consumerism - why is it bad

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

Wants are considered 'allowed' but we should channel our wants in God not in wealth. Also to learn to live with little wants as did the Salaf that would mean we are making spiritual gains. So reducing our wants is 'good' and also good for the economy.

It is good because it puts less strain on the economy trying to fuel borrowings which fall way below zero.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

What I am trying to say is ...

Earn as much as you spend but don't earn any more that you no longer need that amount, if you do have it then give it in charity, putting it in investment only delays the giving to charity

Spend as much as you earn but don't spend any more than you can afford for you could go in debt and that will strain the system which will effectively pay on your behalf.

The first one is capitalism the second one is consumerism and they go hand in hand with each other

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irresponsible use of loans is a whole diff issue, and we ahve already covered that people should only spend as much as they can really afford.

and who is then to determine what is a real 'want' versus need. I can say that you are probably using a nice computer to post using up electricity to run teh system, is this a real need for it? or is it a want.

putting it in investment introduces it in the economy and helps spur new businesses that then provide employment to people, doesn't it?

plain 'charity' means that there is an entire segment of population that has to live off the charity because there is not enough work around, because people are not purchasing products and services, so there is no need to provide those, thus less jobs.

also, if people are just purchasing basic needs, then how much can a company sell, and how can it then make large profits on volume or margin (for poremium products) to pay good salaries to people so even if they themselves dont spend a whole lot and give it all to charity..how do we expect for them to give any meaningful amount to charity.

people make money by selling services/products, and then they spend the money on other product and services, if we consider a charity as another item you 'purchase' i.e. it is another uses of your money, then how can you 'allocate money to that if you dont make much anyways.

prodcution/trade/consumption is the engine..

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Peace X2 bro

Okay really this seems to be a useful discussion as there are many points to pick up.

The first point is that we cannot justify consumerism to be a good thing if it provides wealth to poor people. Provided that is we agree that it may indeed provide wealth to people. The reason why cannot make this assertion is because we have not determined what is 'good' about wealth.

It connects back to my initial point that wealth is neither a good thing or a bad thing it is a fitnah a test to see how we handle it. Doing so selfishly is bad. Consumerism is bad because it promotes selfishness.

Charity on the other hand no matter how much or less you see it making it is infact a direct act of good will and grace, which is 'good'.

My answer lies in this - why consumerism is bad. It does not require further justification, but I also believe the capitalistic-consumer culture that we are in is self defeating and here is how.

You disagreed with me saying that investment brings money back in to the economy and hence more jobs will be available. I want to contest this generalisation.

The reason why money is invested is for returns. (Selfish). Major wins on company growth are for those people who are already rich enough to own shares in those companies. The amount of skilled people will be less than those who are unskilled. The proportion of skilled will be more employable than those who are unskilled. The reality in job creation is for the minority and those who are poor will be driven into greater poverty and those who are already rich will get richer and the system may create a few jobs. Jobs being secondary to business. Small business will not be created ... the largest proportion of stable investments are put into established companies not new ones.

To add globalisation into the equation the bigger companies get the cheaper they can make their products and sell cheaper forcing medium small competitors to go out of business and may be even forcing them to become employees. Employees get the crumbs from the plate of capital gains. You know that I know that.

The lifestyle is geared towards products purchase to satisfy peoples own shortcomings and they fall in to debt then theit incomes are made to settle their debts and pay off their interests. Meanwhile those with savings and large companies with investments will make more and more money plus the interest gained. As you can see this system increases the disparity in the financial classes. Whereas the concept of a charitable economy built on taxation of savings is the very economy that will get this world out of a recession.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

psyah there is no problem with investments, nor is there with trade for a profit. if we contrast that with charity you have two outcomes, either a hand me down culture, people are not incented to work, nor are there much opportunity...or teh charity is used to give the poor an ability to earna living by starting their own small business...and the end result is that they are providing products and services..which people have to buy.

There simply is no way that trade and consumption can be taken out of the equation, without it there is no spending and no saving.

the rest of the points about diving in debt to support a lifestyle have been addressed already. as far as large companies making things cheaper and putting ppl and mall companies out of business that is irrelevant because my stance is a very simple one of trade and consumption, wheter there are 300 companies providing goods and services, or 20..you need to have buyers, no matter what the cost basis of the company is.

the point being that no matter whichever system you look at...trade and consumption drives it.

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Peace X2

Your answer is there but you see it not. I am not talking about the result I am talking about the means and method to get that result. The 'bad' thing about consumerism is not the facade or mask that it wears regarding the economic system ... it is the promotion of selfishness. A system that encourages no charity is one that will kill the souls of people. That is where we are today.

I also think more thought should be given on the economy product, service issues that you seem to think are a good thing. Buying and sellling is trade ... but remember trade is not seen as necessarily a good thing or a bad thing provided there is no excesses and dealing is done in a permissible manner then it is halal (allowed) ... but you cannot argue that charity is considered BETTER i.e. good.

When defining good and bad we must use our religious framework to define it or else we will end up defining the good and bad by what we think is desirable ... such as a 'good economy' for instance.

Charity culture is not based on hand me downs because to make that assertion you are ignoring the social security class in our capitalistic cultures who do the same. The fact is because they will see no 'virtue in effort' they will not work. But in a society which deems it 'noble' to give then every person will want to be in a position to 'give' rather than take.

On the other hand for those cultures who think it is good to HAVE then it does not matter for those people whether they take, earn or beg when they have they are IT. Do you see the dichotomy in the HAVE culture as opposed to the GIVE culture?

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psyah we are beyond rampant conspicuous consumption sport of consumerism, a dozen posts ago. the topic now is simply consumption and trade.

bhai meray, if I am not making a comfortable living, there is little charity that I can give,
product/service are not things that i seem tot hink that are good, but they are infact good.
for charity money needs to come from somewhere. Please explain where would money for charity come if there is no business and there is no jobs.

every person would want to be in a position to give, but may not have the ability to give because theya re not earning anything.

I am not ignoring charity, charity is fantastic, (although i have seen ppl abuse the system and able bodied ppl living on the dole and using teh safety net for society's weakest in an irresponsible manner) but to give charity, money has to come from somewhere, and you can not make money unless you are providing some service, whether its your effort and skills as an employee, knowledge as a teacher, product as a manufactuere, produce as a farmer.

you are getting too detailed..and that clouds the issue.

I agree wit responsible spending and charity, etc etc. and no matter what tyoe of behavior is driven by taxing on consumption, versus income versus savings...at the end of the day, money has to come from somewhere, we cant be giving each other charity u know.

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Peace bhai X2

If you are not making a comfortable living then you needn't pay zakat either.

For those in a 'good' economy people who have lots of money will be able to give charity. The charity for the poor person is to be kind to others. Even a smile can be charity so they are not robbed of the opportunity for the reward. Please think less materialistically for this question you have asked is why is it 'bad'.

Consumerism is about buying and throwing away and then buying more it is fundamentally a system that destroys us as a socially responsible people.

I did not say that there will be no business or no jobs. I am trying to say that people need to be encouraged to setup businesses through charitable means of funding. Interest free loans, non inflated housing so people can afford to live and buy homes, no excessive schemes with interest, no glamorisation of wealth, and no wastage of commodities.

Brother you must admit that those economies that have turned out best in this recession were those who had banks which did less careless money lending. Look at Poland it is more stable ... okay its more boring than the other economies but it is more stable ... I don't think there is any more I can say to prove my point why consumerism is a bad thing ... perhaps I trust the Islamic scholars and I trust the condition thr prophet (SAW) and his companions had with regards to wealth. They did not indulge in it.

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the trouble with capitalism is that rich get richer and poor get poorer. the circulation if you can call it that is one sided. money will circulate because consumption cannot stop however in consumerism MNCs or such gain power to manipulate govts which isnt necessarily a bad thing except that they tend to become a hegmon.consummerism is considered bad by those who see the ripple effect it creates.for any form of ism to exist money has to circulate but capitalism is based on exploitation of the periphery.what do i suggest? ideally a central authroity since that is next to impossible i suggest balance of power, capitalism doesnot effectively offer that. capitalism is a sibling of economic imperialism, the avid supporters will have you believe it is the only way i donot concur for the world has seen better system.

islamic economic model (i concede i have read little on the matter) ideally doesnot stop the flow or circulation of wealth it prevents the accumulation of it. in other words zakat is much better than any tax system for it distributes the wealth in more controlled manner.taqi usmani i think has some good stuff on it if u r interested X2 i will look it up for you.

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look we dont have to use one extreme to jutify another extreme, your argument keep goign back to the moronic overspending and crazy financial scheming and greed that created the mess.

the issue i have is that anytime there is a dicussion, people jump on the issue of a consumption and say its bad.

My point is very simple, no cnsumption means no production, no production means no jobs no businesses and that means no charity,

I want to think less materialistically, but last time a smile saved the life of a starving child was, well never.

I am 100 in agreement, overspending and highly leveraged lifestyle is an issue, howver I think that a lot of what our 'islamic scholars' talk about does not answer some simple questions.

I ask them about capital creation in such circumstances and they too run to the examples of extreme, instead of proving their case

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Croquet, i will not argue with limitations of capitalism, or socialism, or communism, I think that people fundamentally have a flawed view of an islamic system.

in the end, distribution of wealth can only happen if there i wealth, and wealth is only created when some thing of perceived value is provided to consumers in exchange for somethgn else of value..money..even if you go to a barter system there is some value on your product or service, and if we are against people getting products or services or have an issue with it then what drives it?

I believe that systems in place that help the under privileged or people impacted by disability, death of the primary wage earner etc are great, as part of a system where there is competition to provide better goods and services, and there is sane consumption..needs as well as wants (responsibile manner)...and there is reinvestment to keep the system going. I earn, i save that capital is made available to someone who uses that to set up a business, hires people, sells products..makes money..etc.

No matter what name we gave to whatever system, this does not go away.

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quite agree with you. perception is usually flawed. trade is of utmost importance however the main bone of contention becomes the interest system. in islam there is no way or how for that interest and also what is considered ribah is very contextual. consumerism to my understanding (being a fan of bruce dawe and leunig) concentrates on the ill effects of consumption driven society. the distinction makes all the difference. put it this way the problem is not in consuming goods rather making a system based on consumption because in that inevitable some one's loss is some one's gain.karl marx was i think an extremely articulate critique of capitalism , lenin and communism arent accurate representative of his work and he was quite agitated with the turn comunism was taking. the flaw with marx work was that while he was an adept critique he did little on the front of proposing solutions islam on the other hand does.
what it does X2 as per my understanding it brings down the highest standarad of living and brings up the lowest standarad of living creating a broader middle class. on an international system capitalism is a nightmare. think of it this way the world's wealthist 20% controls more than 3/4 of world's resources and the poorest 20% controls 0.2%. if you want to look at capitalism in an objective manner you must look at it in international context for as i said it is based on the exploitation and it doesnt happen on as stark level in exploiter states rather between states. Look at the GATT when it comes to agricultural trade all the supporters of capitalism (USA, JAPAN, EU) become protectionist. Capitalism to me is a bleak system creating greater levels of poverty around the world while offering highest level on one scale.

Money has to be generated , consumption has to take place, islam isnt against that. islam cuts cleanly on accumulation of wealth i.e interest. The help offered to developing state is riddled with restrictions and contracts, it is a no gain system for the poor, india and china are not valid examples because while china talks about socialism it observes strictly capitalist strategies and india is obviously at the same wavelength. the saved capital is offered to help others on specific terms in turn it does little in terms of helping them add global politics to mix and its a no brainer. it is imperialism at its best.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

I never put forth capitalism as the end all be all system. It was to challenge the wrong belief that all trade activities, production, competition, advertising etc go away. trading is not necessarily one person;s gain is another's loss. even goign back to barter system, i could get something because I valued your bread more than i valued my basket..and obviously u wanted my basket for your bread..even then if the market was flooded with basketmakers, guess what happens to its trade value.

what we are falling in again is detailed analysis paralysis of the worst ills of different systems, its a commin issue in such discussions.

when you put all names for systems aside and think of it in pure production and movement of goods and competition and innovation, it would become abundantly clear that a lot of things that the proponents of some 'islamic' system critique..are not going anywhere.

No issue with islamic system, I just think it needs to be explained and shown better than just as a antiuthesis to the ills of the worst aspects of other systems.

Thank you for a spirited discussion :)

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discussion is always for the sake of discussion, didnt mean to imply that you are suggesting capitalism to be an end all or be all system. i think islamic system is still a far from being established for we donot have enough pragmatism combined with spiritual reality. there are very few scholars capable of original thought and stay true to the spirit of religion i.e ijtehad. as once an alim said that if madrassas started getting the cream of the society ,the good brains the evolving process would be excellent. as it is it is we are merely preserving religion and that too not in a successful fashion. this change can never start with high ranks. my two sikkas.

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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

the fact is ppl are kanjoos, and they hate to spend money and want to save it either for their future generation or wana have a tomb build like taj-mahal.

now if there is interest, they will whine about their rights.

if there is lill interest, then they consider that the thing is cheap> no business> nothing will circulate in the economy (as you mentioned).

and if there is no interest...since i said that ppl are kanjoos forget that u will get any money out of their pocket....aisi bhetay rahay or faka kertay rahain.

ps. in order to implement Islamic ruling we must submit ourselves to ALLAH SWT first. yahan to aghaz he khrab hai....taxes to bhut baat ki baat hai.

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Peace X2

These are also extremes. I never said no consumption ... consumerism is not defined by some consumption - it is defined as 'increasing consumption'

Also your simplified assessment of no jobs and no charity is flawed. On the face of it it seems you are right but when you do the detailed maths you will see that it does not increase charity by putting more money away into company growth. It surely does not increase charity by letting people save increasing amounts and again no charity is increased if the system promotes indulgence in the self rather than satisfaction in giving to others.

Perhaps we have to agree to disagree ... But I never said trade is bad I said consumerism is bad I also inferred that consumption is not equivalent to consumerism.

It is quite easy I am not pious to call myself a person who only obtains his needs, by far I am one who lives in luxury but I understand what is better for me.

;) Choose A Profession 4 Above Person ;)
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Re: consumerism - why is it bad

If one rich man purchases products and services enough for himself he will have surplus money.

If he gives 10 poor people to get products and services for them to get there will be no surplus money BUT more items sold.

This analogy should explain why consumerism which is spending on self in excess is different to exhumerism (charity) both are capitalistic in that both are done for profit, however, the former keeps the profit or a large amount of it and the latter shares the profit after needs are catered for. This philanthropic method drives economies.

Coupled with the culture of reductionism (i.e. going simple ... not using energy unless you have to ) then you get less waste and a better environment also and you will get people who are less spoilt by the lack of comforts and will be better in patience and more forebearing.

Isn't it obvious why the understood term of consumerism is bad. Some people argue for sustainable consumerism which is better, but even better is sustainable exhumerism if there is such a term.