1) Lets use some logic. According to Ahl sunnah history, Umm Kulthum married Umar in the year 17 hijri, when she was 4/5 years old. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri.
Sunni references :
History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171
al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
Historical evidences show that Hazrat Fatima(as) passed away 6 month after the demise of her father (saw), and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Umm Kulthum was born in the year 9 Hijri.
Sunni reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tradition 5.546
How is it then possible for Umm Kulthum to be born after the death of Hazrat Fatima (as) if indeed she was married to Omar in the year 17 Hijri at that age?
2) Historical evidence shows that Umm Kulthum (the wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hasan (as), Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers. Please note Imam Hasan (as) was martyred in the year 50 Hijri.
Sunni references:
Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795
Tareekhe Khamees vol II p 318
History of al-Tabri vol 12 p 15
But then other authentic shia and sunni references show that Hazrat Umm Kulthum(as) bint Ali was present in Kerbala during the year 61 Hijri. Imam Hasan(as) was not present in kerbala.
Sunni references :
Roza tul Ihbab Volume 3 page 585
Al Bidayah wa al-Nihayah
Tareekhe Khamees Volume 3 page 318
How is it possible for Imam Hasan to attend his sister's funeral, when all shia and sunni historians agree that umm kulthum was present at kerbala?
Its obvious we aren't talking about just one umm kulthum.
I've got alot more to say, but I'll leave it there for now and give it time to sink in (and not least because I hate long posts).
^^ humhaipakistani Are you suggesting or imply that Imam Jaffer As-Sadiq (ra), whom you take to be infallible to be wrong when he uttered the following:-
—Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said regarding the marriage of Umm Kulthum:
**“That was a ‘woman’ who was taken from us by force.” ** (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)
Muhammad ibn Abi ‘Umayr—Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that: —Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said: ** “When ‘Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu’minin, he said, ‘She is a child.’ Then he ‘Umar] met ‘Abbas and asked him, ‘What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?’ ‘Abbas asked, ‘Why?’ ‘Umar replied, ‘I asked your nephew for his daughter’s hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honour that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.’ ‘Abbas thereupon came to ‘Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked ‘Ali to put the matter in his hands, and ‘Ali complied.” ** (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347-348, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)
Humayd ibn Ziyad—Ibn Sama‘ah—Muhammad ibn Ziyad—‘Abdullah ibn Sinan—Mu‘awiyah ibn ‘Ammar—Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq: —[Mu‘awiyah ibn ‘Ammar says:] I asked him about a woman whose husband died: Should she spend her ‘iddah in her house, or where she wants to? He replied, **“Where she wants to. When ‘Umar died, ‘Ali came and took Umm Kulthum to his house.” ** (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 6 p. 117, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)
Muhammad ibn Yahya and others—Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa—al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id—an-Nadr ibn Suwayd—Hisham ibn Salim—Sulayman ibn Khalid, who says: —I asked Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq about the woman whose husband has died: Where should she spend her ‘iddah? In her husband’s house, or where she wants to? He said: “Where she wants to. When ‘Umar died, ‘Ali came, took Umm Kulthum by the hand, and took her to his house.” (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 6 p. 117, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)”
I think the link I had provided above (http://www.ansar.org/english/marriage.htm) does address the points raised by you. I’ll look into it further and if need be will come back later.
Ibn Sadique, theres really no need to play it dirty.
[QUOTE]
Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said regarding the marriage of Umm Kulthum: That was a ‘woman’ who was taken from us by force." (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)
[/QUOTE]
It is well known who Imam Jafer as sadiq (as) is refering to. Umer had a number of wives, one of them was Umm kulthum. This Umm was born just after Abu Bakr passed away. Soon after Imam Ali (as) married Abu Bakr's widow Asma bint Amees, and brought up his 2 children, muhammed and umm kulthum himself.
It is well documented in sunni traditions, that Umar came to Aysha (as her father had passed away) for her sister's hand in marraige (her sister was not baligh yet). At first she refused, but then when Umar persisted, she agreed to it, even though Imam Ali was totally against it. Nevertheless, it wasn't up to the Imam, because Aysha was the waris after Abu Bakr.
Also, consider the arabic text, the word 'zaalik' is used and in Arabic its used when referring to distance. In this tradition the Umme Kalthum (as) that Imam Jafer(as) was referring to was far removed from the lineage of Rasulallah(saw). Had it referred to a close relative from Ahl'ul ul bayt (as) zaalik would not have been used. The Umme Kulthum that was not closely related to the Ahl'ul bayt (as) was Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr and not binte Ali. Your 3rd and 4th hadith also refer to the same lady.
I'll deal with the other one in my next qist, for now though, please try and answer my questions.
[QUOTE]
Ibn Sadique, theres really no need to play it dirty.
[/QUOTE]
Excuse me, tell me where have I played dirty?
I have quoted you the words from very respectable and esteemed Shia book which has quoted the very words spoken by the Imam (ra), whom the Shia take as an infallible.
Note his words "who was taken from us" ** : The respected Imam (ra) is associating 'that' lady **with 'us' (Alhul Bayt (ra)).
Now as to who is playing dirty? Please check all my posts and see that I have addressed the 'Shia Imams' with respect and always added (ra) after having mentioned them.
See how you have addressed Hazrat Umar (ra), Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) and Hazrat Ayeisha (ra)?
I can have differences with you and debate with you 'till the cows come home' but will not play dirty or disrespect whom you hold in esteem!
That's a news to a lot people that Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) had another daughter, references please?
People who don’t have sense of justice and neither have they believed in it. Perhaps they need its dose. They never tried to look at the other side’s arguments. This is not because of their firm belief; it’s because of their blind faith. They always think that they will be successful by having what they already have.
Don’t ever base your faith on the attitude of just believe and no question. That’s blind faith and blind faith is not as firm as faith based on research and struggle.
Imam Zain al‘Abidin (AS) was not the only male survived from Karbala. His son Imam Muhammad Baqir (AS) and many other children survived from karbala. ----Do not believe in anything (simply) because you have heard it.— Dont take the issues of Ahle Bbait(AS) lightly, thinking “it does not matter if you make a mistake regarding them” is not fair, you claim to love them on the other and you makes mistakes. It looks very strange to me that one is very well informed about the age, number if children, and marriage, and then children of a person and on the other hand he doesnt even know how many male left after the event of karbala in history. It clearly shows that your interests are bent towards one specific group of people in Islamic history. and you dont care about the others neither even want to know about them.
bao bihari can have reference from this website. Don’t say that I don’t want to go to this website because this is a shia site. This is not a valid answer.
Rehman1 Leave the habit of teasing others, if you being teased that you will cry.
*: Note to all participants: *
*The thread has been cleaned up and off topic posts and counter replies have been removed. Please stick to the topic. Its a sensitive topic and author has requested for sincere replies and doesnt want sectarian mudslining and neither do we want to entertain such discussion. If the thread continues to go the same route as before, it will be closed. *
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
Excuse me, tell me where have I played dirty?
[/QUOTE]
I was assuming you knew what the ahadith of Imam Sadiq (as) actually refered to. I thought it was pretty well known, but if thats not really the case, then I apologise and take my words back.
[QUOTE]
I can have differences with you and debate with you 'till the cows come home' but will not play dirty or disrespect whom you hold in esteem!
[/QUOTE]
no offense, but thats not what i meant by playing dirty.
[QUOTE]
That's news to a lot people that Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) had another daughter, references please?
[/QUOTE]
I guess i assume too much, but i thought this was also common knowledge. Muhammed and umm kulthum were brought up in the house of Imam Ali (as). Umm kulthum was born after her father had passed away.
A Sunni research scholar Malik Daulath Abadi in "Hidayaath al Saud" page 359 states:
"Asma binte Amees was initially the wife of Jafer bin Tayyar then she married Abu Bakr from this relationship two children were born a boy and a girl called Umme Kalthum. After that she married Hadhrath 'Ali and Umme Kalthum came into his house. This is the Umme Kalthum that Umar married…".
Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr - Born to Asma binte Umais. She was also the mother of Muhammad bin Abu Bakr. (Alam al Nisa Volume 4 page 250).
Other Sunni references:
History of al-Tabari Volume 3 page 50, Printed in Egypt
Tareekhe Kamil Volume 3 page 121, Printed in Egypt
Tareekhe Khamees Volume 2 page 267, Printed in Egypt
Al-Isaba, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Volume 3 page 27
Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795 Printed in Hyderabad Deccan
[QUOTE]
Note his words "who was taken from us" ** : The respected Imam (ra) is associating 'that' lady **with 'us' (Alhul Bayt (ra)).
[/QUOTE]
1)You cannot assume he is talking about the Ahlul Bayt. 'us' is a broad term, also used for muslims as a whole'...they are not one of us', and as in this case also for general family.
2) According to shias, the chosen Ahlul bait are the 14 masoomin (12 Imams, Bibi Fatima and the Prophet saw.). Even though Bibi zainab and Bibi Kulthum were very pious, they are not seen as the masoom Ahlul bait. Therefore both umm kulthum could be have refered to as 'from 'us' from the family point of view.
3) This is a vague tradition, hence we cant really get to the bottom of this without looking at other authentic hadith to back it up. There are plenty of other ahadith from Imam Jaffer (within al-kafi), and other Imams, clarifying with details that it wasn't kulthum bint Ali that married Umar.
Thanks a lot for doing so much research and finding some interesting info for lazy people like us
So according to your information there were two ladies with identical names
1. Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakar:. She was born after the death of Hazrat Abu Bakar. Hazrat Ali(ra) later married her mother and she was raised in his house.
2. Umm Kulthum bint Ali: She was last born child of Hazrat Fatima(ra). And she too was raised obviously in her father’s house.
Now according to you Hazrat Umar married the first lady (Umm kulthum bint Abu bakar). Well that may be correct and historians might have confused the two ladies.
But in this case ^^ ** Ibn Siddique**’s information is not wrong too.
As both ladies were in the house of Hazrat Ali (ra) and he was the step-father of first lady, so if Hazrat Umar asked him her hand in marriage then he did the right thing by asking the right person.
And same is the case with saying of Imam Jafar Sadiq(ra). As she was the member of the family, although not blood related.
Another important lesson I learnt from all this information:
The noble companions of prophet (pbuh) were always ahead in doing good deeds and setting examples for others to follow. As in those days men got killed in wars and other incidents. So to accommodate widows of these men was a serious issue. Noble companions married the widows of other noble companions to provide financial and social protection to them and their children
inuit:
Can you please give me the summery of your information. As** the link to site you provided, contains highly offensive language, without any provocation . I am unable to understand the reason
I think they need to learn some manners on how to address other people with respect.
And I think I am not entitled to be called with bad names just because I want to seek knowledge **
Muhammad ibn Abi ‘Umayr—Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that: —Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said: "When ‘Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu’minin, he said, ‘She is a child.’ Then he ‘Umar] met ‘Abbas and asked him, ‘What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?’ ‘Abbas asked, ‘Why?’ ‘Umar replied, ‘I asked your nephew for his daughter’s hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honour that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.’ ‘Abbas thereupon came to ‘Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked ‘Ali to put the matter in his hands, and ‘Ali complied." (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347-348, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)
Did he really say all these things ?? what do you all think bout this reaction?
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Code_Red: *
Dear **humhaipakistani*,
Thanks a lot for doing so much research and finding some interesting info for lazy people like us :D
[/QUOTE]
No problemo. I thought I should put my spare time to some good use once in a while. :)
[QUOTE]
So according to your information there were two ladies with identical names
1. Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakar:. She was born after the death of Hazrat Abu Bakar. Hazrat Ali(ra) later married her mother and she was raised in his house.
2. Umm Kulthum bint Ali: She was last born child of Hazrat Fatima(ra). And she too was raised obviously in her father’s house.
[/QUOTE]
Correct. Also keep in mind that Umm Kulthum was a very common name for the arab women back then. H. Umar had 4/5 wives with this very name!
[QUOTE]
Now according to you Hazrat Umar married the first lady (Umm kulthum bint Abu bakar). Well that may be correct and historians might have confused the two ladies.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
[QUOTE]
But in this case ^^ ** Ibn Siddique**’s information is not wrong too.
As both ladies were in the house of Hazrat Ali (ra) and he was the step-father of first lady, so if Hazrat Umar asked him her hand in marriage then he did the right thing by asking the right person.
And same is the case with saying of Imam Jafar Sadiq(ra). As she was the member of the family, although not blood related.
[/QUOTE]
H. Umar didnt ask Imam Ali, but approached H. Aysha, as she was the waris of Abu Bakr. Imam Ali was totally against it, not least because Umm Kulthum was a mere child back then, but he had no hand in the final decision, H. Aysha agreed to it and so the marraige went ahead.
Nevertheless, your right about Imam Jafer Sadiq(as) though.
[QUOTE]
Another important lesson I learnt from all this information:
[/QUOTE]
I'm really glad you could take away something worthwhile from all of this and I hope you were able to confirm what you originally were looking for. I'm surprised though, the thread actually got this far. Anyway, thanks Sheraz and Azad for your support. Really Appreciate it. :)
Sorry to drag this debate along but I find there is something amiss!
I checked this information of yours and found it to be correct. So it’s agreed that there were two ladies with identical names, both under the care of Hazrat Ali (ra).
You agree that when hazrat Umar (ra) came with proposal to marry one of the Umm Kulthums hazrat Ali (ra) was not happy, and according to Imam Jaffer as Sadiq (ra) he tried excuse himself by saying ‘She is a child.’
You must realize the Umm Kulthum bint Ali was the elder than Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr, as her mother, Hazrat Fatimah Al Zuhra (ra) died earlier and Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) died about 18 months after her.
So it is safe to assume the Umm Kulthum bint Ali was at least 3 years senior to Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr.
So, the first one to reach the marriageable age has to be Umm Kulthum bint Ali. Do you agree?
If the marriage took place in 17H, Umm Kulthum bint Ali would about 8-9 years old and Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr would 3 years her junior!
Now I invite you to tell me which of the two Umm Kulthums would most likely have been married to Hazrat Umar (ra)?
I think you are very wrong in the above assumption, ‘us’ cannot be for ‘muslims as a whole’ because this was ‘inter-muslim matter.’ Can you imagine the Imam (ra) saying “That was a ‘woman’ who was taken from Muslims (us) by force.” This implies that Imam Jaffer (ra) did not take Hazrat Umar (ra) to be a Muslim! (Naudubillah!). No, he was far from that and it is well documented that the Imam (ra) had a great love and respect for Hazrat Umar (ra).
Please check below that authenticity of the of the hadiths that I have quoted from AL-Kafi – one of the most reputed books of Shiaism. All the narrators of the hadith have been declared very reliable.
Authenticity
We have here four chains of narration up to Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq. An investigation into the authenticity of these chains of narration by Shi‘i—and not Sunni—standards reveals that each and every one of them is a highly reliable and accurate chain.
NARRATION 1
al-Kulayni received the reports from Ibn Abi ‘Umayr through his teacher ‘Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Hashim al-Qummi, who is his source for about one third of the material in al-Kafi. ‘Ali ibn Ibrahim is the author of an early Tafsir of the Shi‘ah, and is highly regarded by Shi‘i rijal critics such as an-Najashi and Ibn Mutahhar, who declare him to be “thiqatun fil hadith, thabt, mu’tamad, sahih al-madhhab” (reliable in hadith transmission, reliable dependable, correct in belief.) (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat vol. 1 p. 545)
‘Ali ibn Ibrahim al-Qummi reports from his father Ibrahim ibn Hashim al-Qummi. He is reputed to have been the first to spread the hadith of the Shi‘ah from Kufah to Qum. Reports via him abound in al-Kafi, through his son. He has been generally accepted by the Shi‘ah as a reliable narrator. He is even mentioned by Abu Ja‘far at-Tusi as having met the 9th Imam. (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat vol. 1 p. 38) His reliability as a narrator is attested to in a contemporary work on the authority of his son, Ali ibn Ibrahim, Ibn Tawus and al-‘Allamah al-Hilli. (Abu Talib at-Tajlil at-Tabrizi, Mu‘jam ath-Thiqat, p. 5)
Ibrahim ibn Hashim al-Qummi reports on the authority of Muhammad ibn Abi ‘Umayr. This Ibn Abi ‘Umayr is one of the most reliable Shi‘i narrators ever. Abu Ja‘far at-Tusi says of him: “kana min awthaq an-nas” (he was of the most reliable of people). (al-Fihrist p. 169) More importantly, he was of the elect group of Shi‘i narrators called the Ashab al-Ijma‘ (Men of the Consensus). What this means is that when the chain of narration is proven authentic up to one of these men, the rest of the chain up to the Imam may automatically be assumed to be authentic too. (See the details of this consensus in al-Mamaqani, Miqbas al-Hidayah fi ‘Ilm ad-Dirayah, vol. 2 pp. 171-208) The authenticity of this narration is therefore proven on grounds of this consensus.
NARRATION 2
This report also came down to al-Kulayni through ‘Ali ibn Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abi ‘Umayr. The discussion on the first chain of narration is therefore fully applicable to this chain too.
NARRATION 3
al-Kulayni reports this narration from his teacher Humayd ibn Ziyad. This Humayd is graded by the Shi‘i rijal critics as “‘alim jalil al-qadr, wasi‘ al-‘ilm, kathir at-tasnif, thiqah” (a learned scholar, of great status, wide knowledge, a prolific author, reliable) (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 1 p. 284)
Ibn Sama‘ah is properly known as al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Sama‘ah. He was one of the foremost Shi‘i fuqaha of Kufah, and is described as “kathir al-hadith, faqihun thiqah” (a prolific narrator of hadith, a jurist, reliable). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 1 p. 225)
Muhammad ibn Ziyad is properly known as Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ziyad al-‘Attar. He is described as “thiqah” (reliable). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 2 p. 91)
‘Abdullah ibn Sinan was an eminent Imami Shi‘i of Kufah about whom it is stated: “thiqatun min ashabina, la yut‘anu ‘alayhi fi shay’” (one of our reliable associates against whom no criticism whatsoever can be levelled). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 1 p. 487)
Mu‘awiyah ibn ‘Ammar was an eminent and leading Shi‘i narrator of Kufah who narrates from Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq. His Shi‘i biographers have documented about him that he was “wajhan min ashabina muqaddaman, kabir ash-shan, azim al-mahall, thiqah” (a leading figure amongst our associates, pre-eminent, great in status, exalted in position, reliable). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 2 p. 239)
The opinions of the Shi‘i critics of hadith regarding the narrators of this report as reproduced here unequivocally indicate that what we have here is a authetic report.
NARRATION 4
al-Kulayni recorded this report on the authority of his several of his teachers, one of whom is Muhammad ibn Yahya al‘Attar al-Qummi. He was regarded as “shaykhu ashabina fi zamanihi, thiqah, ‘ayn, kathir al-hadith” (the shaykh of our associates in his time, reliable, an outstanding personality, a prolific narrator of hadith). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 2 p. 213)
Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa al-Qummi was “shaykh al-Qummiyyin, wa-wajhuhum, wa-faqihuhum, ghayra mudafa‘” (the shaykh of the people of Qum, and their undisputed leader and jurist). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 1 p. 69) Abu Ja‘far at-Tusi and al-‘Allamah al-Hilli have unequivocally declared him “thiqah” (reliable). (ar-Rijal p. 366; and al-Khulasah p. 13)
al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id is described as “‘ayn, jalil al-qadr” (an outstanding personality of great stature) and"thiqah" (reliable). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 1 p. 241)
an-Nadr ibn Suwayd is rated as “Kufi,thiqah, sahih al-hadith” (a reliable Kufan who transmits authentic hadith). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 2 p. 292)
Hisham ibn Salim is credited with having been a student of Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq. His reliability as a transmitter of hadith is attested to by the emphatic statement of al-‘Allamah and an-Najashi: “thiqatun thiqah” (reliable, and once again reliable). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 2 p. 315)
Sulayman ibn Khalid is mentioned as having been a student of Imam al-Baqir. His death is recorded to have caused Imam Ja‘far extreme grief. He is universally acclaimed as “thiqah” (reliable). (Jami‘ ar-Ruwat, vol. 1 p. 378)
This investigation concludes that each of the narrators of the four narrations affirming the marriage of Umm Kulthum documented in al-Kafi was a reliable Imami Shi‘i transmitter with whose abilities and trustworthiness in hadith transmission the Shi‘i authorities have expressed their satisfaction. The significance of this fact will come to light when we discuss the turnabout that occurred after the development of Shi‘i kalam (scholastic theology) at the hands of ash-Shaykh al-Mufid in the fifth century.
I think it has to be a brave person to challenge the authenticity of the hadith I had quote from Al-Kafi.
Sorry for the rather long post - there was no other way.
P.S. I thank you for pre-fixing the Companions’ with ‘H’ - short for hazrat. I really appreciate that. Here’s one nice flower for you
Muhammad ibn Abi ‘Umayr—Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that: —Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said: "When ‘Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu’minin, he said, ‘She is a child.’ Then he ‘Umar] met ‘Abbas and asked him, ‘What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?’ ‘Abbas asked, ‘Why?’ ‘Umar replied, ‘I asked your nephew for his daughter’s hand in marriage , and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honour that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.’ ‘Abbas thereupon came to ‘Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked ‘Ali to put the matter in his hands, and ‘Ali complied." (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347-348, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)
1) “I asked your nephew for his daughter’s hand in marriage,”
meaning hazrat Ali’s daughter’s hand.
2) “‘Abbas thereupon came to ‘Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked ‘Ali to put the matter in his hands, and ‘Ali complied."
This shows that it was hazrat Abbas (ra) who was given the ‘power of attorney” if I can use this term. There is no mention of hazrat Ayeisha (ra).
And these are Shia resources - Words spoken by Imam Jaffer as Sadiq (ra)!
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibn Sadique:
If the marriage took place in 17H, Umm Kulthum bint Ali would about 8-9 years old and Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr would 3 years her junior!
[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. Umm kulthum binte Abu Bakr was not even baligh yet whereas Umme Kuthum Bint Ali was. If we look at the tradition, where Imam Ali (AS) replies, she is a child, he used the word 'sabeyya' which means milk-fed. If the Imam (as) was refering to a baligh girl, words like sagheera or Sabeyya would not have been used. This indicates that it is actually the non baligh child that was being reffered to/asked about.
[QUOTE]
Now I invite you to tell me which of the two Umm Kulthums would most likely have been married to Hazrat Umar (ra)?
[/QUOTE]
The ahadith state that it was bint Abu Bakr that actually married H. Umar. Umm Bint Ali was already engaged with Aun bin Jaffer Tayyar, before Umar even came to propose, hence putting her outside the picture completely.
[QUOTE]
I think you are very wrong in the above assumption, ‘us’ cannot be for ‘muslims as a whole’ because this was ‘inter-muslim matter.’ Can you imagine the Imam (ra) saying "That was a ‘woman’ who was taken from Muslims (us) by force." This implies that Imam Jaffer (ra) did not take Hazrat Umar (ra) to be a Muslim! (Naudubillah!).
[/QUOTE]
I think theres a little misunderstanding here. When i said 'us.. as in muslim as a whole', i was merely giving an (unrelated) example as to how broadly the word 'us' can be used. An e.g. The Prophet (saw) sometimes said, 'those who dont pray are not one of us'. Like this 'us' refers collectively to the whole muslim ummah, my point was that similarly the family was also refered to in general terms. Hope thats cleared things up.
[QUOTE]
Please check below that authenticity of the of the hadiths that I have quoted from AL-Kafi – one of the most reputed books of Shiaism. All the narrators of the hadith have been declared very reliable. I think it has to be a brave person to challenge the authenticity of the hadith I had quote from Al-Kafi.
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1) Me thinks your mistaken again. I havent said anything about the authenticity of the hadith. All i said was the hadith you mentioned is 'vague', in that it doesnt mention any names, or anything. All we know is, some woman was taken by force. To get the details, and a better idea whose being refered to here, its best to check other authentic hadith.
2) Although Al Kafi is a well reputed book for shias, it is not considered a 'sahih'. If one ahadith outright contradicts another, the authenticity for both will be questioned, until one is found to be more reliable/stronger than the other leaving the other one to be deemed weak.
The following shows how different lives each one had, and more importantly, which one married H.Umar:
Umme Kalthum wife of Umar:
1. In 17 Hijri she was a child, born 12 Hijri
2. She died during Mu'awiya's reign with her son, in Madina
3. Amr bin Aas and Mugheera bin Shuhba were advisers to the marriage (Tabari)
4. She had children (al Maarif)
5. Umar gave dower of 40,000 dirhams
6. She died at least seven years before Kerbala
7. Had multiple marriages
*Umme Kalthum binte Fatima (as) wife of Aun bin Jafer: *
1. Born in 6 Hijri so was baligh in 17 Hijri
2. Present at Kerbala, died in 62 Hijri
3. Imam 'Ali arranged the marriage (Aqd Al Fareed) with Aun bin Jafer
4. She had no children (al Aqd al Mundhum)
5. 450 Dirhams were given as Dower (same as Sayyida Fatima) [al Aqd al Mundhum]
6. Present in Kerbala made captive by Ibn Ziyad, gave a sermon in Kufa
7. Only one marriage with Aun
1) Lets use some logic. According to Ahl sunnah history, Umm Kulthum married Umar in the year 17 hijri, when she was 4/5 years old. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri.
Sunni references :
History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171
al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
Historical evidences show that Hazrat Fatima(as) passed away 6 month after the demise of her father (saw), and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Umm Kulthum was born in the year 9 Hijri.
Sunni reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tradition 5.546
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I was just going through your previous posts and found a big discrepancy.
You have confirmed that the date of her birth was 9 hijri, and that she got married to Hazrat Umar (ra) in the year 17 H. That would make her 8 years old (17-9) not 4/5 years as you have stated!
I hope that was not a deliberate mistake on your part.
I have been in touch with a very dear friend of mine who has a great knowledge of these ‘issues’ and he has very kindly forwarded a lot of new info. I am putting it here nearly verbatim.
The marriage of Umar with Umm Kulthum al-Hashimiyya the daughter of Ali (ra) and Fatima (ra) most certainly took place. Ali gave her away to Umar (ra) upon his request although he was afraid at first that Umar (ra) might not accept her due to her youth. The dowry was 40,000 dirhams. She bore him Zayd Al Akbar, known as Ibn al Khalifatayn (Son of the Two Caliphs i.e. Umar and Ali) who became renowned for his great beauty, and a daughter, Ruqayya.
After Umar (ra) died she remarried, upon Ali’s (ra) wish, with Awn ibn Jafar ibn Abi Talib (ra). When Awn died `Ali remarried her with Muhammad ibn Jafar (ra) then, when the latter also died, with Abdullah ibn Jafar (ra) who survived her. Zayd died a young man, childless, from a stone throw in the time of Muawiya (ra). Umm Kulthum died at the same time and either Abdullah ibn Umar (ra) or Said ibn Al As ibn Said (ra) prayed over the both of them.
Sources: Ibn Sad Tabaqat (8:337-340, 8:463-464),
Al Siyar walMaghazi (pg 248),
Tarikh Al Yaqubi (2:260),
Nasab Quraysh (p. 352),
al-Tabari, Tarikh(4:199 and 5:335),
Ibn Abd al-Barr AlIstiab (4:490-491),
Nawawi, Tahdhib Al Asma wa Al Lughat (2:267),
Al Dhahabi Siyar Alam Al Nubala (5:22-24)
Tarikh Al Islam (4:58-59, 4:137-139, 4:227),
Ibn Hajars Al Isaba (4:492);
Ibn Al Athirs Usd Al Ghaba (7:387-388)
Al Kamil fi Al Tarikh (3:54, 4:12) etc.
Abdul Razzaq's version of the same report in his Musannaf (6:163) specifies that Ali had previously told Umar: "I shall send her to you and, if you agree, then she is your wife and I have married her to you."
This is narrated in al-Khatibs Tarikh Baghdad (6:182) in the entry on Ibrahim ibn Mihran ibn Rustum al-Marwazi, with a fair chain .
Here is an additional report on Umm Kulthum bint Ali:
When Ali (ra) was struck down by Ibn Muljam, Umm Kulthum said:
"Ma li wa li Salat al Subh, qutila zawji Umar Salata al ghadah, wa qutila Abi Salata al-ghadah!” * – “What does the morning prayer want with me? My husband Umar was killed at the morning prayer, and my father was killed at the morning prayer!" - Narrated from al Asbagh al Hanzali by Dhahabi in Tarikh al-Islam - (3:648-649).
I have the Tarikh of Tabari and Ibn Asakir infront of me. ** There is absolutely no mention of Umm Kulthum being present at Karbala at all. The only Umm Kulthum mentioned is Umm Kulthum Bin Abdullah.**
Yes, I think so. Umm Kulthum seems to be a very popular name in those days.
I’m glad that you liked them. This time I am going to give you two more and two more for your cheerleaders
I asked this molana who is here to recite majalis from banaras india about this..and as expected he said it was not Umme Kulsum bint Imam Ali (a.s.)..and for your kind information Umme Kulsum was present at karbala along with her sister Bibi Zainab
save your energy..this is another false rumor by the sunnis..just to show that Imam Ali (a.s.) was happy with umar..it is funny that you write that Imam Ali (a.s.) was worried that Umar will say no because of her youth..yet in ur earlier post you wrote umar got angry because Imam Ali (a.s.) said no to him
