Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Oh GOD I married my first cousin, I am so paindoo, out dated and my husband is probably a barbarian!
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
JustSilly,
How can you so confidently say that cousin marriages are not historically relevant? The US is the only western country that does not allow cousin marriage and even then it is allowed in about half of the states. It's legal in Canada, Europe, Mexico and other parts of the world. Let's allot some numbers to your scientific frowning upon, eh? According to the National Society of Genetic Councilors, cousin couples have only a 4-7% chance of having kids with birth defects from a baseline of 3-4 % risk in non-cousin couples. It's not a dramatic leap and neither type of couples/marriage comes with a 100% guarantee.
RV, you're not taking into account the fact that many families have been practising cousin marriages for generations, not just as a one-off thing..
Yes, the risk is still quite low for one pair of cousins who marry but that risk obviously multiplies the more times it happens and those statistics which the OP linked to are the consequences of that..
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
RV, you're not taking into account the fact that many families have been practising cousin marriages for generations, not just as a one-off thing..
Yes, the risk is still quite low for one pair of cousins who marry but that risk obviously multiplies the more times it happens and those statistics which the OP linked to are the consequences of that..
Deeba, What makes you think I'm not already aware that some families practice consanguineous marriages for generations and it does lead to birth deffects? Often in these families, cousin marriages are treated like a rule, they are imposed. Nowhere have I said that cousin marriages are risk-free. I have even acknowledged that Islam encourages marriage outside the family. I am not even advocating cousin marriages in general or over non-cousin marriages. I do believe that negative news tends to become more sensationalized/hyped and people will focus heavily on that while it does not always reflect the actual statistics. In one place I had read that when the correct information about the actual percentage of risks with cousin marriages had come out in Europe ( and this was following the release of news discouraging such marriages) the news didn't catch on in the US...so the latter stuck to the former beliefs. I don't know how true this is.....urban legends/negative news tends to spread faster among people and settles in quite stubbornly. But it's one theory among others that I've read. Everyone is entitled to their preferences, but it can be done without looking down on others....without making sweeping generalizations about their upbringing/character.
Deeba, every culture/country has its share of issues....even the western ones despite their "superpowers of the world" status. They, too, are dealing with societal problems on a more smaller scale or national level etc......and then they also have issues that don't place them in the most positive light at an international level. I know that in general turning a blind eye to issues hinders improvement. But at the same time, only the bad/negative news......or dilemmas shouldn't always or often be the focus. There is much good/beauty/richness despite the bad.....within Pakistan, within Muslims, or our people....or "our region" of the world....that can be discussed (online and otherwise).
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Where have I mentioned people’s upbringing or character in this thread?
If I’m saying marrying cousins over and over again has negative consequences not sure how that’s looking down on people 
The figures you’ve mentioned (the low risks) don’t correlate to the reality which the OP has posted on the very first page.. It’s fine saying there’s ‘only’ a 6 or 7% chance of problems with one instance of cousin marriage (which is still low but roughly double what it would otherwise be and strange that that’s not considered a big deal culturally but having kids at 40 is considered risky when both carry a similar risk.. That’s what I’d call cultural bias). The figures in places like Bradford in the UK (I mention Bradford in particular because a large scale study took place there recently) show the true picture of marriages within the family over and over again..
I’m happy to talk about the problems in the West or more specifically the UK and I have done in lots of posts on GS.. Not sure what the point of your last paragraph is.. Fair enough this issue is culturally sensitive but at the same time there’s no point pretending it’s not a serious issue when the actual stats speak for themselves..
From OP’s link on the first page:
Sadly, the facts speak for themselves. **British Pakistanis, half of whom marry a first cousin (a figure that is universally agreed), are 13 times more likely to produce children with genetic disorders than the general population, according to Government-sponsored research.
One in ten children from these cousin marriages either dies in infancy or develops a serious life-threatening disability.** **While British Pakistanis account for three per cent of the births in this country, they are responsible for 33 per cent of the 15,000 to 20,000 children born each year with genetic defects.
**
The vast majority of problems are caused by recessive gene disorders, according to London’s Genetic Interest Group, which advises affected families. Everyone carries some abnormal genes, but most people don’t have a defect because the normal gene overrules the abnormal one. But if a husband and wife both have an abnormal recessive gene, they have a one in four chance of producing a child with defects. One in ten children from these cousin marriages either dies in infancy or develops a serious life-threatening disability. These include blindness, deafness, blood ailments such as sickle cell anaemia, heart or kidney failure, lung or liver problems and myriad complex neurological or brain disorders. Even their healthy children have a one in four chance of being a carrier of a defect, with terrible implications for the next generation.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
aha.......so its the genetics which cause UK pakistanis to be the way they are!!!!!!
That explains it...
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
^No, it's the UK paani.
Deeba, I didn't say you were looking down on cousin marriages. I said that as a general statement...after reading justbilli's response. Also, I've read an article on the Bradford plight and it stated that the families of Bradford have been practicing inbreeding for generations. To apply this situation as a "rule" to every single case or person...even one who's family has not practiced generations of cousin marriages...is unreasonable. I understand that in some families this practice is imposed...and maybe for this reason along with the reason to expand social ties....non-cousin marriages are more encouraged in Islam. But people do fall for their cousins...and Islam has made an outlet for them by making such marriages jaaiz. The allowance shouldn't be treated as an imposition...and at the same one extreme situation shouldn't be applied as rule to every case.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Nay times infinity.
Honestly, why is this even a debate?
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
^No, it's the UK paani.
Can't be..... 3% births and 33% of disabilities....... paani hota to it should've been directly proportional.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
The reason the number of children born with disabilities among cousin couples is higher here in the UK may be because of the community being discussed. The community being described in the article (in Bradford) is primarily mirpuri, and they seem to practice cousin marriage more often than other communities. In many such families, cousin marriage is almost the default and there are multiple generations of cousins marrying cousins (i.e. grandparents were cousins, parents were cousins, couple are cousins and couple's children will marry cousins), which increases the probability of birth defects. While the increased chance of birth defects is not as exponentially high as some people would make it out to be (I've heard people claim it's as high as 60%, which, as a medical professional, I know is blatantly untrue), it is bound to be a bit higher than in communities where cousin marriage is not practiced generation after generation and is more interspersed with marriage outside of the family.
Note: The article being referenced comes from the Daily Mail, a newspaper which here in the UK has a reputation of being quite sensationalist and rather right wing. It also has a reputation for particularly sensationalising stories/issues dealing with immigrant communities. A few months back, there was an article claiming that over 80% of the Somali immigrant community is unemployed and living on benefit. This claim has since been refuted by a couple of sources, which found that the figure is actually approximately 40%, which although still alarmingly higher than other communities, was nowhere in the vicinity of 80% or above. Furthermore, I think people should take the exact numbers quoted in the article with a grain of salt.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Nay it's gross
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
im gonna have to say nay on this one. my distant cousins do this cousin marriage thingy. everyone has to marry a cousin; and not just cousin, it has to be a first cousin. everyone in the family looks exactly the same. same eyes, same nose, same smile. its too much...
none of my first cousins married into the family save for one. my cousin married a second cousin (his moms first cousins daughter) and for some very odd reason, the guy and girl look alarmingly alike. we can't tell if their kids look like their mom or dad!
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
I am not likening this to child abuse or slavery or female infanticide, however, the mere existence of a dated practice does not condone it.
Please re-read what I stated. That was the original purpose at the time this was initially permitted.
There is also a site for people who would like to marry their cats. The “goray” you refer to as treated as incestuous.
The slight risk comment is way off. Please source that if you are to make a statement like that. The numbers are not slight. The risk of recessive gene adoption is double. 90 children die per year in the UK and Wales alone due to birth defects where the marriage is amongst cousins.
Unfortunately, everyone you site as a glowing example of successful marriages is now dead and if you dig a little deeper, you will note how these examples couldn’t be further from being successful cousin marriages:
Einstein was married to someone else and had an affair with his cousin which led to his divorce. In his memoirs, he notes that his affair was one of necessity, and not love, i.e. to satisfy his physical needs. He lusted after his cousin, broke her and his marriage and when they were forced to stay married, they lived as brother and sister and produced no children.
Charles Darwin suffered from multiple long term illnesses which made his life unbearable. He and his wife (cousin) lost had 10 children, 3 of which died of similar illnesses.
Franklin Roosevelt wife and cousin, Eleanor Roosevelt’s wife is probably the worst of the examples. Eleanor was in a long term relationship with a woman, while the President was having a long term affair with his secretary. They were both forced to remain married for political reasons and it is a known fact that their “marriage” was one of convenience and in name only.
There are volumes and volumes of books written about Poe’s marriage to his 13 year old cousin. Many historians believe that they lived as brother and sister. She died 2 years after the marriage and he even considered applying for an annulment vs a divorce as the marriage was never consummated.
Sorry, but you happened to give examples of exactly why cousin marriages are not acceptable. (Also, I am a history minor, however, you do not need to be one in order to confirm the above very easily.)
I don’t see twerking to be the source of illness and death, unless you are talking about the collective IQ of the people in the room where it took place. I don’t see how your point about prevention is barbaric. We are not talking about prohibiting dying children from accessing medicine, we are talking about attempting to prevent complications with children.
My soon to be husband is not my cousin. My male cousins treat me with the same respect as they do their sisters. I am not going to dignify the rest with a response as you clearly are personalizing my comments.
I stated a fact. I believe it is barbaric as I view it no different than incest. Those are my beliefs.
Once again, you missed the point. I think that clinging onto to a practice that the remainder of the world increasingly deems as unacceptable and then the complete rejection of the notion that the world deems it unacceptable is one of the many, many reasons that Pakistan does not progress. I also believe that using faith to hide behind these practices and the inability to see another’s point of view without feeling threatened is why Pakistan lags behind.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Yes, cousin marriages translate indefinitely into extramarital affairs, illnesses, homosexuality, failure to get laid, early deaths…oh and let’s throw in unemployment, depression, demonic possession, and diarrhea for good measure too. Yes, everyone who marries their cousin will without a doubt meet such a fate. Cousin marriages are only done for convenience and they will all be doomed. Please also list examples of dysfunctional non-cousin marriages among famous people for us as a warning too. Surely non-cousin marriages make up the majority of marriages…right? Going by your logic…nobody should marry anyone…cousin or otherwise. But pffft…it’s all good…cuz marriage as an institution is fast becoming historically irrelevant…if it isn’t already. :k:
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
The slight risk comment is way off. Please source that if you are to make a statement like that. The numbers are not slight. The risk of recessive gene adoption is double. 90 children die per year **in the UK and Wales **alone due to birth defects where the marriage is amongst cousins.
The reason why the number is so high here in the UK, is because of the community that is usually referenced in these studies. Most reference the muslim community in Bradford and surrounding areas, which is primarily mirpuri. (I'm not sure why this is but Pakistani communities in Bradford and other areas up north seem to be predominantly mirpuri, while communities in London and southern areas are more varied). Mirpuri's seem to practice cousin marriages much more often than other communities and for several generations in a row. In some families, the grandparents were cousins, the parents were cousins, the couple themselves are cousins and the couple plan marry their children to cousins. This significantly (although not as much as people assume) increases the risk of birth defects and makes it higher than in communities who do not practice cousin marriage generation after generation and is more mixed with marriage outside the family. For this reason, the Bradford statistic for birth defects is a bit skewed and cannot be applied to other communities where cousin marriage is not practiced as often.
Personally, I'm not keen on cousin marriages and think people should look outside of the family first. My family doesn't practise cousin marriage and most of us cousins are in the same age group, went to school together since childhood and were raised to view each other as siblings. This has GREATLY impacted how I view my cousins and my point of view on this matter. However, not everyone's experience is the same and we must take into account that this is not the case for everyone and that some people may have had a drastically different upbringing. Their upbringing will influence their decision on this matter and we should not be so judgemental.
I agree that the examples people have used in support of cousin marriage are all skewed in some way, especially Edgar Allen Poe (who was also an alcoholic and opium addict). They were considered anomalies in their time and are not analogous to the practice being discussed here and are not very good examples.
I also agree with you that hiding behind faith and the inability to see another's point of view without getting defensive is a major factor in why Pakistan and quite frankly, my own country (Afghanistan), lag behind. However, I believe that when addressing this lack of critical thinking and working to change it, there are much more important and life threatening issues that should take precedence and require action more much urgently than cousin marriage.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
I’d appreciate if you would give me more credit than that. My point is if you wonder why the west frowns upon it, the examples you cited are the very examples are used against it.
I don’t know why we can’t agree to disagree without hostility. Give peace a chance.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Thank you. It is nice to not be picked on this forum.
You are correct about the Bradford study. My only annotation to that would be, particularly in Pakistani families, cousin marriages have been typically generational. Further, their findings are consistent with other research.
An interesting fact about Darwin, he had fears that three of his 10 children would died due to issues stemming from his marriage. His paranoia of this made him log, in excruciating detail, the healths of his children and he filled volumes and volumes of books doing so. (He was very ill himself for the majority of his life.) He did not even know about genes then.
Genetic researchers at Ohio State, Johns Hopkins and Santiago de Compostela in Spain looked at his findings and studied not only his offspring but grandchildren as well. The group at SDS also looked at the affects of cousin marriages in the Spanish Harrisburg Dynasty. Their results were very similar to that of the Bradford study.
The conclusion was there was a significantly higher risk of illness and recessive genes being passed, higher susceptibility to infectious diseases, and a higher likelihood of infertility. Study: Darwin Was Right To Worry That Marriage To His Cousin Affected His Offspring
I understand that part of the failure to discuss this matter is because discussing illness is also taboo, however, one only needs to look around at look at the astonishing high percentage of Pakistanis with bipolar disorder in generations of families to understand this.
I don’t believe I’ve passed judgement on anyone else’s marriage. I share the same view as you - my cousins are my brothers - and therefore would view this as incest. However, I don’t think people in such marriages are barbaric. I would find it barbaric. The rejection of the science behind it only makes it worse.
I think this is an important issue to understand as Pakistan is greatly misunderstood in the West and this is one of the many, many reasons why. Also, it involves the health of our children. So I do see it as life threatening on both fronts. I don’t expect people to change - that is a personal decision. But I would hope that by discussing matters like this on forums, at least there can be an appreciation of different points of view.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Thank you. It is nice to not be picked on this forum.
You are correct about the Bradford study. My only annotation to that would be, particularly in Pakistani families, cousin marriages have been typically generational. Further, their findings are consistent with other research.
That's quite interesting. I wasn't aware that cousin marriages in Pakistani families were typically generational. I have a couple of Pakistani acquaintances who married cousins (although, in both cases, the cousins in question were 3rd or 4th cousins and quite distantly related). Both of them were the only people in their generation who married cousins. Most of their family members seem to follow this pattern and cousin marriage in their families is definitely not generational, but more of a scattered occurrence. I assumed most families were this way (with the exception of the mirpuri community). You learn something new every day. :)
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Mezhgan, those stats were published in the Daily Mail (as well as centre and left leaning papers such as the Guardian and the Independent) but the numbers actually came from a study called ‘Born in Bradford’ carried out by the** NHS**..
You’re right tho in saying they are the result of generations of cousin marriage.. Similar studies in other parts of the world have shown an increased risk of defects as well..
From Al Jazeera:
Research from 2008 shows that marriage between cousins in the US, Europe, Russia and Australia is less than one per cent. In countries such as Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, more than half of the population marry a spouse who is considered a relative. Some of these countries and a number of African and Asian countries have the world’s highest rates of birth defects - up to 69 cases in every thousand people.
Some experts say the real figure is much higher. Like its Gulf neighbours, Qatar has now made pre-marital medical tests mandatory.
Source: Intermarriage worries Gulf states - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
So the Arabs have acknowledged it as well..
To say ‘Islam allows it’ and then carry on doing it again and again without thinking is ridiculous.. Islam allows misyar marriage (or mutah if you’re Shia) so does that mean I should go and sleep with 100 men one after another.. you know because technically ‘it’s allowed’..
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Well said! I posted some other studies too - Darwin, Ohio State, Johns Hopkins and SDC.
Re: Cousin marriages- yay or nay in this day and age.
Thank you for pointing out the source of the Bradford study. I wasn’t aware of who exactly had carried it out. The fact that it was in the Daily Mail had previously cast a shadow of doubt (in my opinion) because I don’t give the Daily Mail much credit as a result of their often sensationalised stories (and irritating fixation on Courtney Stodden, Heidi Montagn and other so-called “celebrities”). The story may have also appeared in the Guardian, the Independent and the like but, to be honest, I don’t read many English-language newspapers (most of the major newspapers I read are Danish language newspapers) and probably missed it.
I wasn’t suggesting that cousin marriages don’t result in birth defects, but rather that birth defects are much more likely and more pronounced after generations of cousin marriages as is the case some some communities.