Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
The more I read about Jinnah, the more I admire him.
His vision was far sighted and he knew what the 'thanedars of religion' would do to pakistan (or any country).
Jinnah had defined Pakistanis' as a 'modern secular country'.
Yet Pakistan moved the opposite direction - thereby weakening and almost destroying the fabric of the country.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
Jinnah had defined Pakistanis' as a 'modern secular country'. Yet Pakistan moved the opposite direction - thereby weakening and almost destroying the fabric of the country.
Quoted 4 Truth!
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
The more I read about Jinnah, the more I admire him. His vision was far sighted and he knew what the 'thanedars of religion' would do to pakistan (or any country).
Jinnah had defined Pakistanis' as a 'modern secular country'. Yet Pakistan moved the opposite direction - thereby weakening and almost destroying the fabric of the country.
Jinnah never used the word secular. He wanted a modern, democratic, Islamic state. What he meant by Islamic state was either opportunistic popularism, or an arcane ideology only he had knowledge of, if we are to presume it's something other than what his contemporary Islamists, to some degree, implied.
When I was growing up, people were hell bent on thinking Jinnah wanted a theocracy...now, they think he was a kemalist. Will the real Jinnah please stand up? Because he was certainly neither....and he had a personal relationship with the so-called Attaturk, so it's not like he didn't know what secularism was or meant.
Jinnah's silence on the subject after Pakistan was founded, save a speech here or there, seems to speak louder than anything else...the truth is, he didn't really care...so long as he was Gov. General. The Muslim personal law remained intact, there was no banning of the selwar kameez, never bind the burker, and Urdu did not adopt a latin script. Nor were the young encouraged to adopt western dress and engage in ballroom dancing...this latter banter should be familiar to those who are acquainted with the forced westernization policy which was adopted throughout the middle east.
Jinnah would have nothing to do with that crap. He personally was a cultural Muslim, had no problem with Islamic law as part of the writ of the state (as per the Muslim family laws inherited from British India), did not loath his culture nor think it was in some way responsible for "backwardness", and would not have a theocracy under his watch. It's a very nuanced view which too many are desperate to "simplify".
Re: “country” not “Religion” defines us.
I see you have been answered. A woman/man from India writing “we”. 
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
It is just not possible that MA Jinnah would have envisioned Pakistan to be secular....as per definition to have Govt. and Religion be separate.
All he meant was that everyone with ANY religion were to be free,...... to follow his/her religion. But the Govt. system was supposed to be based on Islam.
Now in practical means, fake liberals and seculars are not really tolerant,....... majority of them are anti-religion...MA Jinnah was not. That's all.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
Only the part in bold, not the rest.
What's wrong with referring to Dawkins? Must have been in the Einstein thread and that's coz he had Dawkins had explained it pretty well. His arguments are very powerful, but would you rather pretend that he doesn't exist?
Pakistan did not come into being to be a secular state, it was not just to provide a safe haven for Muslims but to give them an identity, it is (despite the corrupt governments terrible government) an Islamic state. All Islamic states aim to create a khilafa or an Islamic world almost which is governed by Islamic ruling, the fact that the Pakistani government failed to do so is a different story.
That doesn't however mean that there is no place for non-muslims in Pakistan, just that the law and government should work according to Islamic rulings which obviously respect and tolerate all other groups of people.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
All Islamic states aim to create a khilafa or an Islamic world almost which is governed by Islamic ruling, the fact that the Pakistani government failed to do so is a different story.
ROFLMAO!!!! Thank God I wasn't drinking anything while reading this!! LOL! :p
Anyways, I've seen that it is useless to argue with you Cyber Jihadis so please continue with your Khilafat or whatever it is and in a few years, there won't be any Pakistan on which to impose Shariah.
And BTW, KiteRunner and all other Soldiers of Islam who are sitting in the UK, why are you living in a Dar-Ul-Harb? PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS and com live in this Muslim country that we gained after such a great struggle.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
@KiteRunner - what 'islamic rulings' are you planning on? the ones that don't allow half the muslims to celebrate eid (check Iran).
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
Erm hold on a second. Thanks for the whole generalising and putting a label on me before even hearing me out. I am not a crazy hizb-ul tahrir man neither am I fighting to form a khalifa all I have said is that Pakistan is an Islamic state and any self respecting muslim knows that the law of Allah swt is above the secular law of humans, if you aren't muslim then good on you. But, the argument originally started from whether your loyalty to your country should lie above your loyalty to your religion, if the whole country was based on providing a safe haven for muslims then how it can demand it's citizen to hold it dearer than Islam!
Bindazguy: The actual Islamic rulings that are liberal and the word of God, the ones that give women freedom and promote education and diversity and education.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
I have said is that Pakistan is an Islamic state
Yes, it is an Islamic state. It is an Islamic state where people die in hospitals for lack of medicine. It is an Islamic state where there is no justice, where people are slaughtered everyday, where anyone can kill you, kidnap you, rob you, beat you, rape you and get away with it. Where Plaintiffs and defendants die and the cases are still pending. Where everyone from a PTCL line man to the President is corrupt.
Yes, It is an Islamic state where ethnic and sectarian violence is an everyday thing. It is an Islamic state where woman are treated as property, their rights trampled underfoot. It is an Islamic state where people have views more extreme than Hitler's. It is an Islamic state where thousands of people go to sleep hungry every night.
What a joke!
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
Yes, it is an Islamic state. It is an Islamic state where people die in hospitals for lack of medicine. It is an Islamic state where there is no justice, where people are slaughtered everyday, where anyone can kill you, kidnap you, rob you, beat you, rape you and get away with it. Where Plaintiffs and defendants die and the cases are still pending. Where everyone from a PTCL line man to the President is corrupt.
Yes, It is an Islamic state where ethnic and sectarian violence is an everyday thing. It is an Islamic state where woman are treated as property, their rights trampled underfoot. It is an Islamic state where people have views more extreme than Hitler's. It is an Islamic state where thousands of people go to sleep hungry every night.
What a joke!
Well I'm not disagreeing with you, is sharia law in practise there the way it should be? Do women have the freedom that Allah has given them? Are all citizens treated like brothers and sisters? No.
I agree that the government is terrible, it's a corrupt system and needs to be changed. That doesn't mean that the Islamic system needs changing only that they need to be implemented properly. Islam does not justify women being battered or people going hungry or people being raped and murdered, in fact it teaches the exact opposite of that.
Sharia did not fail, it is the power crazed corrupt leaders that have failed to implement it properly, it is the failure of our Islamic scholars who have not stood up against the government that calls itself as Islamic republic yet does not possess any of it qualities. The law of God doesn't need changing or modifying, it is perfect in itself, however the way it's implemented needs changing. You mention sharia law and people think of beheading and cruel acts yet if you see the scholars who study it, their interpretations are widely different. there was actually a fatwa against death row, so let's not blame Islam, maybe just maybe it's our own fault.
Pakistan is an Islamic state but right now just by name, not by the way it's governed or the way the citizens are suffering, we should have faith in the religion sent to us rather than conforming to the secularist views because it makes you more 'madran' and 'liberal'.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
Well I'm not disagreeing with you, is sharia law in practise there the way it should be? Do women have the freedom that Allah has given them? Are all citizens treated like brothers and sisters? No.
I agree that the government is terrible, it's a corrupt system and needs to be changed. That doesn't mean that the Islamic system needs changing only that they need to be implemented properly. Islam does not justify women being battered or people going hungry or people being raped and murdered, in fact it teaches the exact opposite of that.
Sharia did not fail, it is the power crazed corrupt leaders that have failed to implement it properly, it is the failure of our Islamic scholars who have not stood up against the government that calls itself as Islamic republic yet does not possess any of it qualities. The law of God doesn't need changing or modifying, it is perfect in itself, however the way it's implemented needs changing. You mention sharia law and people think of beheading and cruel acts yet if you see the scholars who study it, their interpretations are widely different. there was actually a fatwa against death row, so let's not blame Islam, maybe just maybe it's our own fault.
Pakistan is an Islamic state but right now just by name, not by the way it's governed or the way the citizens are suffering, we should have faith in the religion sent to us rather than conforming to the secularist views because it makes you more 'madran' and 'liberal'.
As I said above, useless to argue with Cyber Jihadis. Islam is not barbaric, FAR FROM IT! Its a religion of peace and and places EXTREME EMPHASIS on HUMANITY. However, the interpretation of Islam that is followed my most in countries like Pakistan means that the imposition of Shariah would only push the country off the cliff on whose edge it has stood for so.
I think the Western countries like UK and France are as close to Shariah as you can get. Weird opinion, I accept, but think about it. They have three main things that an Islamic state is supposed to have: Justice, Welfare and Tolerance.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
. Sharia did not fail, it is the power crazed corrupt leaders that have failed to implement it properly, it is the failure of our** Islamic scholars who have not stood up against the government** that calls itself as Islamic republic yet does not possess any of it qualities.
Shukar hai Allah ka these idiots don't get more involved than they already are. These "scholars" will be the death of our nation.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
The more I read about Jinnah, the more I admire him. His vision was far sighted and he knew what the 'thanedars of religion' would do to pakistan (or any country).
Jinnah had defined Pakistanis' as a 'modern secular country'. Yet Pakistan moved the opposite direction - thereby weakening and almost destroying the fabric of the country.
Sorry Sir Jinnah never used the word secular in his whole life
“I am not a ‘moulvi” nor do I claim to be an expert in theology. However, I have tried, at my own, to understand Quran and the Islamic laws. In the teachings of this great book there is guidance for each and every aspect of human life, may be it is spiritual, social, political or economical all have been covered by it”
(Address at the Usmania University, Hyderabad, India-1941). “People criticize me alleging that I am not well acquainted with Islam. I. have studied Quran thoroughly and many a time. And when I declared that Islamic system would be established in Pakistan, It was not a mere slogan” (Tolu-e Islam-February,1959).
“You have requested me for giving you a message .What message can I give? For guidance and light, we all are blessed with Quran’s loftiest message” (Frontier Muslim Students Conference—April, 1943).
During struggle for Pakistan when Muslims were facing great hardships and victimization at the hands of Hindus and their allies ,Quaid comforted them saying that ultimate success would be theirs if they only sought guidance from the Quran:–“ At present, a battle is going on between the Muslims and the Hindus in the political arena. People ask me as to who is going to be the winner? Only God knows about it. However, as a Muslim I can assure that if we treat the Holy Quran as our final and absolute guide and persevere not forgetting at the same time God’s command that all Muslims are brothers to one another, no earthly power or even their combine, can defeat us” ( Address at a meeting in Hyderabad ,Deccan—July,1946). “ We have been the victim of a deeply laid and well-planned conspiracy…..We thank Providence for giving us courage and faith to fight these forces of evil. If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours.”(Speech at a rally at the University Stadium,Lahore-October,1947).
According to the great Quaid, Holy Quran is the “sheet anchor of Islam and fundamental code of life for Muslims “What is it that keeps the Muslims united, and what is bedrock and sheet anchor of the community. It is Islam. It is the great book Quran that is the sheet anchor of Muslim India.” (Speech at ALL India Muslim League Session, Karachi-26-12-1943). “Every Musalman knows that the injunctions of the Quran, are not confined to religious and moral duties. From the Atlantic to the Ganges, Quran is acknowledged as the fundamental code, not only of theology, but of civil and criminal jurisprudence, and the laws which regulate the actions of mankind are governed by the immutable sanctions of the Will of God. Everyone except those who are ignorant knows that Quran is the general code of Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial criminal penal code, it regulates everything…. .And our Prophet has enjoined on us, that every Musalman should possess a copy of the Quran and be his own priest. Therefore, Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collectively and individually.” ( Eid Message to the Nation—September,1945).
Elaborating the role of the Quran and the Islamic State, the Quaid, in his address to the students of the Usmania University, Deccan in August, 1941, said,” In Islam ultimate obedience belongs to God alone.The only way to follow His guidance is through the Holy Quran. Islam does not preach obedience to a king, parliament, person or any institution. The Islamic Government means rule of the Quran. And how can you establish the rule of Quran without an independent state? In this state, legislation will take place within the boundaries drawn by the Quran”.
This scribe has yet to come across a better description of the role and function of the Quran and an Islamic State than the one given above by the great Quaid.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
Muslims are allover defined buy their deen Islam
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
As I said above, useless to argue with Cyber Jihadis. Islam is not barbaric, FAR FROM IT! Its a religion of peace and and places EXTREME EMPHASIS on HUMANITY. However, the interpretation of Islam that is followed my most in countries like Pakistan means that the imposition of Shariah would only push the country off the cliff on whose edge it has stood for so.
I think the Western countries like UK and France are as close to Shariah as you can get. Weird opinion, I accept, but think about it. They have three main things that an Islamic state is supposed to have: Justice, Welfare and Tolerance.
I hope you're not calling me a cyber jihadi because that will only make me think more lowly of you, LOL as if that was possible. You don't know what my opinion on Islam is, what interpretations I follow or how I implement it in my life, so don't sit there and label me as something because it helps you feel better about yourself, it makes you the more, oh what was it 'the liberal one'. I think we've come to learn your love for stereotyping, generalising and labeling, you must think it makes you sound clever. LOL.
So you know that in Islam a perfect system does exist, one better than the system that we see in any country right now, yes the interpretations in some places are wrong but we're still agreeing that if studied and used properly then Islam is the best way forward. Then why give up on it? Why go for a secularist, less perfect method just because it's easier?
Just because something is western doesn't make is automatically better, what we have is far better, we need the proper interpretations, which do exist, and proper people in power who will implement it, not follow the west like sheep.
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
Shukar hai Allah ka these idiots don't get more involved than they already are. These "scholars" will be the death of our nation.
There you go painting everyone with the same brush again, oh noes you might make a thread about me being a 'conservative' jihadi now :(
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
There you go painting everyone with the same brush again, oh noes you might make a thread about me being a 'conservative' jihadi now :(
Nope, a better term for people like you is "Cyber Jihadi Super Muslims". Courtesy: Med911 (I think)
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
There you go painting everyone with the same brush again, oh noes you might make a thread about me being a 'conservative' jihadi now :(
I have told people before too........not to engage in 'discussion' with...............
Re: "country" not "Religion" defines us.
I have told people before too........not to engage in 'discussion' with...............
Afraid of losing eh?