infant motality and cumunal discord.
[quote]
or read a book by Ganguly (Columbia press)..
[/quote]
Ganguly? Sumit Ganguly? You have got to be kidding me. Were you simply floored by the fact that Columbia published his book or did you actually care to listen to what he had to say?
Its hard for some people especially from India to digest reality!
My Pakistani brother is right in saying that due to the long era of Colonial rule, Muslims started loosing their own way of life. Hindus had started taking top positions in the governemnt (with the help of British ofcourse). So need for partition of India became even more necessary to retain out separate identity!
It is also true that many unIslamic practices have been adopted by many Muslims. There is surely a great change coming as we are realizing what Islam teaches, but a lot still has to be done.
yes Allah has said that after the weakness of muslims Islam will become victorious!!
i just pray that i live to see this era.:rotato:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
ayans --bad but they integrated slowly in to india.
[/QUOTE]
No they made India integrste slowly to the Aryan concepts..decimating cultures, identities...now are these the people you want to be proud of?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
compare north and south interms of literacy ,infant motality and cumunal discord.
[/QUOTE]
So you do agree that the Aryan areas of North India have fared worse that Dravidian, indegenious South? If so, I applaud your truthfulness. If the South Indians would have been the masters od destiny for India, I can assure you that terms with Pakistan would have been better.
The reason I opened this topic was to let others know that we are a separate nation indeed. If Indians have doubts which they saurely do about what Indian means, they should be removed.
I never had any doubts about this! The Indians do try to spread their evil ideas about nationhood! This thread was created to counter those and let them know that the creation of Pakistan was no mistake! It was a decision of all Muslims of India.
We are proud about our Muslim identity!!!
Sumerian has no known relation to any other language. There seems to be a remote relationship with Dravidian languages (like spoken by the Tamils, now in the south of India). There is evidence that the Dravidian languages were spoken in the north of India, being displaced by the arrival of the Indo-European invaders around 1500 BCE. Because of the term âthe black-headed onesâ, it is possible (but far from proven) that the Sumerians are an early branch of one of the people now living in southern India.
http://saturn.sron.nl/~jheise/akkadian/Welcome_mesopotamia.html
Rvikz, the theory seems plausible. The socalled âIndo-Europeanâ invaders of the author are actually aryans which destroyed the true Indian culture. Not only did they displace the Dravidians, but also subjugated all indegenious thought, culture and designated it as âIndian.â It is simply prospeterous to believe that these Aryan usurpers would not only deviod the identitities of the indegenious people, but also have the call to call their foriegn inspired culture to be the sole representative of India.
True Indian culture..some argue that there is no static thing as true Indian culture but the culture of India is evolving and very much present. I wrote this in another thread, thought I might use it again to explain...
India is like a strong banyan tree...
The tree is strong because of the diversity. We have a large hindu following, second largest muslim, the christian comunity goes back 2000 years to Thomas. We have the tree where Buddha reached enlightenment, hindu temples built under the guidance of god, mosques so large that 70,000 muslims can pray to Allah at a single time. The stupas and monastaries of buddhists are carved into our mountains,the stone colossi of the jains dominate the hillside, the Tower of Silence and Fire temples for the followers of Zoroaster, the wonderful marble and glod domed gurdwaras, the cathedrals of roman catholics, the orthodox churches of the Amrenians who fled the pogrom of the Ottoman empire and the synogogues of the jews. (one of the 12 tribes of ISrael is said to have arrived in Kerala)
People come in..through conquests...through travels..due to persecution...but in the end they become Indian.
No they dont 
Aryans TRANSFORMED IndiaâŚMuslims CHANGED it forever. A good comparison of the Aryan/Dravidian situation would be to the Native Americans being vanquished. Now would you call Americaâs culture consisting of Native Americans? Unless you completely disregard reality, you KNOW that the American culture is based on a WASP/Protastant model not a polytheistic Native American one, now who âbecamewâ an American and who TRANSFORMED it?
CH, learn your history either your a descendent of the Aryans, thus part of the problem or one of the vanquished Dravidian who pretends to follow an Indian culture which is nothing more than Aryanism.
RF: I Know SIPA very well. Have known many of the professors there for years. THis chip on the shoulder about Prof Jalalâs dismissal as bias and SIPA being pro Indian is hogwash. India dominates the topics there becuase INdia is a lot bigger than Pak. It;s historyand culture a lot more diverse and older. You are comparing 5000 yrs of history to 50 yrs? Comeon man..even Bukhara Grill is referred to as an INdian restaurant.
Source: http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2003042103741100.htm
Change in demography of religious groups needs study, says Advani
By Our Staff Reporter
NEW DELHI APRIL 20. The Deputy Prime Minister, L.K. Advani, today called for a rigorous and continuous observation and analysis of the changing demography of different religious groups in various parts of the country.
Addressing a select audience here after releasing a book âReligious Demography of Indiaâ, Mr. Advani said such an analysis was of **amount importance to maintain the integrity of âour bordersâ and peace, harmony and public order within the country. **Written by A.P. Joshi, M. D. Srinivas and J. K. Bajaj, the book has been published by the Chennai-based Centre for Policy Studies in association with the Indian Council of Social Science Research.
Referring to some findings of the book regarding demographic changes of various religions in the past one century, he said: "Politicians should not shy away from demographic changes in India such as the North-Eastâ'. He termed the book as a landmark publication.
**
Giving some findings of the book, Mr. Bajaj said that with the current trend of demographic changes in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the percentage of Hindus (including Buddhists, Jain and Sikhs, for which the three authors have given a common term of Indian Religionists) would be reduced to minorities in the second half of the century.** The percentage of Indian religionists in the region had dropped from 78 per cent to 67 per cent in a century. This, Mr. Bajaj, said was a fairly large decline for a single religious community.
Commenting specifically on India, Mr. Bajaj said 57 per cent of the population lived in two-thirds of the country, where Hindus constituted more than 90 per cent of the population. However, there were some pockets of Muslim-dominated areas and some Christian-dominated ones.
On the Gangetic belt, comprising 19 per cent of the area and 38 per cent of the population, Mr. Bajaj said the share of Indian religionists had come down by four per cent, which he said could not be considered a normal phenomenon.
In the border districts of India, the share of Indian religionists had come down by seven per cent, which he said was very high, while those in Kerala had declined by 12 per cent.
Alarming was the condition of several States of the Northeast, where the Christian population was increasing very fast. Now there are only small pockets, which were dominated by Indian religionists.
After Arunachal Pradesh became a State, there had been a rise in the Christian population. The same was the case with the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, where Christians now constituted 60 per cent of the population, while it was almost negligible before Independence.
RF, IS Akhbar recognized as a central asian or Indian? There is no comparison with the Native Americans and Indian situation. You seemed about as confused as columbus. :)
If Aryans were the dominant people and muslim invaders other dominant force, the numbers of dravidians would be comparible to the native americans. Yet, you have scores of languages, hundreds of dialects, multitudes of colorations, yet they are all INdian. Indian culture adopted whatever came in,changed it and made it Indian. Your response to Ayeshas note above is a perfect example.
And BTW. No one calls people of south Asia "hindus", they are Indians. Hindu is a religion, like muslim..we can make that distinction. Can the mullahs on this board understand that not all pakistanis are muslims?
Know SIPA-- the Institute 
very well eh?
No chip on the shoulder about Prof. Jalal, sheâs a very intelligent lady that ended up in Harvard afterwards. Interestingly you havenât offered up any substantial evidence to the contrary. I understand that India dominates the region and thatâs fine with me. What I am talking about is the inherent pro-India bias in the faculty and many post Docs. Care to tell me the professors you know?
Apparently the pro-Indians couldnt stand the heat when a Pakistani lady was teaching Indian history (oh the horror!). I was involved with SIPA ever since I was a freshman at NYU, so I have seen the bias and KNOW the type of research routinely takes place. Besides I could bever espect you to step up and agree to the bias, what incentive would you have for it?
RF, there is a distinction between religion and culture. In Islam while there might not be a distinction, In the rest of the world there is. They could all become zoroastrian for all I care. AS long as they put India over their religion is what matters.
Take you native Pakistan. It is more and more obvious reading this BB alone that people in Pakistan need to find some identity other than who they are. Preferebly related to their religious past.It is self-loathing at it;s best and can create a lot of unhappy people. :(