Correct me

[Das_Reich]

Re: Correct me

@Captain1

In my own search for the differences I read a book from Brelvi author (their concepts/aqaid), book from Shia author (don't remember exact names/titles), history books to find out what went wrong right after Prophet PBUH's demise.

My own understanding is as mentioned by Curious One i.e. the fight for successor of Prophet. Companions vs Ahle-bait. Followers of both went to extremes in times of Muwayiah and the divide increased multifolds including badmouthing of opposite leaders during Friday sermons etc. All this "hate" resulted in totally discarding source of info from other side which gave rise to differences in aqaaid.

If you can rise above the level to discard the old-ingrained-differences and read you'll find the common land from there you can actually laugh (sadly) at people who are fighting at the differences.

very sensible post captain1
but may I add one thing the argument between the early companions for the leadership was not as simple as " ahlulbayt vs companions"
and it is extremely wrong to assume that the faction of muawiyah represented the original companions amongst the muhajirin and ansar, I can safely say this without prejudice.Umar(ra) himself had established a system in which the early companions esp. those who were veterans of the Ghazwas were given priority in all respects
and the caliphate was strictly off-limits to "freed ones" like muawiyah.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Correct me

@Lajawab

[quote=Das Reich]

Simple...

Throw out everything that's not in the Quran and Sunnah...

we can agree as far as the Quran is concerned but again with the sunnah you have conflicting reports from all sides
just take the issue of prophet's successor ( the biggest issue with the most far reaching effect)you have the shias with so many narrations saying that Imamate was the way to go, sunnis on the other hand have an equally large number of traditions claiming that khilafat was predicted by the prophet(pbuh)

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: Correct me

@Captain1

Sheraz, discussions are "discussions" if you find an "insult" you can always point that out and I'm sure either moderator will club it or the poster will look at it. Discussions are to exchange of knowledge, when someone presents his views doesn't mean that other MUST accept and adopt it; he can disagree with it too.

captain1...there is a limit to everything...these same people have talked about these same points many times before...they had been given answers many times...but ager kisi ki khopri main samajh saknay ki gunjayesh nahi hai to phir why the same questions again and again? mujhay to yeh "fitna" hi nazar aata hai

[smooth_guy]

Re: Correct me

Lajawab:
9/11 happened and I was drawn to Islam…Then I started reading up on my faith and started to learn about Islam…

You need to watch this vid as well.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=213442

[Lajawab]

Re: Correct me

[quote=“Das Reich”]

@Lajawab

we can agree as far as the Quran is concerned but again with the sunnah you have conflicting reports from all sides
just take the issue of prophet’s successor ( the biggest issue with the most far reaching effect)you have the shias with so many narrations saying that Imamate was the way to go, sunnis on the other hand have an equally large number of traditions claiming that khilafat was predicted by the prophet(pbuh)

The Quran supercedes Sunnah…

I’ll give an example for starters:

Maatam:

Quran states: And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.2:154

**And reckon not those who are killed in Allah’s way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;3:169

Rejoicing in what Allah has given them out of His grace and they rejoice for the sake of those who, (being left) behind them, have not yet joined them, that they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.3:170**

One weeps for the dead…Not for the living…According to Sunni doctrines, you do not weep for a Shaheed for they are living…These Ayat nullify all belief of the concept of Maatam wherever they came from…Who weeps for the living? No one…Hence, to mourn the deaths of Hz. Hussain and Hassan , is a Bida’a and goes against the Quran…

Taqqiyah:

O followers of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with the falsehood and hide the truth while you know?3:71

This verse clearly nullifies the concept of Taqqiyah stating that one must not hide the truth…

Also, the Holy Prophet :saw: never practiced Taqiyyah and no Sahaba practiced Taqiyyah, even when they were outnumbered 4 to 1 in the battlefield againt all odds, they did not practice Taqiyyah…

This solidly confirms that the concept of Taqqiyah is a total Bida’a and goes against the teachings of both the Quran and Sunnah…

This is what I meant by eradicating everything from Islam that is not found in Quran and Sunnah…

But would you accept the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah over what your Imams have taught you? Obviously not…

So these things will continue to be taught without looking into the fact whether they comply with the Quran or Sunnah or not…

And if someone like me would come along and question these concepts, he would be blamed for Shia bashing by Sheraz…

[smooth_guy]

Re: Correct me

bao, you might have heard this famous saying.

When the truth is spoken 'you' would know. Its only if 'you' are chosen to recognise it. Taufeeq billaah in Arabic. Mashallah you did the right thing to check others out, now you will be more satisfied with your faith.

[humhaipakistani]

Re: Correct me

I wish this thing had statistics search for I believe that out of the 2, 470 or so posts that bao bihari has, at least 75% of them are probably about his absolute obsession with HIS belief in shias believing in the 'incompleteness' of Quran and the concept of Taqiya.

For all the highly respectful background info, allow me, for the umpteeth time Bao to allay you dubious fears and to correct you.

What you assume and no doubt will wilfully continue to believe, is that (a) all shias are liars and (b) all shias believe the quran is incomplete (c) Any shia who states that the quran is complete is obviously lying. This is exactly what your post boils down to. This regurgitation of centuries old anti-shia propaganda is just way too lazy an effort on your part to even be credited as 'research'.

No, here's the simple answers:

1 - No Shia believes in tahreef of Quran
2 - Any hadith which contradicts the Quran in any way is bull****. So no need to go into tawatur etc.
3 - The Quran states clearly the Quran is protected by Allah shwt Himself from any tahrif (15:9) so anyone can all bleat all the ahadith till judgement day but it won't change the simple fact that the quran was never changed, and can never be changed.

So bao, you see, the real issue is not in Shias beleving in the authenticity and completeness of the Quran, as unbelievable as that may be to you, but instead the issue is about your ability to see beyond your in-bred paranoia and suspicion and to learn to deal with that before anything else. For it is these two things which feed your ignorance.

[humhaipakistani]

Re: Correct me

Lajawab, this is what the Quran has to say on Taqiyya:

[Yusufali 16:106] Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, *utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith *- but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Correct me

[quote=Lajawab]

[quote=Das Reich]

Taqqiyah:

O followers of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with the falsehood and hide the truth while you know?3:71

This verse clearly nullifies the concept of Taqqiyah stating that one must not hide the truth…

people of the book are being addressed and what is discussed is that they should not “hide the truth” and not deny the facts relating to Muhammad(pbuh) in their texts. It dosent mention anything about being under compulsion or under the pain of death.And taqqiyah is only allowed in such circumstances

Also, the Holy Prophet :saw: never practiced Taqiyyah and no Sahaba practiced Taqiyyah, even when they were outnumbered 4 to 1 in the battlefield againt all odds, they did not practice Taqiyyah…

Taqqiyah is not on the battlefield, in all the uprisings shias took part under the ummayyads or otherwise they were heavily outnumbered in all these cases.
For all the accusations against the shias the one is totally baseless that they never rose up against their oppressors.In the reign of every ummayyad caliph their is at least one recorded uprising except umar ibn abdul aziz(ra)

While you tend to look at taqqiyah as such an evil innovation why dont to care to comment on the Extra-judicial killings of shias under the umayyads that made this practice neccessary in the first place, bear in mind the ummayyads called themselves Allah’s viceroy on earth so whatever they did according to them was “the will of Allah” what kind of a terrible innovation was that?

[Curious_One]

Re: Correct me

@Lajawab

One weeps for the dead…Not for the living…According to Sunni doctrines, you do not weep for a Shaheed for they are living…These Ayat nullify all belief of the concept of Maatam wherever they came from…Who weeps for the living? No one…Hence, to mourn the deaths of Hz. Hussain and Hassan , is a Bida’a and goes against the Quran…

Ok so according to you weeping for (only) the dead is allowed, and I am sure all sunnis love all their khalifa’s, so can you explain to me why we don’t see any sunni weeping for say Hz Abu Bakr, or Hz Umar??

I am surprised that you do not know the reasons why shias weep, it is quiet obvious from your post that you have formed your own opinion as to the logic and reasoning behind matam and weeping, but since its based on your own ill informed and ill logical belief, let me correct you. The weeping or the matam is not for their death for the following reason (just 1 of many reasons)

1. Zulm committed against them.
   So you see your whole post and quoting quran to prove that shaheed’s are alive and one shouldn’t weep for them, was of no use.

Can you also answer one question for me. Since you consider Hz Hassan and Hz Hussain shaheed can you please tell me what would you call the people that killed them?? and can you please tell me who those people were that killed Hz. Hussain and what is their status in Sunni aqaaid??

[Curious_One]

Re: Correct me

**Lajawab **here is something for you to ponder.

• Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi who is regarded as one of the greatest Scholars of the Sunni Sect, describing the events at the fatal illnes of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) in his book 'Modaarejun Nubuwwat' vol II page 544 records:- "Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing (from the room of Aisha)."

• Hadhrath Aisha regarded by Ahl'ul Sunnah as the most knowledgeable women on Qur'an and Sunnah performed the following when the Prophet (S) left this earth: As narrated by al Tabari in History Volume 9 page 183 (English translation by Ismail Poonawalla)
  [INDENT]"The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women".

[/INDENT]

• According to Musnad of Imam Ahmad Hanbal Vol. 6, page 274; Aisha mourned the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) with other women by beating her head. Need I say more????

[Curious_One]

Re: Correct me

For Bao and Lajawaab

Surah Al Nahl verse 106

YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

PICKTHAL: Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief -** save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith** - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

SHAKIR: He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Care to explain the meaning of this verse??

Let me give you a hint, this is a clear sign of taqqiyah being allowed in islam.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Correct me

@Curious One

**Lajawab **here is something for you to ponder.

• Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi who is regarded as one of the greatest Scholars of the Sunni Sect, describing the events at the fatal illnes of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) in his book ‘Modaarejun Nubuwwat’ vol II page 544 records:- “Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing (from the room of Aisha).”

• Hadhrath Aisha regarded by Ahl’ul Sunnah as the most knowledgeable women on Qur’an and Sunnah performed the following when the Prophet (S) left this earth: As narrated by al Tabari in History Volume 9 page 183 (English translation by Ismail Poonawalla)
  [INDENT]“The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women”.

[/INDENT]

• According to Musnad of Imam Ahmad Hanbal Vol. 6, page 274; Aisha mourned the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) with other women by beating her head.
  Need I say more???

What you have quoted above is true. This is just a momentary human action on hearing ‘terrible news’ performed at that very moment due to intense grief.

Need I say more???

Yeah, any references that this “beating his head and loudly wailing” & “beating my chest and slapping my face” was performed annually individually or collectively in religious gathering?

Correct me if this is wrong: Isn’t it saying of Shia Imam ( I have forgotten the name) when speaking against the matam of Imam Hussein (ra) saying that the death of the Prophet (saw) deserved to be mourned over? Apologies if I got this wrong but my hunch is quite strong that is it so (the saying).

[Diva4U]

Re: Correct me

Mirzaiyat/Qadiyaniat

During school days my elder sister’s islamiat teacher (our neighbor also) was qadiyani, I frequently visited her house,had friendship with her brothers and used to read the books she provided, it was only after I borrowed a book from her , one of rooohani khazian parts, and saw the stunning ability of mirza Jee to give ja’amia tareen abuses that I thought this is not a sane person’s writings(sorry but that is where I rate this person). The more I read about them / their books the more I am sure about this.
:)
[/QUOTE]

[Diva4U]

Re: Correct me

@Diva4U

Mirzaiyat/Qadiyaniat

During school days my elder sister’s islamiat teacher (our neighbor also) was qadiyani, I frequently visited her house,had friendship with her brothers and used to read the books she provided, it was only after I borrowed a book from her , one of rooohani khazian parts, and saw the stunning ability of mirza Jee to give ja’amia tareen abuses that I thought this is not a sane person’s writings(sorry but that is where I rate this person). The more I read about them / their books the more I am sure about this.

^^I still cannot believe this above statement.

[Curious_One]

Re: Correct me

@Ibn Sadique

What you have quoted above is true. This is just a momentary human action on hearing ‘terrible news’ performed at that very moment due to intense grief.

Can you provide me with a hadith (with references) that says this was only permitted for that specific time and not permitted in future, if not then it proves that it is still permitted. We use ahadith and sunnah (actions of rasool) to determine whether something is permitted or not, how come we don't differntiate between permitted at that time and something being permitted now??

@Ibn Sadique

Correct me if this is wrong: Isn't it saying of Shia Imam ( I have forgotten the name) when speaking against the matam of Imam Hussein (ra) saying that the death of the Prophet (saw) deserved to be mourned over? Apologies if I got this wrong but my hunch is quite strong that is it so (the saying).

Ok I'll correct you, yes this is wrong there is no such saying no such indicent when an Imam spoke against the matam of Imam Hussain. If you can't provide refernce then please don't mention something you heard or something you read which you don't remember yourself.

[Curious_One]

Re: Correct me

Still waiting for your response** Lajawab**

[bao_bihari]

Re: Correct me

People calm down the thread is not about shia sunni discussion , please share your personal experiances / endevours of finding true path here.

Moderators can split the thread to keep my thread clean :)

jazakallah

[bao_bihari]

Re: Correct me

@bao bihari

Assalam o Alaikum wa rehmatullah wa barakatuhu

Shiaism For example,

In the above quote Brother ravage says that shia don’t believe that sunni compliled quran is inauthentic. This is what usulis say their aqeedah is. Ususlis only arrived on the scene after many centuries , where as shia aqeedah of tehreef e quran in meaning etc (akhbari aqeedah) was held in shia writings right from the early aaima of shia belive.. :)

Tehreef e quran being akhbari aqeedah only is not true,

It was held in shia aqaidh from early centuries i have yet to find any refutation from early aaima about tehreef aqeedah,
However
as discussed with ravage i correct my statement that akhbari aqeedah was not in shiaism right from begining. i was wrong in stating that.

[Curious_One]

Re: Correct me

Well I found one hadith from Bukhari about Hz Omar( I am only posting a portion of it, you can google bukhari if anybody wants to read the whole tradition)..

Sahi Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817: *
I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: *'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers**, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.'