Re: Consensus & The Dam
Dear LoTDs,
You have added a “+” sign in Bengalis + Sindhis + Balochis + Urdu-speakers+ Pashtuns. For a moment we accept that. Then how would you explain an utter defeat of Sh. Mujib and Awami League in Balochistan, Frontier, Sindh, and even Karachi (for Urdu-Speakers)?
There was no “+” between the provinces. It was East vs. West. No Western party won something decent in East Pakistan. Similarly Awami League lost their “zamanat” (earnest) money in the West.
Best regards
Re: Consensus & The Dam
The New Sindhis (Urdu-speakers) should oppose the KBD for if due to its construction the agrarian economy of Sindh was destroyed or gravely impacted, there would result a large-scale migration of rural Sindhis to urban centers of Sindh, affecting urban demographies and leading to ethnic and cultural tensions. Moreover, these cities have expanded so much that further migration into them will cause the crumbling of the entire infrastructure.
New Sindhis should also encourage economic development in rural Sindh (to which fuedals are a major hurdle though).
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Musharaf is gonna end up destroying the country the way he is going on and on about this whole thing.. Although I think most of the comman people dont even know enough about the issue to understand its implications, and alot of it is probably nothing more then politics, there is no excuse for risking the federation.. Hell, in 20 years, when o one has a drop to drink, they can blame themselves.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
anti: The Awami League may not have won a seat in West Pakistan..it did however pick up quite a few votes..besides that both the NAP, JUI..some factions of the ML and other non PPP or pro Army parties in 1970 were willing to negotiate with the Awami League for a peaceful resolution of disputes..unfortunately the ruling junta at the time believed the matter could be settled through force of arms. So to assume that everyone had a problem with the Awami league is factually wrong.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
antiobl: I don’t know all the intricate details of how many seats each party won in different provinces, but Awami League won enough seats to form a government, to which Punjabi (the ‘majority’ in West) didn’t agree and wanted to trash the result/make govt as ‘they’ wanted it to be (Punjab’s rule). Anyway, that is past, current situation is that everybody must be respected and receive justice, treated equally… anything outside (preferential treatment) will only damage the country.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Zakk Baboo, It is easy to talk trash about one ethnic group or the other.
Kapitaan Ji, You ought to know the details. Bhutto (A Sindhi) won in Punjab, so no one can accuse Punjab for racism. It is however racist to blame Punjab without proper analysis.
Bottom line is that Awami League suffered major defeat in "every single" province of the West Pakistan. If Mujib wanted a consensus government, why did he not form "pre-poll" alliances with Balochis, Sindhis, and Pushtoons. The reason was clear, Mujib's agenda didn't suite anyone in Sindh, Balochistan, and Frontier.
It was clear as a day to everyone in the West that Mujib was not a trustworthy partner. History now shows that even Bengalis didn't trust him. Look what they did to his entire family (minus one).
Kapitaan Ji, I fully agree what you said that "everybody must be respected and receive justice, treated equally.... anything outside (preferential treatment) will only damage the country."
You know in your heart that some minorities are demanding "preferential treatment" and they are getting away with that.
Best regards to Zakk baboo, Kaapitan Ji, and the rest.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
^^ Altaf himself looks like that!
I mean I don’t see what you see in him? and if that makes me a racist then so be it 
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Mujib did agree to two-wing government (bhutto rules west, while mujib east but even that was rejected).
If you do a breakdown of votes, (you say sindhi won in punjab) then you will see that PPP didn’t win much in frontier, balochistan or maybe even karachi. Does that make these provinces pro-bengal in your opinion? Punjab gets dragged as ultimately the army that had to transfer power didn’t (army is majority punjabi).
Bhutto was a feudal. You cannot blame him for everything.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
I would like to see any statement from Benazir during her two terms as Prime Minister where she came out and said she was dead against the Kalabagh Dam? As I stated earlier she will say and do anything to get back into power, just as she praised the Musharraf when he overthrew Nawaz Sharif in a military coup in 1999.
https://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/pak-n17_prn.shtml
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Just as I said, people will like him will fall into line fast.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005\12\16\story_16-12-2005_pg1_2
**Sindh govt will support KBD: Arbab **
KARACHI: Sindh Chief Minister Dr Arbab Ghulam Rahim has indicated that his government will support the Kalabagh Dam (KBD) project provided the province is given sufficient guarantees that its water share will be protected. Speaking in the provincial assembly on Thursday, Rahim said that the people of Sindh had apprehensions about the project that could be eased by guarantees from the system, not from an individual or the constitution. “These guarantees could be given by a friendly country, the Senate, the Supreme Court, the World Bank or the United Nations,” he added. The chief minister said that President General Pervez Musharraf was ready to give his personal assurance to the people of Sindh, but “man is mortal”. “The people of Sindh do not have faith in constitutional guarantees,” he said, adding that the constitution had been torn apart by martial law regimes. Rahim vowed his government would not compromise on the rights of the province. “We will take a stand and I am capable of sacrificing the office of the chief minister at any time [for this].”He said he was off to Islamabad soon to represent Sindh. He said no Sindhi politician could easily change his position on Kalabagh, and he could not say what position Sindhi politicians would have in the future, “but consensus has been reached at this point in time”. Rahim said Sindh’s water experts were in favour of Skardu dam, but there was no feasibility study on the project because previous governments had only focused on Kalabagh. razzak abro
Re: Consensus & The Dam
You are using HIM as an example?! LOL
People like current Sindh CM are lota's who owe their position to Mush.
The 'real' parties and leaders like PPP,MQM,ANP,etc, are all against KBD and have always been
Specifically in regards to BB,PPP have never and will never support the KBD. We know this from memory. If you want to spend your time looking on the net for this, feel free
If as you claim she would have done 'anything' to get back in power, she would have made a deal a long ago, especially during the 8 years her husband were in prison
Re: Consensus & The Dam
So what's the "real deal" as your nick says about all of it?
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Dear TRD, I share the laugh with you.
However I disagree (respectfully) when you say
I wish PPP etc. were the “RealDeal” parties. Unfortunately they are all Lotas (Water pot used for giving mini-baths when a Muslim visits toilet). Had they been real, we won’t have Army rule. Just go back 6 years and see BB Lota, Maulana Lota, and Altaf Lota all rolling in the political turd, begging Musharraf to come get his behind polished. How else could one see these “bloodless” but $hitty coups in Pakistan?
Do you think it was a pretty scene when our defenders, our soldiers were televised jumping over the PM house gate? Heck they could have rang the bell and gotten Nawaz out. Why do we delve into these $tupidies. Only because our politicos are all Lota hazrat. If in doubt, check out the now-famous un-balanced books of Mehran bank. Everyone including BB and Altaf were on the take.
Sad indeed.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Pakistan is not only a country where some rogue military dictators call the shots, but also a country of patriotic intellectuals, who don’t hasitate to speak out against the system and knows the real problems this country is confronting and tell us how to deal with them.
VIEW: Kalabagh Dam: what is to be done? —Dr Mubashir Hasan
Political issues dominate people’s minds. Opposition to the construction of Kalabagh dam politically unites the people of Balochistan and the Frontier provinces with the people of Sindh against what they perceive as the bully called Punjab, which runs Islamabad
If you asked the people of Sindh, the Frontier and Balochistan today to choose between increased irrigation water supplies in their canals and an unprecedented chance to wage a struggle for greater political and economic freedom from Islamabad, they would choose the latter.
Pakistan faced a similar situation at the end of the 1960s over the Six Points demands by the Awami League. The demands were political as well as economic. Islamabad made greater development allocations for East Pakistan. However, money was not the principal factor for Dacca then, as water is not the principal factor for Karachi, Peshawar or Quetta now. The citizens of East Pakistan came out in support of the demands principally due to two main factors — the disparity of wealth and development between the provinces and the oppressive governance of Islamabad. Today, all of Pakistan, even Punjab, wishes to wage such a struggle.
Islamabad finds itself between the devil and the deep sea. If the Kalabagh dam is not built there will be less and less water for winter crops — a sure recipe for inter-provincial strife and reduced grain production in the years to come. But if Islamabad decides to go ahead with the construction of the dam it will face the prospect of a massive struggle by the people. The result could be as uncertain as what President Yahya Khan faced when he decided to use force to crush the demands of the people of East Pakistan.
The essence of the resistance against the construction of the proposed Kalabagh dam in Sindh is only nominally about the details of its design. Engineers can change the design as ordered. It is about the Indus. It is about the lost glory of the river around which developed an advanced civilisation. Modern Sindhis do not articulate this but it is in their blood, it is in their folklore. What remains of the Indus is the most precious and the most loved of their possessions. The Indus is a highly emotional issue; when combined with politics its importance cannot be over-stated.
Few are aware that at the beginning of the 20th century the minimum quantity of water flowing to the sea below Hyderabad was between 70,000-100,000 cubic feet per second (cusecs). In summer it was more than a million cusecs. Nowadays not a drop is allowed below Kotri barrage for about nine months in an average year. The construction of canals by the British-Indian government and Pakistan has resulted in one of the great ecological disasters of the world.
The political situation in Pakistan today is not qualitatively different from that in 1970. Piled up then were the grievances of East Pakistan. Today it is those of Sindh, Balochistan and the Frontier. Political issues dominate the people’s mind. Opposition to the construction of Kalabagh dam politically unites the people of Balochistan and the Frontier provinces with the people of Sindh against what they perceive as the bully called Punjab which runs Islamabad.
Along with the people of Sindh they too have had long standing grievances against the dictatorial and undemocratic governance of Islamabad for over half a century. The resistance against the building of the dam symbolises the political unity of the three, so called, smaller provinces. In the terminology of political science the situation is as ‘revolutionary’ today as it was in 1970.
**What then should be done? First, the risk of relying on the coercive power of the state to build the dam is absolutely not worth taking. It is a political issue that should be addressed politically.
Second, all propaganda for the construction of the dam should cease as it is counter-productive. We may recall that in the 1940s, Quaid-i-Azam’s Muslim League had no press at all in the last years of the campaign except the Urdu Nawa-e-Waqt of Lahore. The successful campaign for Pakistan was waged by the anti-Pakistan Indian press through its opposition to the establishment of Pakistan. The more the Indian press wrote and Congress leaders spoke, the more the Muslims learnt about the demand for Pakistan.
It is a pity that the people of the Punjab are not aware that the benefits that will accrue to them from Kalabagh dam will in no way be extraordinary. If other provinces are against the dam so should be Punjab in the greater national interest. By not constructing the dam Punjab shall lose no more than the others.
Third, Islamabad should initiate measures to restore the glory of the Indus. It should build at least three barrages, one at the mouth of the river and two between the Arabian Sea and Kotri. They should be two-way barrages, able to take water from the sea into the river and from the river into the sea. With the barrages we can regulate the water and salinity levels in the river as they existed at the beginning of the 20th century. We can also restore marine life to its condition a century ago. The glory of the lower Indus can thus be restored.
Fourth, it should initiate political dialogue at the national level about: full provincial autonomy to the provinces; establishing an institution to conduct free and fair elections; devolution of powers relating to police, magistracy, jails and tax collection to the grassroots level; forbidding the use of secret funds for political purposes; supremacy of the parliament over the executive; independence of judiciary; the status of women; and the creation of a machinery at the national level for the protection of human rights.**
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005\12\18\story_18-12-2005_pg3_6
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Shawaiz, Thanks for sharing.
Good ole doctor shows that he still got it. His essay is filled with good suggestions.
However if the political dialogue is another name for hate-speech, then it is entirely counter productive.
If Sindh says, do not build, then there is no dialogue.
But if Sindh says, build the darned thing but give us “abc” in return. Then that is a dialogue.
Difficult thing is to figure out what is this “abc” that will keep Sindh happy. Is it more power to land lords, or more money for roads, or more schools, or all of the above?
Best regards
Re: Consensus & The Dam
in stead of fighting and arguing without the knowledge of the project itself like all our political folk is doing it.
has anyone got the design details of KBD so we can all see and judge if its evil of all times or a blessing for the country. unless that happens people against it will stay against and who agree will blindly agree to this idea.
any links, resources, documents etc should be shared here to have a healthy discussion.
none of us want to make anything that is uterly not accepted by three provinces.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Finally, you make a good point, other than just repeating the Musharraf line that Kalabagh Dam will be built no matter what.
I would like to see this information as well. I'm sure the people of 3 out of 4 provinces of Pakistan are not idiots as some people have us believe.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
^ they are not idiots at all, i think we should discuss it on technical grounds not on political basis.
This is what govt resources says may be its old,
http://www.infopak.gov.pk/public/Kalabagh_Dam.htm
they have answers to some questions in mind.
Re: Consensus & The Dam
^ actually Shak its both a technical and political issue..the politics of upper riparian water rights and the broader concept of fair distribution is very much a political issue...you have to ask yourself what guarantees can the federal gov possibly give that has any value to the people of Sind and NWFP?
Re: Consensus & The Dam
Heading towards 1971
Nice discussion here. Musharaf has started this issue once again as he has no other way to divert media and opposition, and this time efforts were started harshly, putting Punjab in its favor (that is Musharaf's or his league’s own view) and threatening other provinces of Punjab's power in population. Some recent statements from government and opposition can remind us of the prior 1971 situation, when BD was neglected in Ayub's era and Yahya encouraged disputes amongst Bhutto and Mujib to extend his government. The result was annoying for each and every one living in Pak.
Kalabagh issue is almost as old as Pakistan (or Kashmir) and almost every Government has put some effort in it (under pressure of our Lords, the international donors and banks). Musharaf is not the first one to open his big mouth, and even the most ignorant person of Pakistan can summaries this project. Every government has managed to get some loans that were spent on distinctive & unproductive (as the issue is still unsettled and as much disputed) activities. IMHO government and opposition just want to keep a regular source of income alive, and (thus) this Dam is almost impossible to accomplish. The other thing I can suggest is Musharaf is repeating almost the same things as Yahya. Zia (like Ayub) initiated ethnical disputes and Musharaf (like Yahya) will provide enough fire for a big-bang.
Almost 50 years is enough time for anyone to conclude about a project and this project is very hard to be accomplished. So it is better for the government and Musharaf (if he is sincere) to divert attention to other projects before politicians reserve their words on those. Banks may have provided enough loans for Kalabagh but most of them have helped armed-men, politicians and technocrats establish their empires. So open a Dam-Banao-presidant-fund and start working on other undisputed or less-disputed projects.
Kalabagh dam, even if it is built will always be a threat to Pakistan's unity as many minds will still be doubtful about it and it will always be considered as a dam built by a province by neglecting others.