Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]
Let me first say that both you and Lajawab are now stating your versions of history, that is that the committe sat down, that there were few disputes or none or twenty thousand is something that would convince a sunni but you understand that we have a seperate view of history.
My interest in this thread revolved around dispelling the notion that shias believe in a seperate Quran, or that we hold the Quran to be inauthentic. I have given the basis for my beliefs, and shown you a rejection of ideas of corruption of the Quran that may have crept into our history books from one of the highest, most influential, and widest followed shia clerics alive today, and a completely non-twistable declaration of belief in Allah's incorruptible word.
Now, it is merely a question of you finding it difficult to reconcile the existence of a chronological Quran with your recordings of history, it is merely an exercise of you trying to merge two histories and saying Aha! they dont match!. Well that doesnt really matter to me. You believe that there were relatively few disputes about verses, that the first Quran was compiled when Hazrat Abu Bakr suggested something, I will believe the first Quran was compiled in a different order by Hazrat Ali, but not adopted by the Muslims, who went for a different, but still authentic ordering. The basis for that belief is not a trust in those people who eventually did the ordering, but a trust in Allah's word, that no human hands can break Allah's guarantee no matter how hard they try.
Therefore, the answers I will give to you, IF they do not attempt to prove to me that shias believe in a different Quran, I will give to the minimal extent possible, in order to avoid trying to arrive at a unified view of history that is beyond the scope of you and me and lajawab and twenty thousand other historians.
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Question arises: What was the method used by the Hufaz in committing the Quran to the memory:
1) Haphazard - Each Hafiz remembering the Suras in his own particular/unique sequence?
2) Chronological order –compiled by Hz. Ali (ra)? (As claimed by the Shia – the Best version)
3) Or the Quran which the Prophet (saw) the taught the Hufaz? (As claimed by the Sunni – only version)
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I dont know, it is possible that it was number 1, and it was a mix of 1 and 3 with 2 included because the Prophet taught the Quran to the huffaz in the same order as that assembled by Ali, since all of Ali's knowledge came from the Prophet.
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There is just an odd note of compilation of Quran in chronological order by Hz. Ali. Yet there in no physical proof of it.
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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
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The 2 dozen Quran believed to be written by Hz. Ali (ra) and the Shia Imams (ra) that you say are on display in Mashad, are they in chronological order? This can be very easily verified, can’t it?
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Possibly if they let you open up their museums and get at decaying relics preserved for centuries. For that matter it can be verified if Hazrat Isa is indeed buried in Kashmir by exhuming the body buried there and its possible to verify if the Prophet is infact the Prophet of Allah by exhuming his body and showing it to the rest of the world.
It is also possible given that the sources YOU quoted said that the sequential Quran was never released to the public that the Qurans penned by the later Imams (present at Mashad) and given to the public were in the order established in their time, in order to ensure that the people have ONE Quran.
So they may indeed be in the ordering proposed by Imam Ali especially if any of them were those from their private belongings or salvaged from somewhere, but not necessarily.
If such an ordering existed, it was never released by the imams into Muslims and deliberately so, do you suppose those you purport to carry on their legacy will go against their tradition and show the world a different ordering? When shia scholars and mujtahids speak of a chronological ordering what prevents them from actually saying what the ordering was? It could be a lack of knowledge or an unwillingness to reveal it, either way you just cannot get that information.
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There were many Hufaz around at that time, it is well documented that the differences among the few of the Sahabah (raa) on the sequence of ayahs were very minor and few in nature. Just a few ayahs here or there. This is understandable keeping human nature (to forget or err) in mind.
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That is a statement of your history, that the dispute about orderings were very few etc. Trying to reconcile that with our version of history is fruitless.
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Once the Quran compilation was agreed upon there was no dispute except as narrated in books about Hz. Ali’s (ra) stance. So, only one voice of dissent?
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I dont know. Maybe there were more, or maybe as were the nature of that time, those who sided with Ali were few in number. Could have been tens of thousands of disputes.