[quote]
Originally posted by Pilot25:
**
I actually believe that in order to effective cover a man modestly, you should cover more than that part of the body.
**
[/quote]
Can I humbly ask what's the basis of this belief?
Pilot25, you seem to have the western concept of equality. The equality concept of the holy Quran is different. Actually, you dont have the concept of equality between genders in the Quran. Instead I would assert that there is a concept of justice in Islam and Quran.
Men are told to wear modest clothing, but it is not as strictly imposed on them as on women. If you mean otherwise, I would like that you posted some references.
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~Survival of the smartest~
[quote]
Originally posted by khan_sahib:
** Can I humbly ask what's the basis of this belief?**
[/quote]
Sure.
Living in the west, you'll see many girls (in daily life and in the media) who drool over other parts of a man's body, just as men drool over women. This "drooling" is not just limitied to the area betwen knees and naval.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pilot25:**
To highlight my point, I mentioned that all of the pictures of men, that female members are drooling over in the image forum show more than just the area between the knees and the navel.**
[/quote]
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think again you are calling koran unreasonable!!!
Sure.
…“Living in the west, you’ll see many girls (in daily life and in the media) who drool over other parts of a man’s body, just as men drool over women. This “drooling” is not just limitied to the area betwen knees and naval…”"PILOT
For all concerned,
Mr.Pilot has tendered his RESIGNATION from Islam in a SILVER plate to me on world forum .
:
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"Pilot25
Senior Member
Posts: 983
posted May 26, 2001 10:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by sanam:
Thank god our Allah gave enuff Screw Balls among the non musl;ims to make us look good
Biggthumb:
FYI - How have you been? I missed you
As per usual, you make personal attacks when you have no sensible contribution to the debate in hand.
If this is what it means to be a muslim, you can have my resignation on a silver plate.
It is useless to argue with so called “daheriya”.
There argument is based on what a “dumb blond in bikini & bra ’ tells Mr.pilot about HER sexuality than what is written in Koran for Mr.Pilot.considers himself ‘enlightened scientific logical rational rennaisence man’ unlike us 'stupid,blind faithfull mullahs needing his stupid & foolish worth a dime 2 cents ,to understand IS thinking of what Islam SHOULD be rather than what it is!”
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Woh afsaana jise anjaam tak, laana na ho mumkin
Use ek KHoobsoorat moR dekar, chhoRna achha
[This message has been edited by FYI (edited May 31, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by FYI:
think again you are calling koran unreasonable!!!
Sure.
[/quote]
Are you sure you really want to tell such blatent lies in front of everyone here?
You know very well that what I said was 100% the opposite, of what you accuse me of saying.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pilot25:
When ever I read the Quran, it always seemed to be 100% fair, just and reasonable in every way. However, when other people talk about what it says and base their edicts on them, they seem anything but reasonable.
[/quote]
I said they seem unreasonable. Not the Quran.
I suggest that if you want to peddle any more lies, you also resign from Islam becuase right now you you do not seem to be a shining example.
Like I said in the other thread, (and I repeat myself here for everyone to read), you always resort to half-baked personal attacks when you are unable to express your views on the issue at hand. I would have hoped that since your last reprimand from the moderators, you would have learnt your lesson.
It's hard enough trying to understand your replies without having to put up with your random insults.
[This message has been edited by Pilot25 (edited May 31, 2001).]
My mom once told me
NEVER
EVER
to say
WHY
to the word of Allah and that is final!!!!
Oh come on. There is nothing wrong with trying to improve your understanding of the word of God. Through understanding comes stronger conviction and belief.
When I read Quran, it was only when I was able to discuss it with those around me, that I truly began to understand what it had to say on certain topics, and my strength of belief increased.
When the Prophet(pbuh) spread the word of God, do you think no one ever asked him for clarification or discussed what he said? If taking things on faith is good enough for you, that is your personal choice. There's nothing wrong with it. Similarly, they way I improve my understanding by asking questions is perfectly normal.
However, if it is wrong to ask questions, to discuss and to debate the fundamentals of our religion, why is there a "Religous Forum"... and why are you reading it?
[This message has been edited by Pilot25 (edited May 31, 2001).]
Two types of reasons....
Practical.....and
Spiritual.....
I Don't have time to list them all but
Everybody should do some research and they will find very good, solid facts that why women are covered and not men.
Dear Girl from Quraysh>>>
I fear you might ask
Why two women witness against one man
and why can't women have four husbands against men who are allowed to have four wives.....
Again these are not just Orders by Allah but they have Physical and Spiritual facts behind them
I will be happy if somebody could find something.
[This message has been edited by wasir (edited May 31, 2001).]
makes a face
Is it just me or are some of the replies.....hmmm i think its just me:)
Anyways, in another thread there was a discussion on burqas, and someone questioned why men weren't made to cover themselves from head to toe.
Men and Women are considered equal in Islam.
But they are both different, correct? Physically, psychologically, emotionally men and women are not the same. Therefore, if u treated them both the same, would that truly be equality? In Islam males and females are seen as different but equal. And thus are treated accordingly.
In regards to the following lines,
[quote]
A member stated earlier that the part of a man that should be covered (to avoid temptation) from the opposite sex was between the knees and the navel.
I actually believe that in order to effective cover a man modestly, you should cover more than that part of the body.
[/quote]
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.(24:30)
I agree with you Pilot, in the sense that men also have been told to maintain their modesty, and therefore they should take care to dress themselves in such a manner. But having them cover themselves from 'head to toe' similar to how a woman is instructed to cover herself isn't sensible nor is it necessary.
I don't have time to elaborate, sorry for the shortness but I got organic to study.
We have to realise that these commands are from Allah(swt) and only Allah(swt) can give us reasoning behind His(swt) judgement.
Since there is no text which gives us reasoning behind this particular judgement we can't make up a reason because we do not know why Allah(swt) revealed that ayah.
So to discuss this issue with the reasoning of men are more attracted to women ?? or etc is invalid.
When we discuss any issue in the Qur'an with non-Muslims the discussion should be Does Allah(swt) exist and Is the Qur'an the word of Allah(swt).
Naturally if the basis is proven then everthing from it is true.
I posed this question in the other thread but the hindus completely ignored it. They will run away from such a discussion because they know that we have intellectual proof of the existence of Allah(swt) and that the Qur'an is the word of Allah(swt). Once that is proven their argument just falls apart.
GFQ & othes ,More Info from another muslim site.
There are scientific explanation for many islamic tenents BUT i dont want to go that route nor do i challenge to prove evey islamic edicts on PRESENT scientific Degree of achievements!Psychology of male & female sexsuality does support purdah concept its only question of IJTIDAD what degree we have to adapt to modern times of women in work place & industrialized mechanised Society.Who says Islam is static ,its basic tenents are eternal ,final & unchallenged ,its only obvious technicality of sun rise sunset in both global poles,long iftar period in extreme western hemispheres ,which are new situations which inshallah will be easily sorted ,as long as basic principles of islam is maintained.
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http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/gems/formen10.htm
http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/gems/formen10.htm
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…And what about Muslim men?
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Adapted from an article by : Farheen Hassan
Fearing that I might be thought of as a woman scorned and enraged with female angst while feminist ideals run wild through my head, I just want to clear up that I am a practicing Muslimah who wears hijab and Alhamdulillah have recently started wearing jalbab. I have written the following article to set fire to the double standard prejudices that exist in our Ummah. Numerous articles have been written by our Muslim brothers outlining the guidelines that women must adhere to but not many about how men should behave. Many have forgotten that Allah (swt) is not going to decide our punishment based on our gender. "These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement" (4:13-14).
The word “awrah” denotes those parts of the body which Islam requires to be covered in front of others whether of the same or the opposite gender. The Prophet (saw) said, “A man should not look at the awrah of another man, nor a woman of a woman, nor should a man go under one cloth with another man, nor a woman with another woman” (Muslim, Abu Dawud, and Al-Tirmidhi). The awrah of a man referred to in this hadith is from his naval to his knee. In comparison, with respect to a man who is not her mehram, a woman’s awrah is her entire body except her face and hands. Many brothers forget that they even have an awrah too, especially during the summer months. What is somewhat amusing is that there are mothers who wear hijab but let their grown sons walk around with their awrah showing in front of non-mahrem women.
Allah (swt) has commanded the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their sexual parts. “Tell the believing men that they should lower their gazes and guard their sexual organs; that is purer for them. Indeed Allah is well-acquainted with what they do” (24:30). Here “lowering of the gazes” means to avert the eyes from the faces of the passersby and not to caress the attractive features of women with the eyes. The Prophet (saw) told Ali ibn Abu Talib, “Ali do not let a second look follow the first. The first look is allowed to you but not the second” (Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Al-Tirmidhi). It is the reasonableness of the Shari’ah that a glance which accidentally falls on something which it is not permissible to see is forgiven. Jabir ibn Abdullah narrated, “I asked the Messenger of Allah (saw) about the unexpected glance. He replied, `Avert your eyes,’ meaning, do not look back deliberately” (Ahmad, Abu Dawud, Muslim, and Al-Tirmidhi).
The Prophet (saw) considered hungry and lustful looks at a person of the opposite gender as “the zina of the eye,” according to his saying, “The eyes also commit zina, and their zina is the lustful look” (Al-Bukhari). He termed the lustful look zina because it gives sexual pleasure and gratification in an unlawful way. I have been informed by numerous brothers that it is much harder for them to avert their eyes because there are a multitude uncovered women walking around and they do not want the women to perceive them as being rude. Do I need to
remind these brothers that Islam is submission to Allah (swt) and not to the world or to the feelings of others? Looking the other way is not nearly as hard as having to wear at least two layers of big clothing with a hijab on your head, and don’t forget socks on your feet, while waiting underground for the subway to show up as there are record high temperatures being set up above on the sidewalk. I do not know about the other sisters, but what keeps me going is the thought that no matter how hot this world gets, Hell will always be hotter; similarly, no matter how hot some girl is, Hell will always be hotter.
Many brothers need to examine their way of talking. In order to feel more masculine, brothers will resort to using foul language. Cursing does not disillusion the listener into thinking that the cursing guy is a macho. The Prophet was not one who would abuse (others) or say obscene words, or curse (others), and if he wanted to admonish any one of us, he used to say: “What is wrong with him, his forehead be dusted!” (Sahih Al-Bukhari) Also, in order to blow up their already oversized egos in front of friends some brothers will accuse girls of “liking” them. Are these brothers unaware that falsely accusing a chaste girl of anything, implied explicitly or not, whether she is Muslim or not, is haram?
“Why then, did not the believers, men and women, when you heard it (the slander) think good of their own people and say: “This (charge) is an obvious lie?”
Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they (the slanderers) have not produced witnesses then with Allâh they are the liars” (Surah Nur, 12-13).
Often such allegations are rumors based on ridiculous reasoning and in many cases just a figment of the brother’s imagination or worse, just to pass their times amongst their peers.
What is haram to look at is also of course haram to touch with the hands or any other parts of the body. Ma’qal ibn Yasar narrated that the Prophet (saw) said, “It is better for one of you to be pricked in the head with an iron pick than to touch a woman whom it is unlawful to touch” (Al-Bayhaqi). Some brothers feel embarrassed to refuse a woman’s hand when she offers it to them. Funny how the brother feels ashamed of not being able to sin in front of his peers but has no embarrassment of sinning in front of Allah (swt). Many leaders of the so-called Islamic/Muslim countries, have been observed to be having no qualms about shaking hands with the leaders or dignitaries of opposite sex.
Islam has been here for over 1400 years and it has been unchanged. It is up to each of us to realize that Islam does not have to conform to our “modern” time or our personal beliefs, but rather we have to conform to it. Islam means complete submission to Allah (swt); either accept all of it or reject all of it. As a new convert said, “You call yourself a Muslim, but you don’t follow all of Islam? Just drop the title.”
My apologies to all who I may have offended; that was not the intent of the article. Anything good in this article came from Allah’s (swt) generosity on me for guiding me on the right path and anything bad came from my own ignorance.
*~*Allah (swt) gives and forgives, yet man gets and forgets * Why do mere mortals put a question mark where Almighty Allah (swt) has put a period? * ~
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Woh afsaana jise anjaam tak, laana na ho mumkin
Use ek KHoobsoorat moR dekar, chhoRna achha
[This message has been edited by FYI (edited May 31, 2001).]
Girl from Quraysh,
As you have rightfullay said, Islam primarily declares that men and women are equal as human beings. This is the declaration of the Almighty, after which no other declaration is needed. Now what is left is not determining whether men and women are equal, but to determine the various responsibilities of the male and the female gender. Because the determination of responsibilities must take into account the varying natural inclinations and capabilities of the individuals, therefore, in this determination Islam takes into account the concept of “justice”, rather than “equality”. The problem with some groups of Muslims, generally is that they do not try to understand the concept presented by the Qur’an. The fault is that Muslims try to implement a different concept, which has a special context and history, to their situation which has a totally different context. In Islam women are already considered as equal human beings, who have their own separate identity.
After this explanation let me answer your question. It may be a cultural and not Islamic concept that women have to wrap their selves up totally. The verse which is presented as an argument for covering from head to toe, that is verse 59 of Surah Al-Ahzaab, was actually related to distinguishing free women from slave girls under specific social circumstances. It is not general in its address. The other verse, which is sometimes presented as an argument for covering up women is the verse 53 of the same Surah and is actually explicitly restricted to the wives of the Prophet (pbuh). The only verse which is related to the etiquette of interaction between men and women is verse 31 of Surah Al-Noor. This verse only directs women to dress up decently and to cover their chests with their head coverings when they are to interact with men, other than prescribed relations called Mehram.
It is also wrong to assume that men do not have any restrictions on their clothing when interacting with women. The referred verse of Surah Al-Noor also directs men to observe decent clothing when interacting with women.
For example, God has made hair an adornment for women. However, God in His infinite wisdom has directed women [as well as men] to avoid flaunting their respective adornments and to attract members of the other sex for the well being of the individual – in this world and the hereafter – as well as the society in general. Finally, men and women can attend mixed parties and gatherings, while observing the injunctions of Al-Noor 24: 30 – 31).
However, please keep in mind that the “head covering” mentioned in the referred verse of Surah Al-Noor, which a woman should spread over her chest while interacting with men, is not necessarily the one which is called “Hijab” these days. It can be any adaptation of the dress of women living in their respective cultural contexts. Islam has not prescribed a special style or form of clothing.
I hope this helps.
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
[quote]
Originally posted by wasir:
**Two types of reasons....
Practical.....and
Spiritual.....
I Don't have time to list them all but
Everybody should do some research and they will find very good, solid facts that why women are covered and not men.
Dear Girl from Quraysh>>>
I fear you might ask
Why two women witness against one man
and why can't women have four husbands against men who are allowed to have four wives.....
Again these are not just Orders by Allah but they have Physical and Spiritual facts behind them
I will be happy if somebody could find something.
[This message has been edited by wasir (edited May 31, 2001).]**
[/quote]
**Yes, why shouldn't women marry 4 men?
Why shouldn't there be two men against a woman?
Why shouldn't men wear clothes covering from head to toe?
GFQ, way to go! Think outside the box!!
**
Cover a man from head to toe and he'll be tripping all over the place, breaking his damn nose every day. LOL, just a thought, imagine Taliban men covered head to toe !
kumarkan,wasir,
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I am in no way questioning these practices. I posted the question (which was posed by another member), in an attempt to clarify the confusion,etc in regards to this issue. Thats all.
As a matter of fact, you should question these practices. I found following ayats in quran regarding dress code of women in Islam:
7:26, 24:31, 33:59
These ayats in a nutshell establish the fact that as a woman you have to cover your bossoms and the dress should be long. No where in quran have I found anything about covering your head, hair, hands etc. Those are all rituals which existed long before Quran and were adopted (wrongfully) by the next generations.
Punjabi Kurhi
Actually Amy, I understand the basis and reasoning behind these practices, I don't feel a need to question them-they make sense to me.
[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**Actually Amy, I understand the basis and reasoning behind these practices, I don't feel a need to question them-they make sense to me.
**
[/quote]
Good for you, that's one more point for you to get you to Jannat.
Punjabi Kurhi
[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**Actually Amy, I understand the basis and reasoning behind these practices, I don't feel a need to question them-they make sense to me.
**
[/quote]
Another lost mind! Sigh!!
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
** Another lost mind! Sigh!!**
[/quote]
Have you ever questioned a man with monkey head? Have you ever questioned a man with an elephant head? Have you ever questioned a god with more then 2 arms/legs and heads?
I think it’s extraordinarily ridiculous to believe in gods that look like some characters from some famous comic books, because covering your self is a sign of civility and believing in mutants as gods is stupidity dont you think?
Now tell me who is lost?
[This message has been edited by ~Mickey~ (edited June 07, 2001).]