consumerism - why is it bad

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So I dont understand one thing, people are all against consumerism, people buying things etc etc.
there are others who dont like taxes..

first of all this whole isue with capitlism/consumerism- if people are not buying stuff..how is money circulating in the economy, how are businesses established and how do people work? The argument I have had with people is when they talk about socialism or even some sort of islamic state where things are run from teh state treasury, where is the treasury getting the money? taxes? how does it get taxes, either on income or on consumption (e.g. sales tax) and if it is income tax, then the income is generated by selling some product or service..and thus we are back to consumers.

someone clear this for me.

an after thought..now the issue with taxes- on the other hand we have people who oppose taxes. The ones that really amuse me are those who have some benefits of taxation but dont like taxation, like the farming belt in US, fairly republican, all against govt intervention and taxes, but then they have farm subsidies, paid for by taxes of others..and ofcourse a form of govt intervention.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

X2 – I guess I am someone who takes the middle road on this. I try to distinguish between consumption and consumerism and while I think the former is a modern day economic necessity, I’m not too sure about the latter.

When I hear the term consumerism, I tend to think of materialism and the socially bourgeois. Consumption on the other hand, as a hallmark of the industrial revolution and Keynesian style economics… I’m all for that!

I mean, I’m no bohemian or monk living in a temple but I guess I do get somewhat agitated with people’s preoccupation with wealth and ownership.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

to be honest, i might not give the best explanation and answer but all i know is that i could never understand that which is better, consumerism, capitalism, socialims or any other ISM, one part of my mind thinks consumerism is right, let the users dictate wat they want, but the other part says it leads to materialism and now the third part says wats wrong with materlialism and the argument keeps on going till my small sized braini gets tired.

anyways i would agree with LC that the middle lane should be adopted, not fully capitalistic like USA, not fully communist like cuba and like china used to be, should be like a welfare capitalistic state like canada, or UK and australia.

one of the best and affordable cell packages in pak are an advantage of consumrizism and north america specially canada couldnt do that and hence pak is way ahead in cell fone stuff as compared to Kunayda.

but production of magazines like Play boy and penthouse are also gifts of consumerism. so it might be an advantage for few of us but as a muslim its a disadvantage, so again as i said middle lane is the best lane.

and Taxes, i dont see any debates there, m not against taxes as far as they dont rip off my skin. i get few tears in my eyes when i file my tax and curse canada, but when i see my mom' 5 major operations done using the best technology in the world and best hospitals "totally free" without any kind of hassle and my dad's three angioplasties and angiographies and one throat tumor operation done totally free in a hospital that really invented the original heart transplant technology, and i thanked Allah that i pay taxes when few years back my liver stopped working and not only my whole medical was done free but also doctor filed a forum for me that stated the poor kid cant work anymore and he deserves the claim to employment insurance and i got paid biweekly by government to meet my personal expenses. i dont mind paying taxes when i drive on nice highways and roads and get free education upto grade 12 and every disable guy gets money from government and the guy who is in between jobs also get compensated by government and even if u give birth to a baby government pays u every month to take care of that baby. Alhumdulilah thats y m in canada and i dont mind paying taxes.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

I read the thread’s title as “Exorcism-why is it bad”
Laykin yahaN tuo scene kuch aur he hie :hmmm:

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

ab mera exorcism ke barey main youtube per videos dekhne ko dil ker raha hia, but behter hai raat kharab na karon aur aram se so jaon

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One Song, Different Singers Competition [OPEN NOW]
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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

Aho! I think we better stick to topic warna X2 is an expert of it, subah ko apnay 10 number size kay jootay say donoN ki chitrol kar dalaiN gay :@:

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

It is not mere buying stuff, it is about "compulsive buying", it is not just selling, it is forced selling and it is not circulation of money, it is "speculation of money" at its best. Today's capitalism is upside down "Robin Hood" culture.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

^ totally agree, isnt this exactly why the economy is in tatters here? consumerism brings to mind the concept of unlimited resources and spending, the American way of life, but it simply cannot last forever, simple economics.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

eco, why not the Islamic economic system? no taxes on your income! :)

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

Dekhiye jee consumerism is not bad so long as you are not “spreading legs out of your chaadar” :halo:

“Israaf” (un-necessary expenses) is highly looked upon in Islam and considered even a sin, anyway.

Re, Argument on Islamic State: Taxes besides Zakaat and/or Jizya are totally Islamic… Islamic state is welfare state but for deserving people not for riches of the society :slight_smile:

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

^^ It makes me really me happy to see that some people still think about islam, May Allah bless ya for that.

now coming to the point of islamic economic system in which u said there is no taxes in income.

i wont go in to the income part but yes there are taxes in islamic economic system, and according to some Ullamah the taxes that u r suppose to pay in the islamic economic system are way more than wat u pay in canada (13%) and even in UK (17% i think) and according to historians and Ullamahs Islam talks about 20% tax and if u also include zakah then it would 22.5% (some ppl include zakah in taxes and say its 20% only) in any case its more than canada and uk.

Our primary source of Guidance Quran talks about economy at many places. i might not remember all of em but the ones i could remember and find are as follows

2:275
2:276
3:130
7:85
4:20
5:90
3:180
25:67
7:31
98:5
64:15
64:16

these are all the verses where Allah talks about the economy he wants, he tells wat should be done and he also tells wat should be shunned like forbidden Usury (excessive interest) and wealth from orphans, but at no place Allah talks about shunning taxes, now u might think that Allah didn talk about taxes cuz at that time there were no taxes, but yes there were taxes at that time and they were started by Hazrat Abu Mutalib (may Allah be please with him) , Grand father of Prophet (saw) and Prophet (saw) also payed tax after hijrah. if u r having a hard time to remember wat i m talking about then a clue would be Khums, khums is taxs that ppl used to pay b4 prophet (saw), during the rule of prophet (saw) and after the rule of (saw).

now wat is zakah??? zakah is a form of tax aswell.
In canada u pay 13% tax if ur income is above a certain bracket and then that tax is used to help parents raise their kids, giving welfare to ppl, giving free education to kids, helping disables, same in Islam, if ur savings are in a certain bracket u have to pay 2.5% zakah to help poor.
and Khums is on profit that u make and according to many ullamahs its 20% after ur necessary expenses.
i hope i made my point clear :S:S but if i couldnt please leme know and i will try to explain again.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

Peace bro X2

Asking why consumerism is a bad thing is like asking why selfishness is bad thing. Consumerism is just another word for "a global system of material selfishness"

In capitalistic consumerism the idea is more than just being 'fazool kharch' the idea is that whenever there is a problem the solution is related to 'gaining more wealth' in order to fuel 'buying more product'.

The solution is short sighted because when people depend on material things to fulfil themselves then when those material things are not available there are serious repurcusions and when they are available the society class differential expands and fewer people gain more wealth and mroe people have to work harder to support the appetites of the greedy few.

The best solution to global recession is found in Shari'ah. Instead of taxing income, you 'tax' savings only. And those savings are only 'taxable' or zakatable when the wealth has stayed in the accounts for a period of one year. This way people will spend more and give more charity ... charity will encourage the lower band income people to spend and you have a moving economy again.

If you read the Qur'an often it will talk ill of people who over spend and those people who save large amounts taking wealth out of circulation. Over spending leads to class problems and not spending or giving charity leads to locked economies.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

salam ecoshan, thanks for the reply,

there is a difference between taxes imposed on your income and taxes imposed your savings.. that's the difference i was trying to point out. hope it makes sense now. and im not that educated enough on this topic, insh'Allah continue the discussion.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

Lucid. Psyah and AQ

so your definition of consumerism is overspending, kewl.

now lets talk about consumption, which is done by consumers...forget greed, keeping up with the joneses and all. we all need products and services. those must be provided by individuals and businesses.

those businesses and individuals would provide jobs to people. taxes would provide for social services etc etc.

the only issue is between spending and overspending, and that in many cases is a subjective assessment as well, especially as products become obolete and new ones offer more features.

taxes imposed on income or taxes imposed on savings are really not a huge issue, we assume that people would give more in charity if they are paying taxes on savings, is that really the case or would we encourage further overspending?

and by the same token if you are taxing the savings of lower income people, what is their incentive to save especially if there is always the safety net available

psyah, in the end you come back to consumption anyways..charity given so lower income people can spend..

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AQ thanks for correcting this miscomception.

additionally, whether the state's source of funding, in order to fund social services,infrastructure etc is taxes and/or zakat. the level thatthe govt collects is based on how much pp are earning and/or how much people are spending (which btw has some connection to how much people are earning anyways)

and to earn people needjobs and businesses, and businesses cant survieve unless they are selling products and services and that cant happen unless there is consumption.

The point here is that consumption..business and consumer consumption..drives the economy, no matter what system you support.

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^^ agree 100% with ya.
just on the side note islam doesn prohibit tax on income, Khums is tax on income and profit and its 20%.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

ecoshan

thanks dude. this poststems from an interesting discussion I had with someone who was talking about islamic system and one who was talkign socialist system, and how it would not be a consumer based economy and no taxation etc, and second talking about how govt should provide etc etc. I had to walk im through some basic realities of where does the money come from for the govt to spend..and we ended at consumption. They did talk trade..but then trade just means consumption elsewhere.

Emptiness
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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

I hoped you would not misunderstand me. So I need to explain further.

Consumerism as opposed to consumption is about the materialistic aspect of fulfilment of NEEDS through consumption. Because the system is capitalistic is means this NEEDS bar is raised and raised until people begin to believe that they NEED makeup, a car, to buy a house, etc

We should be trained to exercise self restraint. Instead of taking out loans that we can't pay back because we want to compete with our neighbour with the brand labels we should be taught to go without and compete on a different basis - our good characters for example.

The vast majority of our NEEDS today are in fact really our wants or luxuries.

I can demonstrate with fairly basic sums that taxing charity is better for an economy than taxing income. I think you have heavily underplayed the differential between these two positions.

The reason why is because taxing savings is linked to this NEEDS vs WANTS syndrome. Our needs are not in the future. Those people who think they NEED to save for retirement are cogs in the clock of consumerism. They fail to think that the future in not necessarily going to manifest in their intended manner. To a neutral and unbiased view the savings are moneys that have been put aside that are currently not NEEDED. So this money that is not needed aught to be put back into the system so people who do need it can obtain it. This is done as an annual percentage of 2.5% off the saving amount.

To re-emphasise my definition is of consumerism is not consumption or overconsumption it is the consumption or hoarding of wealth with a world view that it is the helping force in every human situation. It is about putting value in objects that do not deserve that value such as the brand names and useless gimicks and most importantly self-serving, ego inflating products and services.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

so needs and wants are different, but that does not make wants bad, it only makes wants bade when they are resulting in issues, over extending etc. luxuries are also not wrong as long as they are within limits.

taxing charity versus taxing income? if you are taxing charity, why would I give charity?

you are also not clear on what you have an issue with, spending or saving? or both.

if theissue is with saving, it is not middle ages where I am burying a pot of gold in my backyard, the money you have saved and/or invested is very much the part of the economy.

but..at the end of the day we are coming back to the same thing.

regardles of whether I hoard, give to charity, spend on gadgets...I have to earn first, and I cant earn unless I am selling some product or service.

so we get back to square one..

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I have an issue with saving to an extent that it suffocates the economy and spending to an extent where is darkens the soul.

The current system increases the money of savers by giving them interest and it decreases the money of spenders by charging them interest on the borrowings. This will create a pushing apart of people from different financial classes.

In Shari'ah the tax on savings and zakat prevents too high amounts from being saved and the tax free income allows the low earners to live better lifestyles than they would be if their incomes were taxed.

The societal basis of Shari'ah is to prevent poverty, but the spiritual condition of Islam is the learning of being able to survive on very little. Spending on oneself is not encouraged whereas being extra for others on a social or charitable basis is good for both the economy and for the AfterLife.