Crisis of identity?

Well I have known jagdish Dalal, Phil oldernburgh, Marshal Bouton, Sumit Ganguly as I said earlier..thery were primarily at Columbia and I was invited a few time back in the day to visit. I have been involved for almost 8yrs. Since my fellowship at the Asia Society in NY. It is very easy chanda to go and do a google seach as I said. And as per Jalal, her case was dismissed. 'Nuff said.

Regarding hte Insititute bit, I belive it was started as one. ANyway..that is a small point and If I am wrong you got me there. How will i ever recover :)

**
RF, IS Akhbar recognized as a central asian or Indian? There is no comparison with the Native Americans and Indian situation. You seemed about as confused as columbus. :)
**

Akbar is Indian because he "sold out" or rather devioded his heritage to become Indian. The Native American situation is comparable: Have you visited a reservation? They speak, live and socialize like Anglos. Calling yourself Micheal Shadyfox won't change the fact that your culture has been decimated by the majority.

**
If Aryans were the dominant people and muslim invaders other dominant force, the numbers of dravidians would be comparible to the native americans. Yet, you have scores of languages, hundreds of dialects, multitudes of colorations, yet they are all INdian. Indian culture adopted whatever came in,changed it and made it Indian. Your response to Ayeshas note above is a perfect example.
**

everything has been tainted by the Aryan-Hinduism. Talking about the sheer numbers of Dravidians is not only illogical but also dishonest because the native Americans were miniscule vis a vis the Drtavidian population of South Asia. There were no records of how many Dravidians were murdered either. You can live in the fantasy world of believing everything is Indians, or realize that the majority comes from the terms the Aryans dictated foir your forefathers, so your ignorance stems from the fact that you refuse to believe how Aryans forever changed India by destroying the true past.

**
And BTW. No one calls people of south Asia "hindus", they are Indians. Hindu is a religion, like muslim..we can make that distinction. Can the mullahs on this board understand that not all pakistanis are muslims? **

I am nott referring to Hindu in the derogatory terms you have stated. South Asia has been immensely impacted by the Hinduism of the Aryans. I say Hinduism because the other natives may have been polytheistic but not hindu. For example the Rajputs ancestors were Sun worshippers that the Aryans were forced to induct into the caste system because they knew that the Scythians would not bow down like the Dravidian- Dalits. This is beyond a discussion of contemporary religions. Hinduism is as foriegn to India as Islam.

**
RF, there is a distinction between religion and culture. In Islam while there might not be a distinction, In the rest of the world there is. They could all become zoroastrian for all I care. AS long as they put India over their religion is what matters. **

If they all become Zor. they will certainly change India and FORCE either implicitly or explicitly to be absorded in to the Zor. culture (yes there is an overlap btw culture/religion). For example, the sacredness of the cow, inherently hindu and in Indian culture will be lost.

**
Take you native Pakistan. It is more and more obvious reading this BB alone that people in Pakistan need to find some identity other than who they are. Preferebly related to their religious past.It is self-loathing at it;s best and can create a lot of unhappy people. :( **

What self loathing? Do you read my nick? It is anything but self loathing..ignorance, yes but why should Pakistan bow down to the Aryan culture when the vast majority of it's desecendents are not aryan. The schism is beyond religion, it is racial matter...just like your grandchildren will be asked where their grandfather was from..

**
Well I have known jagdish Dalal, Phil oldernburgh, Marshal Bouton, Sumit Ganguly as I said earlier..thery were primarily at Columbia and I was invited a few time back in the day to visit. I have been involved for almost 8yrs. Since my fellowship at the Asia Society in NY. It is very easy chanda to go and do a google seach as I said. And as per Jalal, her case was dismissed. 'Nuff said.
**

And you don't consider them to be pro-Indian? Why should I take the easy approach when I can dig deeper by going to the original texts, ones without biased interpretations. Do you second hand biases? Jalal's case may have been dismissed (hmm ever think of the judge being a conservative) even then it was "suggestive."
**
Regarding hte Insititute bit, I belive it was started as one. ANyway..that is a small point and If I am wrong you got me there. How will i ever recover :) **

Wow, so you were around to see SIPA being founded in 1946 :) The only reason I picked up on thaat was because you claim to know it so well yet still cannot differentiate between a renowned graduate school and a miniscule institute. It's like me referring to the Alma Mater as Kings College :D

it is other way around . aryans mixed with local people otherwise
we wont be called indians. dark skin predominates india that what gives
our physical identity.if you read vedas you will know initial struggle
between aryans and native people.

Thou, Indra, art the destroyer of all the cities, the slayer of the Dasyus, the prosperer of man, the lord of the sky."
< " Tvam hi shasvatinam Indra daita puram asi
hanta dasyor manor vridhah patir divah " - Sans. >
– RgV.VIII.87.6 ] Muir I.175 ]
" Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu (hosts) sprang from a black womb. "
– RgV. II.20.6 ] Muir I.174 ]
The ancient singer praises the god who “destroyed the Dasyans and protected the Aryan colour.” Rg.V. III.34.9 ] Ann. 114 ] and “the thunderer who bestowed on his white friends the fields, bestowed the sun, bestowed the waters.” Rg.V. I.100.18 ] Ann. 114 ] Numerous are the references to “the black skin” `Krishnam Vacham’ RgV. IX.41.1, Sam.V. I.491, II.242 ] Ann. 114 ] which is mentioned with abhorrence.
Again " stormy gods who rush on like furious bulls and scatter the black skin." RgV.IX.73.5 ]
The singers mention “the black skin, the hated of Indra”, being swept ourtof heaven RgV.IX.73.5 ]
“Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conqured the black skin.” Rg.V. I.130.8 ] Ann.114 ]
The sacrificer poured out thanks to his god for “scattering the slave bands of black descent”, and for stamping out " the vile Dasyan colour." Rg.V. II.20.7, II.12.4 ] Ann. 115 ]
“Black skin is impious” <“Dasam varnam adharam” -Sans.> Rg.V. II.12.4 ] Muir Pt.I, p.43, II, p.284, 323 etc. ] Ann. 114 ff ].
“[Indra] made the impious varNa of the dAsas lower and hidden.” <“* dA’saM va’rNaM a’dharaM gu’hA’kaH” - Sans> RV. II.12.4 ]*

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

Akbar is Indian because he "sold out" or rather devioded his heritage to become Indian. The Native American situation is comparable: Have you visited a reservation? They speak, live and socialize like Anglos. Calling yourself Micheal Shadyfox won't change the fact that your culture has been decimated by the majority.

[/QUOTE]

what do u mean by "devioded his heritage"?

[QUOTE]

everything has been tainted by the Aryan-Hinduism. Talking about the sheer numbers of Dravidians is not only illogical but also dishonest because the native Americans were miniscule vis a vis the Drtavidian population of South Asia. There were no records of how many Dravidians were murdered either. You can live in the fantasy world of believing everything is Indians, or realize that the majority comes from the terms the Aryans dictated foir your forefathers, so your ignorance stems from the fact that you refuse to believe how Aryans forever changed India by destroying the true past.

[/QUOTE]

is it not possible that there was no aryan invasion as u portray? many researchers have debunked the invasion theory. the thing that u mentioned about no records of Dravidian murders can also be taken as there were no murders. why are there no archeological evidences of invasion if one actually took place?

[QUOTE]

I am nott referring to Hindu in the derogatory terms you have stated. South Asia has been immensely impacted by the Hinduism of the Aryans. I say Hinduism because the other natives may have been polytheistic but not hindu. For example the Rajputs ancestors were Sun worshippers that the Aryans were forced to induct into the caste system because they knew that the Scythians would not bow down like the Dravidian- Dalits.
[/QUOTE]

where did u come across all these ideas? i have no knowledge of anything of this sort. (please dont make any comments on my knowledge.) and terming the dravidians as dalits is not right. this is simply not the truth.

[QUOTE]

Hinduism is as foriegn to India as Islam.
[/QUOTE]

may be. but hinduism found a home in india. aryans came to india. the original inhabitants of india assimilated the culture of the aryans and the aryans also assimilated the indigeneous culture.

When populations are in completion for resources whether they are from a self identified group (tribe, clan, nation, religion, ideology) group or not, the interaction depends on many factors.

1) Numerical strength
2) Technology
3) Group identification both ethnicity, culture and ideology
4) Group cohesion

The above-mentioned factors greatly influences as to who gets to “eat and live in better conditions” than the other and has the political, temporal and economic power to sustain this “imbalance” in the long run. Throughout the world we see the same dynamics of nomadic people tested in warfare overrunning sedentary population again and again. Once these “formerly” nomads settle down to enjoy their newfound wealth they are in turn are over by newer hungrier Nomadic groups. This cycle would have continued unabated if not for the advent of modern nation states and industrial revolution.

We have to look at India in this context. Further the cycle of nomadic invasions has taken place over a period of 3000 –3500 years so we have to take peel away many layers of racial, cultural and linguistic layers before we can get to the “truth”. Inspite of the new spin by some Indian and allied foreign “experts”(?) that there is no racial difference between the haves and have not, the rest of the world accepts the following facts

1) There were/was an epochal nomadic invasion that changed the basic racial, linguistic and cultural make up of the Indian sub continent over a period 2000 years. This change is still continuing and is variously known as Sanskritization.

2) Varna system was superimposed on an already existing Jati (guild) tribal, clan divisions with the only purpose of maintaining the political, temporal, and economic superiority of the invading people and maintain the imbalance in consumptions as well as living standards.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *

it is other way around . aryans mixed with local people otherwise
we wont be called indians. dark skin predominates india that what gives
our physical identity.if you read vedas you will know initial struggle
between aryans and native people.

[/QUOTE]

No, dark skin predominates because Aryans DID NOT mix with the Dravidians...If they had, Indians would look a lot more different. In every village of India you can tell an Aryan apart from the rest, why is that? Its because the caste system relegated the dark natives to the bottom while exalting the Aryan progeny. Or if you go to Kashmir you will find pure Aryans..either the Pandits or the Muslim Kashmiris who converted.

**
what do u mean by “devioded his heritage”?
**

Din-e-Elahi..Intermarriage with the Rajputs..Alliances with many rajas. Dont get me wrong, Akbar was a smart man, by coopting Hindus, Rajputs he knew no one would challenge him-- no one did.

**
is it not possible that there was no aryan invasion as u portray? many researchers have debunked the invasion theory. the thing that u mentioned about no records of Dravidian murders can also be taken as there were no murders. why are there no archeological evidences of invasion if one actually took place?
**

Aryans are present in India- yes? Sanskrit is Indo-European- yes? The higher caste Brahmins are more European in appearence- yes? Even if we go by your theory (which does not hold merit except in the most extreme pro-India circles), how did the Aryans acheieve a superior position? There is no doubt that Aryans developed the caste system to make sure the dravidians remained oppressed. Something is still fishy..

**
where did u come across all these ideas? i have no knowledge of anything of this sort. (please dont make any comments on my knowledge.) and terming the dravidians as dalits is not right. this is simply not the truth.
**

I like history and anthropology…I like to do searches on topics that facinate me. Like I told CH earlier, I dont do kiddy google searches for my info.

Are you calling me liar, when I associate Dalits with Dravidians? Read up:

Source: http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/dalit_and_caste.htm

When the Aryans began to spread eastward and southward from Punjab, they spread too thin. Therefore the policy of total annihilation of the Dasyus was found unnecessary as well as impossible. Instead the Dravidians were made domestic and village slaves. In earlier civilisations, slavery or extermination were the only two methods used by most of the conquering races.

Therefore the Dasyus (slaves, now known to us as the Scheduled caste) of the Rig Veda were the Dravidians living north of the Vindhya Satpura range and now enslaved by the invading Aryans. The distinguished indologist Basham says: “In the reduction to bondage of the many dasas captured in the battle, we find the origin of Indian slavery.”

Dont even get me started on Dt. Amedkar :smiley:

**
may be. but hinduism found a home in india. aryans came to india. the original inhabitants of india assimilated the culture of the aryans and the aryans also assimilated the indigeneous culture. **

No! The Aryans SUBJUGATED the Indegenious Dravidians into their Vedic Hinduism. It was not a two way process..The Aryans made the Dravidians SUBMIT to their caste system, in the case of the Scythians, they co-opted them as Rajputs, knowing that taking on a martial race would inevitably weaken the Brahmin stronhold on the Gangetic plain. The tide was reversed by another group of foriegn conqurers, the Muslim Arabs and Turks which rejected the caste system totally. For once the Aryans could not have their way. With converts from Rajput and other non-Aryan communities, along with forign born Arabs/Afghans/Turks the new battle line was drawn…This time it would be between Pakistan and India. It is simply astounding to me that many of you Indians are ignorant of your past…you think that everything was assimilated in a lovey dovey manner when there was always a victor and a vanquished? If Indian had not experienced the onslaught of the Aryans, I can assure you that Pakistan’s relations with Dravidian based India would have been better…after all thats what the creator of India’s constitution believed in :smiley:

**
When populations are in completion for resources whether they are from a self identified group (tribe, clan, nation, religion, ideology) group or not, the interaction depends on many factors.

  1. Numerical strength
  2. Technology
  3. Group identification both ethnicity, culture and ideology
  4. Group cohesion

The above-mentioned factors greatly influences as to who gets to “eat and live in better conditions” than the other and has the political, temporal and economic power to sustain this “imbalance” in the long run. Throughout the world we see the same dynamics of nomadic people tested in warfare overrunning sedentary population again and again. Once these “formerly” nomads settle down to enjoy their newfound wealth they are in turn are over by newer hungrier Nomadic groups. This cycle would have continued unabated if not for the advent of modern nation states and industrial revolution.
**

Agreed. The thesis is accurate.
**
We have to look at India in this context. Further the cycle of nomadic invasions has taken place over a period of 3000 –3500 years so we have to take peel away many layers of racial, cultural and linguistic layers before we can get to the “truth”. Inspite of the new spin by some Indian and allied foreign “experts”(?) that there is no racial difference between the haves and have not, the rest of the world accepts the following facts
**

Regardless of the “have” vs. “have nots” there will always be a dichotomy between Aryans vs. Non-Aryans as long as there is Hinduism.
**

  1. There were/was an epochal nomadic invasion that changed the basic racial, linguistic and cultural make up of the Indian sub continent over a period 2000 years. This change is still continuing and is variously known as Sanskritization.
    **

Pure lies! Sanskrit is dying…are you kidding me? Sanskritization?? The site below talks about “saving” Sanskrit from being a dead language and your telling me theres a process called Sankritization still occuring :hehe:

Source: http://www.samskrita-bharati.org/news/gulfnews031201.html
**
While the once common man’s language becomes no one’s language in India, **Shastry and his team of volunteers have succeeded in making people of three villages, Mattur and Hosahalli in Karnataka and Mohad in Madhya Pradesh, adopt Sanskrit as their language for communication. He also points out that people in some tribal villages of Lahaul and Spiti in Himachal Pradesh talk in a language called Chinali which essentially is Sanskrit.

"India was ruled by foreigners for over 800 years. Before that Sanskrit was the court language all over the country. However, during Mughal rule the language suffered the most as Hinduism itself was under attack. Then the British came with their goal to rule the country and they in a systematic manner tried to kill Sanskrit, the fountainhead of the Indian culture.

While they closed down all Sanskrit schools and started English education, Sanskrit as a language continued to be taught but through a changed grammar-translation method which was both tough and outdated. However, their untiring efforts have started paying off, as the Central Board of Secondary Education has introduced pilot projects in 600 schools across the country where Sanskrit is taught through the communication method while the University Grants Commission has plans of introducing from this summer simple methods of teaching Sanskrit in various colleges.

**
2) Varna system was superimposed on an already existing Jati (guild) tribal, clan divisions with the only purpose of maintaining the political, temporal, and economic superiority of the invading people and maintain the imbalance in consumptions as well as living standards. **

Lies…there is no record of jatis or any other sub castes (In order to have sub castes you need to have a caste system duh!) in the Indus valley or any other Dravidian dominated areas in pre Aryan era. The Aryans are soloey responsible for bringing in the caste system to maintain their high status in India. Varna was/is one of the most racist systems present in the world today, dividing India by race.

Perhaps Pakistan is such an affront to Indians as it is the only part of Bharat that was never subjugated. Pakistanis are:

  • Sindhis & Punjabis: Largely descendents of Scythians..called Rajputs, Jatts, Summas etc.
  • Pashtuns: Afghans whose identity is the cause for much confusion.
  • Baluchis: Originally descended from Aleppo/Mespotemia, of the same stock as the Kurds.
  • Muslims that migrated: Many are of foriegn extraction, as their forefathers came from Central Asia and Middle East to be a part of the Muslim adminstration of India.
  • Others: Here one can find Hindu converts to Islam. In this category one can include Dravidians, and even Aryans..like I said before they constitute a minscule population.

India's main groups are Aryans and Dravidians. The Scythians are predominantly in the areas bordering Pakistan, however their population is miniscule vis a vis India as a whole.

so you accept pakistan' identity mostly comes from ethnicity along with
religen same way iran and afghanistan. indian and bangaldesh muslims
are separate in ethnic identity.

RF, open up a Zagat restaurant guide..under Pakistani food..it says.."see Indian". :)

akbar did not “devoid his heritage”. india was a part of akbar’s heritage. akbar was born and brought up in india. his father and grandfather spent their lives in india. so akbar was not a central asian after all.

FYI brahmins come in all shapes and sizes. the invasion theory is one propogated by western researchers. there is still no proof to suggest an invasion by the aryans and killing of the dravidians by aryans.

there r many such sources as u point out. but dont u get it yet? they r christian proselytical sites. u will get many such sites that disgrace hinduism. the primary aim being to wean away the dalits from hinduism.
true that the caste system has degenerated hinduism. but that is not the fault of the religion. there. there may be scriptures like the Manysmriti. but they r not religious scriptures. they came a long time after the the religion was born.

there is nothing to prove whatever u have said. and about the rajput funda, u have a great superiority complex regarding your caste - may i call it that?

this part is totally hilarious. i cannot but marvel at your imagination.

this article explains the shared history of both countries.

Pakistan, India’s shared history

http://www.dawn.com/2002/01/02/int9.htm

Shared history does not make 2 nations one. If you think than we all in the world have a shared history!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by laeeqkhan: *
Shared history does not make 2 nations one. If you think than we all in the world have a shared history!
[/QUOTE]

you say you are different because of religen even that can be proved
wrong since more muslims live in india. i agree punjabi muslims
are different ethnically from other overwhelming population of

indian and bangaldesh muslims.

another article about crisis of identity

In Pakistan’s case, the leadership crisis was compounded by our identity crisis: created in the name of religion, our leaders deliberately (and foolishly) set out to cut off the country’s subcontinental roots and reposition ourselves as a Middle Eastern nation. This effort was accelerated when East Pakistan became Bangladesh after a bloody civil war. This unnatural shift has wreaked havoc with natural creativity and produced a generation of Pakistanis unsure of their place in the world.

http://www.dawn.com/2003/04/23/op.htm#2

Religion is a complete way of life for us!! That makes a separate nation!

We are proud of what we are. No matter what explanations you guys give, reality cannot be denied.

Paksitan Zindabad!
Muslim ummat Paendabad!

:jhanda:

Please close this thread. !

The point that Pakistanis are a separate nation has been made clear to the Indians. Even Muslims in India are different from the majority Hindus.

Pakistan Zindabad!:jhanda: