Confirmation Anyone ?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I was surfing and found this:

Can any shia brother/sister confirm this ?

If it is true then it will be a great discovery for me :slight_smile:

source

2

I am sorry. There was some problem with my computer which generated same thread many times.

Mods please delete them. Thanks

3

Can any shia brother/sister confirm this ?

Lanat ho shytaan mardood par jo dilon main waswasay dalta hay.

Yani Ahle bait ki katti howi gardanoN ka hisaab to ghair shia rakhain ... zinda jano ka hissab shia rakhain ....... Wah maza agia

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^ are you not feeling well :confused:

If there is some dis-information in my post then please say so. I dont want to offend anyone. Just want to know the historical facts :slight_smile:

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Re: Confirmation Anyone ?

I believe you’re referring to Zaydis. He was Zayd bin Ali, as far as I know, which is why Zaydis call themselves Sayyeds, which they can only be if they can trace their lineage to one of the imams (which is the shia perspective).

There are certain people who trace their lineage to Hazrat Fatima. For instance the Fatimids. But you wouldnt be a Sayyed then.

And the jihad of Zayd happened after Karbala. I dont know much about it, except that he was killed tragically too.

(ofcourse there might be other zayds, but the “Zayd” famous, and the one people trace lineage to etc, was a son of either Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Ali bin Hussain (im not sure between the two..))

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Re: Re: Confirmation Anyone ?

hain :eek:

why everyone is confusing me. bhai main ne aap ka kia bigara hai :bummer:

If the descendent of Hazrat Fatima (May Allah be pleased with her) is not sayyed then who is. utterly confusing

7

hey, im not the expert on lineage tracing ...

as far as the discussion goes, and your original post, according to shia faith sayyeds trace lineage to one of their imams, which means zayd couldnt be a son of Hazrat Umar, according to shia belief.

8

Nahi bhai buss zara ajeeb sa laga … khair zara nahi bohut ajeeb sa laga .. jahan Ahle bait ki baat ati hay … to andaz aisa hi hota hay jaisay “lain gee yeh aap ka dard e sir aap hi bhogtain” … Aisa kiyon hay?

aap nay bhi sawal kia … sawal sub say bhi ho sakta tha .. jin ko ilm hota woh jawab day daytay … par aap nay khass logon say pocha? hum janna chah rahay hain … kia waja ho sakti hay???

aik baat or iss ko shia/sunni nok jhonk say dhoor hi rakhain.

9

Two very different personalities are being confused here!

The first one is Zaid ibn Umar Al Khattab. His mother was Umm Kulthum the second daughter of Hazrat Ali (ra) and Hazrat Fatimah Al Zuhrah (ra). Below are some the details.

Umm Kulthum was the second daughter of 'Ali and Fatimah, and the youngest of their four children. She was born in about the year 6 AH. She became of marriagable age during the khilafah of 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, and the khalifah asked for her hand in marriage. This is recorded by Ibn Sa'd in his work at-Tabaqat al-Kubra (vol. 8 p. 338, ed. Muhammad 'Ab al-Qadir 'Ata, Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyyah, Beirut 1990) as follows:

I was informed by Anas ibn 'Iyad al-Laythi, who reports on the authority of Ja'far ibn Muhammad [as-Sadiq], and he from his father [Muhammad al-Baqir]- that 'Umar ibn al-Khattab asked 'Ali ibn Abi Talib for the hand of Umm Kulthum in marriage. 'Ali said, "I had kept my daughters for the sons of Ja'far." 'Umar said, "Marry her to me, O Abul Hasan, for by Allah,there is no man on the face of the earth who seeks to achieve through her good companionship that which I seek to achieve." 'Ali said, "I have done so."

Then 'Umar came to the Muhajirun between the grave [of Rasulullah (saw)] and the pulpit. They-'Ali, 'Uthman, Zubayr, Talhah and 'Abd ar-Rahman-used to sit there, and whenever a matter used to arrive from the frontiers, 'Umar used to come to them there and consult with them. He came to them and said, "Congratulate me." They congratulated him, and asked, "With whom are we congratulating you, O Amir al-Mu'minin?" He replied, "With the daughter of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib."

Then he related to them that the Nabi (saw) said, "Every tie of kinship, and every association will be cut off on the Day of Qiyamah, except my kinship and my association." 'Umar said,] "I have had the companionship of Rasulullah (saw); I would like also to have this [kinship]."

Two children were born from this marriage, namely Zayd and Ruqayyah. After the martyrdom of 'Umar she was married to her cousin 'Awn ibn Ja'far, and after his death to his brother Muhammad ibn Ja'far. Ultimately she died while married to a third of the sons of Ja'far, namely 'Abdullah during the first half of the fourth decade after the Hijrah. Her son Zayd died on the same day as his mother, and the funeral prayer for mother and son was performed together.

The other is Zaid bin Zain al –‘Abidin (ra) (son of Imam Hussien (ra)) who was the only male to survive the slaughter at Karbala.)

Mainstream Shias take Imam Muhammad al Baqir (ra) as their fifth Imam while the Zaidi Shias split from them and take Imam Muhammad al Baqir’s brother, Zaid bin Zain al –‘Abidin, as their next Imam.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Azad: *

Nahi bhai buss zara ajeeb sa laga ... khair zara nahi bohut ajeeb sa laga .. jahan Ahle bait ki baat ati hay ...... to andaz aisa hi hota hay jaisay "lain gee yeh aap ka dard e sir aap hi bhogtain" ... Aisa kiyon hay?

aap nay bhi sawal kia ...... sawal sub say bhi ho sakta tha .. jin ko ilm hota woh jawab day daytay ...... par aap nay khass logon say pocha? hum janna chah rahay hain ... kia waja ho sakti hay???

aik baat or iss ko shia/sunni nok jhonk say dhoor hi rakhain.
[/QUOTE]

Bhai sahab aap ne tu dil pe laga li yeh baat :)

Masla sirf itna tha ke shia bhai hamarey Ahle bait ke barey main detailed information rakhtey hain. Tu is leye un se poocha tha. Agar generally poochta tu logoon ko kaafi search karna parti.

Like for example if i have a heart problem, it will be time saving to go directly to heart specialist rather then first going to Genral Physician and then he would refer me to heart specialist.

As Ahle bait live in our heart and shia are heart specialists :)

Mujhey ummeed hai ke aap ki hafgi door ho gai hogi :)

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Thank you Ibn Sadique for the information. :)

I will check it with other sources too

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
stop being dumb man
maybe u cant really help it
tell me the reason to beat up a stone? if u cant then shut the hell up..r u comparing this incident with when Prophet (pbuh) broke the moon in half? that doent make sense
well stay dumb..tum logo ka kuch nahi ho sakta
[/QUOTE]

I think this thread was about Lineage of SYEDS. And You
are talking about Hadiths and Musa(AS).

I really like IBN SIDDIQUES post he has given all the facts.
So you should read it too. I am surprised that "MAWLA" Ali(RA)
married his daughter to Hazrat Umr Farooq(RA) and that Shias hide this
fact.
Mashallah.SubanAllah. Than why you PPL create so much fuss.
Jaooo abb sweets Takseem karoooooooo.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *

I think this thread was about Lineage of SYEDS. And You
are talking about Hadiths and Musa(AS).

I really like IBN SIDDIQUES post he has given all the facts.
So you should read it too. I am surprised that "MAWLA" Ali(RA)
married his daughter to Hazrat Umr Farooq(RA).
Mashallah.SubanAllah. Than why you PPL create so much fuss.
Jaooo abb sweets Takseem karoooooooo.
[/QUOTE]

this thread was bout umar marrrying the daugher of Imam Ali (a.s.) dont be surprised because He did not..ibn sadique just brought a story from a fake story book.anyways i m out of here for now

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
I really like IBN SIDDIQUES post he has given all the facts.
So you should read it too. I am surprised that "MAWLA" Ali(RA)
married his daughter to Hazrat Umr Farooq(RA) and that Shias hide this
fact. Mashallah.SubanAllah. Than why you PPL create so much fuss.
Jaooo abb sweets Takseem karoooooooo.
[/QUOTE]

Theres nothing to hide rehman. It wasn't Imam Ali (as) daughter that married Umer. Thats historically impossible. so there's nothing really to be surprised about.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *

Theres nothing to hide rehman. It wasn't Imam Ali (as) daughter that married Umer. Thats historically impossible. so there's nothing really to be surprised about.
[/QUOTE]

Why is it historically impossible.
take care

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *

this thread was bout umar marrrying the daugher of Imam Ali (a.s.) dont be surprised because He did not..ibn sadique just brought a story from a fake story book.anyways i m out of here for now
[/QUOTE]

That's Hazrat Umr Farooq(RA).

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I have extracted the following from here: http://www.ansar.org/english/marriage.htm

It has given the relevant references from the Shias sources - books written by eminent Shia scholars of past.

“Shi‘i activity during the first century after the Hijrah had been confined to a large extent to revolutionary insurrections, starting from the campaign of the Tawwabun who sought to avenge the murder of Husayn, and continuing in the exploits of people like Mukhtar ath-Thaqafi and Abu Muslim al-Khurasani. It was only during the latter half of the second century that evidence begins to surface of some sort of intellectual activity amongst the Shi‘ah. However, here too, the scope of that activity was limited to the documentation of the sayings which the Shi‘ah ascribe to their Imams.

The fourth century after the Hijrah witnessed the compilation of Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub al-Kulayni’s monmumental work al-Kafi. This work enjoys the following distinctions:

  1. In it the author sought to document the minor compilations of Shi‘i hadith by previous authors into one major compendium

  2. It was compiled in Baghdad during the Minor Occultation of the Hidden Imam (as stated by Aqa Buzurg Tehrani in adh-Dhari‘ah, vol. 17 p. 245) at a time when the representative of the Imam resided in that city, which afforded the opportunity for its contents to be scrutinised an ratified by the Imam himself (as stated by Ibn Tawus in his book Kashf al-Mahajjah, p. 159) This is in itself proof of the authenticity of the narrations contained in the book (says al-Hurr al-‘Amili in Wasa’il ash-Shi‘ah, vol. 20 p. 71).

  3. It actually bears the seal of approval of the Hidden Imam himself, and he was the one who named it “al-Kafi” (meaning “sufficient”) by saying, as reported by al-Khwansari in Rawdat al-Jannat (vol. 6 p.116): “hadha kafin li-shi‘atina” (This is sufficient for our Shi‘ah).

In this work the author has documented at least FOUR traditions to the Imams which affirm the marriage of Umm Kulthum to ‘Umar. In fact, he has devoted the 23rd chapter in the Book on Marriage (Kitab an-Nikah) in Furu‘ al-Kafi to **the marriage of Umm Kulthum (bab tazwij Umm Kulthum). **

Two of the four traditions are contained in this chapter, while the other two are found in a related chapter on where a widow whose husband has died should spend her waiting period, or ‘iddah (bab al-mutawaffa ‘anha zawjuha al-madkhul biha ayna ta‘taddu wa ma yajibu ‘alayha).

However some of these traditions impart a unique flavour to the entire episode, in that now for the first time it becomes presented as a marriage concluded by sheer force and terror, in which ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, for all his nobility and courage, could not protect his young daughter, and was compelled, on threat of physical violence to his person, to give her to the khalifah. The traditions documented in al-Kafi are as follows:

‘Ali ibn Ibrahim—from his father—from Ibn Abi ‘Umayr—from Hisham ibn Salim and Hammad—from Zurarah, who narrates that:

—Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said regarding the marriage of Umm Kulthum:
*“That was a ‘woman’ who was taken from us by force.” ** * (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)

[The word ‘woman’ here is an attempt from the writer of this article to preserve the honour of the Ahl al-Bayt, since a literal translation of the original Arabic would prove too vulgar.]

Muhammad ibn Abi ‘Umayr—Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that: —Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said: **“When ‘Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu’minin, he said, ‘She is a child.’ Then he ‘Umar] met ‘Abbas and asked him, ‘What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?’ ‘Abbas asked, ‘Why?’ ‘Umar replied, ‘I asked your nephew for his daughter’s hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honour that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.’ ‘Abbas thereupon came to ‘Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked ‘Ali to put the matter in his hands, and ‘Ali complied.” ** (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347-348, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)

Humayd ibn Ziyad—Ibn Sama‘ah—Muhammad ibn Ziyad—‘Abdullah ibn Sinan—Mu‘awiyah ibn ‘Ammar—Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq: —[Mu‘awiyah ibn ‘Ammar says:] I asked him about a woman whose husband died: Should she spend her ‘iddah in her house, or where she wants to? He replied,**“Where she wants to. When ‘Umar died, ‘Ali came and took Umm Kulthum to his house.” ** * (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 6 p. 117, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)*

Muhammad ibn Yahya and others—Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa—al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id—an-Nadr ibn Suwayd—Hisham ibn Salim—Sulayman ibn Khalid, who says: —I asked Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq about the woman whose husband has died: Where should she spend her ‘iddah? In her husband’s house, or where she wants to? He said: *“Where she wants to. When ‘Umar died, ‘Ali came, took Umm Kulthum by the hand, and took her to his house.” ** * (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 6 p. 117, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)”

Well, the above has all the references from Shia sources, actual words spoken by the 'Infallible Imams. So it’s not:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *

this thread was bout umar marrrying the daugher of Imam Ali (a.s.) dont be surprised because He did not..ibn sadique just brought a story from a fake story book.anyways i m out of here for now
[/QUOTE]

Sheraz CT
Anything you have written so far does not contain any weight. If you have any proof of what you are saying, please bring it forward.

By saying that this could not have happend and i dont believe, you are only presenting your personal thoughts. We can not take it as evidence.

It is history and it must be documented. so we can not change it. Either it has happened or not, we can find it in books.

Ibn Sidique

Thank you for spending your time and finding relevent information for us. I appreciate that

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
allright i am tired of digging this info..this is the reference..from ur own sahi muslim..now lets see what you come up with

Chapter 39: PERTAINING TO THE MERITS OF MOSES (PEACE BE UPON HIM) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 030, Number 5849:
Hammam b. Munabbih reported that Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and one, of them speaks that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is reported to have said: Banu ....... The stone stopped after he (Moses) had been seen. He took hold of his garments and struck the stone. Abu Huraira said: I swear by Allah that there were six or seven scars on the stone because of the striking of stone by Moses (peace be upon him).

[/QUOTE]

Pls explain, do the Shia's have a different Sahi Muslim then the Sunni's.
2nd i find this bit odd. Abu Hurara narrated the hadith of the Prophet (S.A.W), and then said I swear by Allah that there were six or seven scars on the stone because of the striking of stone by Moses (peace be upon him). How can he(Abu Huraira) swear on it, did he see the stone.

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Thanks Ibn Sadique :flower2: