is really hard for me to grasp…
like..how can their be no end to the universe or time
whats outside “space”/ the universe
and how does one reconcile god into all of this
Let me at least start the conversation and we can later on tweak it to more fine details.
When you try to observe universe, all you can see is 14 billion light years (light year is the unit of distance and not time) in any direction. That is not because edge of the universe in every direction is 14BLY from us, but that is how far we can see. Light from beyond that point has not reached us yet.
Now travel to a galaxy in any direction that is 10 billion light years from us. Observe universe in every direction from there. Does that mean that you will see up to 4 bly on one side and 24 on the other? No. You will still see up to 14bly on each side. You keep traveling towards the edge and keep observing, and you will always find yourself in the centre of a sphere that has a radius of 14bly. That argument has only one logical conclusion, that universe is infinite.
Now you say that no, it does not make sense, and if we travel 10bly to one side and observe, we should only be able to see up to 4 bly now. That argument would put us, earth that is, at the dead center of this universe. That would make us very special. Question is, do you think that we are at the dead center of this universe? If no then we must be living inside an infinitely large universe.
Re: concept of infinity
How do we know we can see 14 b light yerax on all sides? The gravity waves detected by BICEP 2 supposed to be 14b light years away. Wall it means is tgr big bang occurred 14 b light years from us?
Re: concept of infinity
In cosmos 1 or 2 a person 2000 yrs ago came iup with infinity concept. With his thought expt of shooting arrow. Met by resistance? No. So infinite. Yes? Shoot arrow. Repeat!
That is only how far you can see because observations suggest that universe is 14b years old, but during earlier phase, has expended at speed much higher than the speed of light (read about theory of inflation of universe), so it’s much much larger than 28 billion light years across.
Re: concept of infinity
Haven't heard of theory of inflation of universe. (Where is Greenspan when you need him? Strike that. He would have made it worse while sounding smart).
OK. So center ( or big bang source-BBS) is say 28b light years away. Spans > 28b light yrs on either side of BBS. But if you move AWAY from BBS while on earth, you should reach the edge << 28b light years? The edge now beingA stone 's throw away?
Re: concept of infinity
Didn't diwanna broke space and time to win an argument about what infinity is?
Can't remember the thread tittle
Re: concept of infinity
is really hard for me to grasp...
like..how can their be no end to the universe or time
whats outside "space"/ the universe
and how does one reconcile god into all of this
It is very difficult to grasp. If one believes in God the way God is portrayed in the major religions, then the concept of God is that He is an infinite being. God was always there. It is hard for us to understand that , because our brains are used to things having beginnings and ends, but with God there was no beginning, there will be no end. God just is, and always will be. If one can accept that, then that is all we can do. We can never truly understand it because with our finite brains, we are not capable of. It just requires a leap of faith to accept this. Some people do, others don't. That's just my opinion on the matter, YMMV.
If you leave a blind ant on the inside surface of a large beech ball, you are leaving that ant in an infinite loop. If you're sitting on a beach, you are not only outside that infinite loop, but from ant's perspective, you're there from before the beginning and will be there after the end.
God is not part of this frame of reference and no matter how infinite this spacetime is, God will be there before beginning and after the end.
Re: concept of infinity
is really hard for me to grasp...
like..how can their be no end to the universe or time
whats outside "space"/ the universe
and how does one reconcile god into all of this
Great thread and I have thought about it too, like what exists outside space? Why is there a Universe in the first place?
Re: concept of infinity
Let me at least start the conversation and we can later on tweak it to more fine details.
When you try to observe universe, all you can see is 14 billion light years (light year is the unit of distance and not time) in any direction. That is not because edge of the universe in every direction is 14BLY from us, but that is how far we can see. Light from beyond that point has not reached us yet.
Now travel to a galaxy in any direction that is 10 billion light years from us. Observe universe in every direction from there. Does that mean that you will see up to 4 bly on one side and 24 on the other? No. You will still see up to 14bly on each side. You keep traveling towards the edge and keep observing, and you will always find yourself in the centre of a sphere that has a radius of 14bly. That argument has only one logical conclusion, that universe is infinite.
Now you say that no, it does not make sense, and if we travel 10bly to one side and observe, we should only be able to see up to 4 bly now. That argument would put us, earth that is, at the dead center of this universe. That would make us very special. Question is, do you think that we are at the dead center of this universe? If no then we must be living inside an infinitely large universe.
I was reading a while back about this theory which tries to explain how the Universe may meet its end. It basically states that everything is or will be cooling down and eventually everything will start to contract and crunch up and behold, there will be another big bang starting it all again in an infinite cycle. If that is true wouldn't that make the universe finite?
Re: concept of infinity
Btw, loving the responses guys. Some of you are extremely knowledgeable!
Re: concept of infinity
Re: concept of infinity
Let me at least start the conversation and we can later on tweak it to more fine details.
When you try to observe universe, all you can see is 14 billion light years (light year is the unit of distance and not time) in any direction. That is not because edge of the universe in every direction is 14BLY from us, but that is how far we can see. Light from beyond that point has not reached us yet.
Now travel to a galaxy in any direction that is 10 billion light years from us. Observe universe in every direction from there. Does that mean that you will see up to 4 bly on one side and 24 on the other? No. You will still see up to 14bly on each side. You keep traveling towards the edge and keep observing, and you will always find yourself in the centre of a sphere that has a radius of 14bly. That argument has only one logical conclusion, that universe is infinite.
Now you say that no, it does not make sense, and if we travel 10bly to one side and observe, we should only be able to see up to 4 bly now. That argument would put us, earth that is, at the dead center of this universe. That would make us very special. Question is, do you think that we are at the dead center of this universe? If no then we must be living inside an infinitely large universe.
Good response!
I would also mention that the shape of the universe is also what makes it forever expanding or so they say. It could be finite with no edge and turn or twist on itself or be forever expanding.
Re: concept of infinity
is really hard for me to grasp...
like..how can their be no end to the universe or time
whats outside "space"/ the universe
and how does one reconcile god into all of this
Very good question. My theory is that God is not a separate entity, an alien being watching us and deciding our fate. The way I have come to understand god is that it is in everything, it is everything. It exists in an atom, it exists in a quark. This is the only way God could be all three: omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. It is one big consciousness that is all encompassing.
Re: concept of infinity
I was reading a while back about this theory which tries to explain how the Universe may meet its end. It basically states that everything is or will be cooling down and eventually everything will start to contract and crunch up and behold, there will be another big bang starting it all again in an infinite cycle. If that is true wouldn't that make the universe finite?
Theorist answered that. There are 3 theories about the shape of the universe and that would decide the ultimate fate. Saddle shape, Spherical, or flat. More on that latter, as it requires too much typing :(
Good response!
I would also mention that the shape of the universe is also what makes it forever expanding or so they say. It could be finite with no edge and turn or twist on itself or be forever expanding.
Re: concept of infinity
Mr. Slims wrote perfect English. Ergo God exists. QED.
Re: concept of infinity
Before Medieval time, Universe was considered infinite.
All three Abraham religious scholars or great philosophers refuted this claim…to good extent.
**
If anything can be measured, then it is not infinite.** That is what I said in earlier thread which is cited above.
It is interesting that Scholars and philosophers from Greek time are mentioned and people jump right to the modern days theories skipping Scholars from Medieval time who actually brought a lot of good to the of intellectual thinking of modern day philosophers.
^ Great religious scholars are just that, great religious scholars that is. They are not physicist or cosmologist. Religion is not a source of science. We all will die a very painful death if we try to find the remedy of inflammation of appendix in Quran or in books of Imam Abu Hanifa.
Re: concept of infinity
still trying to grasp this.
i get it mathematically, theoretically...
but for me to ever understand anything...i have to develop an intuition for it...and i can't for this :(