its not easy being a muslim, the name alone is not enough. i rarely hear of any 'jahannum', 'dozakh' talk these days. thats going the christianity route where the general public are not warned about any possible punishments for sin. the more loafer type 'muslims' are talking more of their infidelity then of anything swaabi almost unknowing of its significance. the reason for this, i believe, is the lack of islamic etiquette. the void of missing prayers, worship and goodwill is replaced by pride and biggotry.
education, protocol and procedures are the answer. in general muslim people are not seeing enough examples of good muslim living. the daily routine, the respect for the other gender, sincerety are all missing from many peoples daily lives.
this issue, if delved into deeper, could be described as a monumental debate for the people of pakistan but which way will they go? either way its a revolution in the making, a directional choice.
regarding this incident in fata i personally, without national debate, consensus and agreement, wouldnt trust a tribal jirga to decide such matters. fata is long past its due date for incoperation with the rest of pakistan including laws. pakistan for its part should investigate its direction and encourage the islamic path, so not to allow anyone to feel they are more 'islamic' then the state.
Islam doesn't allow people to be stoned without a proof of the act being comitted. This is a complete mockery of Islamic Laws by self declared "Moral" Police.
There must have been a reason behind it, Islam has all the answers for everything. Nothing is wrong in following Sharia
a) is stoning an islamic punishement? please provide proof.
b) are these tribal jirga people even qualified in islamic terms to even sit on such tribunals? the accuracy of investigations comes after that.
from my limited knowledge there is nothing in Quran that mentions stoning as a punishment, it mentions flogging, there is however a different book that talks about stoning as a punishment for adultery.
You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You shall stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt out of the land of slavery.—Deuteronomy(13:9-10)Quran has this to say on the topic.
24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
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24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
[/QUOTE]
a) is stoning an islamic punishement? please provide proof.
Chalo stoning na sahi.. what about beheading, eye-for-an-eye, cutting of limbs for theft, flogging etc.... do you support Islamic punishments, or not? Simple question... should have a simple answer. Yes or no. Right? :)
Tthis thread was talking about stoning that some have been proclaiming as an islamic punishment while you cant find anything in Quran that suggests it. so lets start with this, stoning is not an islamic punishment and thus your previous post is without any merit.
so speaking of simple questions, is stoning an islamic punishment, ...yes or no. Right? :)
Hint- pick 'no'.
what about beheading, eye-for-an-eye, cutting of limbs for theft, flogging etc.... do you support Islamic punishments, or not? Simple question... should have a simple answer. Yes or no. Right? :)
If the rest of the functions of the islamic state are being fulfilled, then yes.
You simply can not have an oppressive state which suppresses ppl, bleeds them dry, and when soemone steals a loaf of bread to feed her family that you chop off her hand. you can not do a half ass job of providing what an islamic state has to provide, but only focus on punishments.
and in the end, Allah is not just Qahaar and Jabbar, but Rehman and Raheem and mghfoor and Kareem. why cant humans be the same way?
My basic question remains the same. You can nitpick all you want. Most of us, myself included, are so enamored by the secular and un-Islamic values that the docile prison system is as far as our minds go. Someone commits a crime, fine him or put him in prison. We want humane punishments for crimes.
Capital punishment?? Oh my God!
Cutting limbs?? You must be crazy.
Flogging someone?? This is torture.
We all know that Quran (and Islam by way of sharia) prescribed certain punishments for certain crimes. Capital punishment is very much part of Islam. Cutting limbs is the punishment for thiefs, so on and so forth.
Former Prime Minister of Pakistan, now dead, Benazir Bhutto, once made the statement that beheading people is a barbaric punishment and should be abolished completely. This created a huge firestorm in Pakistan that the lady has commited blasphemy against Islamic punishments.
So, my question to all the readers here is simple... do you support Islamic punishments or not?
Once we get past this point, then we can talk about what is the best way to ensure "crimes" are properly investigated and innocent people are not penalized by the system.
The question is not designed to "get" you. This is an honest and simple discussion on a very contemporary topic. A topic that raises its head every now and then. You can side-step and duck the question now, because it may make you uncomfortable to answer it or say "I don't think these kinds of Arabian-tribal-style Islamic punishments have any place in modern society", but the fact of the matter is that there are many muslims, who if they think about it, will say exactly that.
Its not a question of getting me or not, I gave you my opinion. The answer remains the same..if you are saying dont pick and choose then we have to look at the whole picture as well. u cant pick and choose and have islamic punishments handed out by state but the state failing to do its duties as an islamic state should.
If the rest of the functions of the islamic state are being fulfilled, then yes. You simply can not have an oppressive state which suppresses ppl, bleeds them dry, and when soemone steals a loaf of bread to feed her family that you chop off her hand. you can not do a half ass job of providing what an islamic state has to provide, but only focus on punishments.
and in the end, Allah is not just Qahaar and Jabbar, but Rehman and Raheem and mghfoor and Kareem. why cant humans be the same way?
If the rest of the functions of the islamic state are being fulfilled, then yes.
So, with all these caveats, your answer is "yes". Presumably this yes is that you support Islamic punishments, which in many cases is not merely a fine or a prison sentence, but physical punishment - flogging, cutting of limbs or beheading/capital punishment.
I agree with you that an Islamic state has to fulfill its responsibilities to its citizens before it can turn around and impose strict penalties for crimes. That argument works fine for those convicted of theft and crimes of desperation. But how does that protect someone convicted of adultery? I can think of some more philosphical arguments to answer that but I want to see where others are in their thought process here.
Like in the case of Arab states, the moment you implement Capital punishment, strict sharia code, people will automatically start contributing to the society. Like in Zia's time, everything worked as per schedule, Pakistan grew at an impressive rate. The reason greatest discoveries like Hadees, Koran, Islam came from the arab states is because they had strict laws since early days and India gave paan and gobar to the world.
^ I am not sure if the above post is tongue-in-cheek or serious. In Zia's time, everything worked as per schedule? Wow! thats news to most people. But, anyway, I don't think merely implementing capital punishment and strict sharia penal code is the be-all and end-all answer to all our woes. There are many things that need to be fixed. Merely punishing people can not even be a good start, let alone the catalyst.
^ Bhai saab,religion is most important of Pakistani life- unless we implement it fully, we can't achieve what Quaid wanted us to achieve. A fully implement sharia will purify our hearts and make us do our duty like namaz, zakat, umrah etc. we don't want our citizens to become depressed/overworked or frustrated like the citizens of the west or confused like India's. Things were proper, advanced and working during Prophet(pbuh)'s time and we have to bring back that time in Pakistan. Inshallah- too much of materialistic progress gives rise to depression, violence(like school shootings) and other evils.
^ This is going to be a long discussion.... oh well... How do you know that Quaid e Azam wanted Pakistan to have a fully implemented sharia law? We do know that Quaid wanted muslims of India to have a separate homeland where they will be free to live their life as they choose. Ironically, muslim religious leaders at that time bitterly opposed creation of Pakistan. So to leapfrog to a conclusion that Quaid wanted sharia implemented in Pakistan may be a leap of faith. It may be a dream for many, like you, and I think its a perfectly fine aspiration, but lets not drag Quaid into this discussion.
^ This is going to be a long discussion.... oh well... How do you know that Quaid e Azam wanted Pakistan to have a fully implemented sharia law? We do know that Quaid wanted muslims of India to have a separate homeland where they will be free to live their life as they choose. Ironically, muslim religious leaders at that time bitterly opposed creation of Pakistan. So to leapfrog to a conclusion that Quaid wanted sharia implemented in Pakistan may be a leap of faith. It may be a dream for many, like you, and I think its a perfectly fine aspiration, but lets not drag Quaid into this discussion.
Okay you said Quaid wanted an Islamic state- how can an Islamic state exist without Islamic laws like Sharia? How can an Islamic state survive without strict obedience to the Koran and Al-sunnah? Islam teaches simplicity and humbleness and we Pakistanis are busy imitating the western work culture and are confused from top to bottom. Pakistan must recall all its citizens from abroad, cut contacts from the rest of the world and re-build itself following the strict Islamic values... that way, we will be fulfiling Quaid's grand dream of Islamic empire.
. Pakistan must recall all its citizens from abroad, cut contacts from the rest of the world and re-build itself following the strict Islamic values... .
Okay you said Quaid wanted an Islamic state- how can an Islamic state exist without Islamic laws like Sharia?
I did not say "Quaid wanted an Islamic state". What I said was "Quaid wanted muslims of India to have a separate homeland where they will be free to live their life as they choose". You automatically, and perhaps incorrectly assume that it means sharia laws etc. May be true. May be not true. Quaid is no longer with us to explain whether he wanted sharia law, anyway. Plus with so many sects, and so many variants of sharia law, it is impossible to decide which sharia law exactly are you talking about.
Re: the rest of your post about recalling Pakistani citizens from abroad and "Quaid's grand dream of Islamic empire"... Oh well, that will just take us on a huge tangent of silliness.
Re: the rest of your post about recalling Pakistani citizens from abroad and "Quaid's grand dream of Islamic empire"... Oh well, that will just take us on a huge tangent of silliness.
A lot of expatriates dream of turning Pakistan into a modern state- Islamic for the namesake- a lot of 1st generation Pakistani Canadian/American who drive SUVs and get information about their motherland from the phoren media think in order to improve their image(which in turn is tied to Pakistan's image), they must do something to modernize Pakistan so the world looks less at Pakistan in negative shade- little do they realize that for what they are now, they owe a lot to a land they so much like to disown. Expatriates must contribute in large sum and/or do something to spread the word of Islam to their gora friends. Let me ask all Pakistani expatriates- how many of offer namaz on the carpet of your office OR how many of you demand the company be shut during Id or how many of you demand halal food during company parties? Aap log abhi bhi ghulam ho- fark bus itna hai ab goron ke mulk meun ghulam ho(You are still slaves to the goras but now resident in their countries).I haven't many Pakistani in UK/US/Canada wearing Islamic clothing or keeping long beard..