Concubines

Re: Concubines

^I note that you failed to prove your previous points and you do not know the Islamic definition of slavery. I also note that you clearly contradict yourself.

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Slavery is NOT a necessary outcome of of war. It is only to bring economic and social benefits to the victorious side and its soldiers.
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Is slavery not always outcome of war? or doe slavery results in social/economical benefits for victorious side? C-O-N-T-R-A-D-I-C-T-I-O-N!

Even if we assume that slavery always brings social and economical benefits for victorious side, then my friend how does it prove that it is not inevitable. We are not arguing what does slavery brings or not, you were suppose to prove me that it is not inevitable. Your new argument is pointless from that perspective!

Re: Concubines

No contradiction whatsoever, you misunderstood me. The reason for taking slaves during war is so the victors will gain economic and social benefits, including more women tohave sex with. I was only pointing out the reasons ancient societies took slaves.

Are you seriously under the impression that slavery is an outcome of modern warfare? That is preposterous. Are little Iraqi girls being flown back to the US to be used as slaves?

Re: Concubines

:salam:

This discussion is best understood through the verses of the Quran:

033.050
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father’s side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother’s side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

033.051
YUSUFALI: Thou mayest defer (the turn of) any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose (turn) thou hadst set aside. This were nigher to the cooling of their eyes, the prevention of their grief, and their satisfaction - that of all of them - with that which thou hast to give them: and Allah knows (all) that is in your hearts: and Allah is All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.
PICKTHAL: Thou canst defer whom thou wilt of them and receive unto thee whom thou wilt, and whomsoever thou desirest of those whom thou hast set aside (temporarily), it is no sin for thee (to receive her again); that is better; that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be pleased with what thou givest them. Allah knoweth what is in your hearts (O men), and Allah is ever Forgiving, Clement.
SHAKIR: You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

033.052
YUSUFALI: It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.
PICKTHAL: It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth, nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is ever Watcher over all things.
SHAKIR: It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.

004.003
YUSUFALI: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
PICKTHAL: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
SHAKIR: And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

024.033
YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world’s life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

002.221
YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
PICKTHAL: Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.
SHAKIR: And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

There is no way these verses taken overall can be mistaken for allowing concubinage in Islam. Most of the verses are in the context of what is allowed in marriage to the believer and in that respect female handmaiden slaves or servants (more appropriate term based on todays standards) are eligible candidates for marriage.

The last verse I quoted 024.033 clearly prohibits having sexual relations with female servants. What it means by “when they desire chastity…” is that if they do not consent to marriage with you then you force them into sexual relationship.

JAK. I hope this puts this discussion to an end about concubinage and Islam.

Re: Concubines

Seriously. Please read the above verses. If you can't understand after reading them the following points, then you need serious THERAPY.

  1. You are not allowed to randomly take a woman from the population and make her your slave - i.e. make her have a relationship with you against her will.

  2. You cannot TOUCH a prisoner of war sexually without her permission. YOU don't need to worry about that, because YOU are not fighting any kind of war, other than cyber warfare, and I'm sorry, but any POWs taken from GS debates don't count, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter, because in this war, YOU are losing.

  3. You are not allowed to take ANY woman out of decent wedlock, OTHER than if she were to be a POW AND if somehow she wanted to have sex with YOU, and even then, it would be most prudent for you to stick to ONE wife, as has been clearly emphasized in the Quran, and no amount of "but my parents would have a fit if I didn't buy that 80,000 ruppee jora for my bride" is going to cut it for you when you have to answer to God.

Can this thread PLEASE be locked now?? This whole idea of taking concubines in today's world coming from the mouth of a muslim who seems pretty well-read on Islam is just DISGUSTING and INSULTING to not only womanhood, but all of humanity. Its so sad that Das Reich doesn't remotely see how horrible his arguments seem to other human beings, such that he's grossed out even some of the most tight hardliners on this forum!

Re: Concubines

I think this whole forum gives a bad name to Muslims and Islam in general. Although the majority of posters here are generally respectful, these few psychos are just...pathetic.

Re: Concubines

salam alaikum brother
thanks for your input in this discussion

i dont want to argue unneccesarily over this issue and will be the first one to accept logical reasoning

[quote]

033.052
YUSUFALI: It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, **except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): **and Allah doth watch over all things.

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this verse clearly allows sexual relations between master and female slave without marriage

[quote]

024.033
YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

[/quote]

prostitution cannot here be defined as relations between master and slavegirl as i understand and ibn kathir also says in his tafseer that it refers to those who used to sell out their slave girls to others to earn money [e.g abdullah b ubay]

[quote]

The last verse I quoted 024.033 clearly prohibits having sexual relations with female servants. What it means by "when they desire chastity..." is that if they do not consent to marriage with you then you force them into sexual relationship.

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yes no one can rape a female slave but if they consent then relations with them are legal even without marriage [ref 33:52]

are u saying that you cannot have relations with female slaves without marriage ?
maybe i am not getting it

plz explain the flaws in my understanding of these verses

Re: Concubines

secondly as picoico mentioned international treaties banning slavery have to be followed by all muslim countires as a oath is binding and breaking it disgraceful. But does this apply to practising slavery WITHIN a muslim country ? not involving nonmuslim states?

Re: Concubines

It is sad and disgusting. wonder how these people view their own their own mom, wife, sister and daughter.

Will DasReich be prepared to show his mom what he has written here?

Re: Concubines

:wsalam:

The best way IMO to understand it is taking it out of isolation and view it under the bigger context of what is permitted or not permitted in Islam. A few things we know that subtely relate to intercourse:

1 - Fornication is haram and a punishable offense.
2 - Adultery is haram and a punishable offense.
3 - Rape is haram and a punishable offense.

All three involve sexual intercourse. The first two are out of consent of both parties whereas the third does not involve consent but coercion.

In the Islamic period during Arabia (consider just during the Prophet SAW period), having servants or slaves was not restricted to Married people. Unmarried people could also own slaves. There is no restriction mentioned anywhere in our scriptures for this.

What does our religion advise unmarried people who do not have the means to marry. It says fast or control your desire. There is no mention of right hand possessions for them niether in the Quran or Hadith. If sexual relations with slaves was allowed out of wedlock with them would they not be the first ones to benefit from this relaxation?

Consentual intercourse out of wedlock falls under fornication in our religion and hence it is punishable. What the verses are talking about is from whom marital candidates can be chosen. Right hand possessions fall under that category. The verse you have emboldened is talking about marriage and indicating that the Prophet SAW can marry from his right hand possessions. What you are missing is that the verses are not talking about intercourse but marriage. Its discussing what categories of women are lawful for marriage not lawful for just intercourse without the context of marriage.

Re: Concubines

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okay I understand what ur saying …slavegirls are potential mates but its not automatically assumed that they are legal to have intercourse with unless they are married first to the owner

thats exactly what i always thought ! that was the reason why i started this thread
i wish people are more clear on this subject

so this will mean that all the muslims who possessed slave girls and had intercourse with them without marrying them were guilty of Zina ?
and do the limit on 4 wives only refer to FREE women , not counting slavegirls?

see these are the hadith that i find apparently contradicting this view

sahih muslim and from abu saeed al khudri [ra]
now here if the slave women were married before intercourse …what is the point of mentioning “suffering from the absence of wives”

and also

again why didnt jabir b abdullah[ra] say his wife , rather than slavegirl

Just 2 examples of multiple occassions where muslims of the pious salaf had intercourse with slaves girls [now in all fairness i havent read anywhere that they were NOT wives, but the distinction is always mentioned i.e some are mentioned as wives other as slavegirls ]

but to prove your point here are multiple ahadith in support of it as well in this chapter
Chapter 14: EXCELLENCE OF EXMANCIPATING A SLAVE-GIRL AND THEN MARRYING HER
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3371