@phoenixdesi - I guess your point is I shouldn't include the people of Pak & BD into those that Gandhi won the freedom for? Fine with me, not a big deal. As things have transpired since then, the people of BD keep trying to migrate back to India! As far people in Pakistan, it is too difficult for them politically and unfortunately religiously to accept they owe anything to an Indian, so that's understandable, forgetting there are as many or even more muslims in India!
None of this takes anything away from Mahatma's contribution to betterment of humanity
@phoenixdesi - As far people in Pakistan, it is too difficult for them politically and unfortunately religiously to accept they owe anything to an Indian, so that's understandable, forgetting there are as many or even more muslims in India!
kaya karien yaar majobori ha...
by the way, I am not sure if you know this or not but those 200 million Muslims that you have in India are the ones whose father and grandfathers actually played the crucial role in independence movement...musims who happened to be living in Pakistan’s territory were actually relatively quiet and passive with an exception of Lahore till 1946 elections…..it was the whole belt on Indian side from where Muslims provided the intellectually and operational support to pakistan’s independence movemnt…. Muslim student from Aligarh and osmania university for example played the leading role…
kaya karien yaar majobori ha...
by the way, I am not sure if you know this or not but those 200 million Muslims that you have in India are the ones whose father and grandfathers actually played the crucial role in independence movement...musims who happened to be living in Pakistan’s territory were actually relatively quiet and passive with an exception of Lahore till 1946 elections…..it was the whole belt on Indian side from where Muslims provided the intellectually and operational support to pakistan’s independence movemnt…. Muslim student from Aligarh and osmania university for example played the leading role…
Seems odd then that those Muslims whose fathers & grandfathers played a role in the creation of Pakistan decided to stay on in India :)
Seems odd then that those Muslims whose fathers & grandfathers played a role in the creation of Pakistan decided to stay on in India :)
it does but more than anything else it has a lot to do with geographical proximity …majority of migration from both sides took place close to borders…millions of muslim families who happened to be right on the border migrated from indian Punjab (the whole belt comprised of ludhiyana, jalandahr, Amritsar, ferozpur etc) to pakistani punjab in 1947….and that is where most of the bloodshed took place as skihs and muslims killed each other…muslims who were living in central Indian states did not migrate right away as they were away from the border plus it was relatively peacefull in those areas…..general feeling was that we will go to Pakistan in few months once things settle down…and some of them did but no one realized that the relationship between pakistan and india will get so bad so soon…war broke out in kashmir in 1948 between both countries which made things tough....still some migration continued but I think by 1951, migration from India became really difficult, borders got tight and strict travel restrictions were in place…hence majority of muslims in central indian states and in south ended up staying in india...
it does but more than anything else it has a lot to do with geographical proximity …majority of migration from both sides took place close to borders…millions of muslim families who happened to be right on the border migrated from indian Punjab (the whole belt comprised of ludhiyana, jalandahr, Amritsar, ferozpur etc) to pakistani punjab in 1947….and that is where most of the bloodshed took place as skihs and muslims killed each other…muslims who were living in central Indian states did not migrate right away as they were away from the border plus it was relatively peacefully in those areas…..general feeling was that we will go to Pakistan in few months once things settle down…..and some of them did but no one realized that the relationship between pakistan and india will get so bad so soon…war broke out in kashmir in 1948 between both countries which made things tough....still some migration continued but I think by 1951, migration from India became really difficult, borders got tight and strict travel restrictions were in place…hence majority of muslims in central indian states and in south ended up staying in india...
Seems logical, but the number of such families is probably very small compared to the total Muslim population of India. Its also possible that those Muslims now feel that they are better off living in India than in Pakistan.
Seems logical, but the number of such families is probably very small compared to the total Muslim population of India. Its also possible that those Muslims now feel that they are better off living in India than in Pakistan.
not really…remember, muslim population in both countries grew really fast…we have grown from from 60 million (excluding Bangladesh) in 1947 to 180 million today…Indian muslims grew even faster…so I am sure they were close to 60MM then and now hitting 200MM…
I know it is hard for you to believe but as I said earlier, majority of muslim pop in south and central india ended up staying in india for reasons I outlined above….NOT BY CHOICE but due to events that followed independence…..and yes not by choice because in the Constituent Assembly elections of 1946, the League won 425 out of 496 seats reserved for Muslims (and about 89.2% of Muslim votes) on a policy of creating an independent state of Pakistan. It was essentially a referendum whether Muslims want Pakistan or not and 90% of muslims voted for Pakistan…and majority of 90% of those votes came from those areas that are in india today…you can easily cross check these results…it was after 1946 elections that Gandhi also gave up and got mentally prepared for the independence.
whether Indian muslims are more happy in India today or not…I absolutely don’t want to get into that discussion because it is meaningless as people get biased….yes, pak is struggling in last 8 years because of the war on terrorism but we strongly believe that we are much better off than muslims in India…and 100% of pakistanis will say this…today in USA, Pakistanis are roughly 1 to 4 to Indians in every aspect of life… whether it is medical field, engineering or businesses…go to any grad school and you will see the same trend…just check how many Indian muslisms have made to grad schools in USA though? Very little…or how many Indian muslims excelled in North America the way hindus have…but I really don’t want to start this discussion because it is meaningless…if Indian Muslims are happy in india, may god give them more happiness in india…..this is their country afterall…for us, Pakistan is everything and it has given us so much..and based on what I have heard from my family members who migrated from india in 1947, I am glad I was not born in India to a muslim family… …afterall this is my choice to make that prayer!...
I just wanted to give some historical pespective on indo-pak history…that is all
I know it is hard for you to believe but as I said earlier, majority of muslim pop in south and central india ended up staying in india for reasons I outlined above….NOT BY CHOICE but due to events that followed independence…..
Its not that I don't want to believe you, but there has to be something better than your opinion to make a valid arguement out of this point :) I have personally known many Indian Muslims and they made the choice to stay in India. Infact in many cases, part of the family moved to Pak and the rest chose to stay behind.
I would definitely want to discuss this further if you have valid data/facts to back it up, but in the absence of facts its tough to believe anything.
Its not that I don't want to believe you, but there has to be something better than your opinion to make a valid arguement out of this point :) I have personally known many Indian Muslims and they made the choice to stay in India. Infact in many cases, part of the family moved to Pak and the rest chose to stay behind.
I would definitely want to discuss this further if you have valid data/facts to back it up, but in the absence of facts its tough to believe anything.
You don’t have to believe me or anybody else…and yes you are right, it is not my opinion that matters…:)… but i realize that you conveniently ignored the quantitative portion of my post in which I did provide verified election results for 1946 and the premises based on which those elections took place…now to me, that is a good starting point for someone who wants to get to the bottom of this issue…..isn’t it? You dont have to do it tonight but it would be worthwhile to read some good history books from hereon...as you said,it is not your opinion or my opinion or opinion of some families whom you happen to know over the years matters…I am sure there will be many families who decided to live in India by their own choice but there are many more who did not and I was trying to inculcate historical context into discussion by giving some data…and how Indian Muslims voted in those critical elections..
Correct me if im wrong, but you claim that the Muslims of India decided to stay in India based solely on those Indian Muslims that YOU spoke too.. How credible are you, and why should we assume that everyone talking to you isnt simply telling you what you want to hear and not wanting to appear rude?
Where is your evidence to show that most Indian Muslims choose to stay in India and weren’t compelled to for whatever reason?
Bhai sahiab, janab….what I have referred to is not an opinion but an established historical fact…..you can google “mulsim league 1946 elections” and or a similar title and will find a lot of material…or read any good history book…1946 eelctions are always disucssed in detail amid its importance…
just so that you can understand the electoral situation in india in1946 (copied from Atlantic):“muslims numbered only 94.5 millions according to the census of 1941 compared with the 255 million Hindus and therefore they would always be in a minority in any system of democratically elected bodies.To counter this disability the Muslims, as long ago as 1909, pressed for and secured the electoral device of separate Hindu and Moslem electorates, with seats “reserved” in the legislature on a communal basis. This procedure ensured to Moslems a political representation in excess of their numerical proportions”
Based on this separate electoral constituency system, 1946 elections took place and final results are well documented (Muslim league winning almost 88% of Muslim electoral seats on which congress-backed candidates were also contesting muslim-league candidates….and a vote for muslim league meant a vote for Pakistan)…I have given you enough data…now go do some search and read some history books..that is all!
Correct me if im wrong, but you claim that the Muslims of India decided to stay in India based solely on those Indian Muslims that YOU spoke too.. How credible are you, and why should we assume that everyone talking to you isnt simply telling you what you want to hear and not wanting to appear rude?
Where is your evidence to show that most Indian Muslims choose to stay in India and weren't compelled to for whatever reason?
You are wrong, so let me correct you.
My point is that just based on phoenixdesi's opinion it is tough to believe that "a majority" of the 200 Mn or so Muslims in India would want to move to Pak. Its possible that half of the 60Mn Muslims at partition wanted to move to Pak but could not. But that 30 Mn is just about 15% of the 200 Mn Muslim population in India today.
Now I may be wrong in my assumptions, but just your or PD's opinion does not prove it.
You guys are trying to guess which of the following two forces was more powerful in 1947:
a) the emotional appeal of a Muslim country separate from India where they can be the majority instead of playing second fiddle OR
b) the logistical nightmare of a non-Punjabi and non-Bengali muslim uprooting and moving to Pakistan
You can make any sort of counter argument, for example:
1) if somebody was aggressive enough to fight for a muslim country wouldn't they be willing enough to move there when they won their fight?
2) how many muslims of punjab or bengal really had a choice of not becoming Pakistanis when their villages and towns were designated Pakistan or India?
and so on.
It is not difficult to believe there were few millions under each category!
My point is that just based on phoenixdesi's opinion it is tough to believe that "a majority" of the 200 Mn or so Muslims in India would want to move to Pak. Its possible that half of the 60Mn Muslims at partition wanted to move to Pak but could not. But that 30 Mn is just about 15% of the 200 Mn Muslim population in India today.
Now I may be wrong in my assumptions, but just your or PD's opinion does not prove it.
If you can't answer a man's arguements, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names - Elbert Hubbard...........................
it was not my opinion...it was history...plus no one is questioning loyalty of today's indian muslims....we were talking about "intent" and "preference" of indian muslims at the time of partition, not today....anyway you completely missed the point....so no point of discussing any further...jahan raho kush raho!
You guys are trying to guess which of the following two forces was more powerful in 1947:
a) the emotional appeal of a Muslim country separate from India where they can be the majority instead of playing second fiddle OR
b) the logistical nightmare of a non-Punjabi and non-Bengali muslim uprooting and moving to Pakistan
You can make any sort of counter argument, for example:
1) if somebody was aggressive enough to fight for a muslim country wouldn't they be willing enough to move there when they won their fight?
2) how many muslims of punjab or bengal really had a choice of not becoming Pakistanis when their villages and towns were designated Pakistan or India?
and so on.
It is not difficult to believe there were few millions under each category!
Please read the posts above before jumping to conclusions. Thank you.
If you can't answer a man's arguements, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names - Elbert Hubbard...........................
it was not my opinion...it was history...plus no one is questioning loyalty of today's indian muslims....we were talking about "intent" and "preference" of indian muslims at the time of partition, not today....anyway you completely missed the point....so no point of discussing any further...jahan raho kush raho!
Unfortunately, so far I just have your opinion on the matter which is not enough to carry on the debate further :)
My point is that just based on phoenixdesi's opinion it is tough to believe that "a majority" of the 200 Mn or so Muslims in India would want to move to Pak. Its possible that half of the 60Mn Muslims at partition wanted to move to Pak but could not. But that 30 Mn is just about 15% of the 200 Mn Muslim population in India today.
Now I may be wrong in my assumptions, but just your or PD's opinion does not prove it.
Is this about what Indian Muslims want TODAY, or what they wanted 60 plus years ago? Dont see where PD is referring to the Muslims of India TODAY wanting to move to Pakistan. Isn't this about what the Muslims of India during partition?
If you have already agreed that a good portion of the Muslim population of India wanted to move during partition but could not, then what are you debating?
If you dont know what it is your debating, how can you ask for data to support it?
Is this about what Indian Muslims want TODAY, or what they wanted 60 plus years ago? Dont see where PD is referring to the Muslims of India TODAY wanting to move to Pakistan. Isn't this about what the Muslims of India during partition?
If you have already agreed that a good portion of the Muslim population of India wanted to move during partition but could not, then what are you debating?
If you dont know what it is your debating, how can you ask for data to support it?
Let me make it simple for you.
PD's point is about what Indian Muslims wanted in 1947, and he has not provided data to back it up.
