haha, geocities.com is your source eh. These esoteric narrations are not new to any shia whos participated in debates, but ironically they are extremely novel to your ordinary everyday shia. Suffice to say, we dont believe in them, and we believe that any tradition, person or personality who suggests that the Quran is inauthentic is wrong, and you will find the same people you gleefully quote now for this admit that. Unlike the sunnies, we dont hold any book to be free from corruption, and so the traditions you quote, if they contradict the Quran, (which they do) will just not have any credence. That unforunately you cant do with your sahah e sitta, which is why you go in such circles over abrogation and goats, if you remeber the 15 page thread on it.
Go to any shia website, and read the Quran's translation. I challenge you to come up with ANY reputable shia website that has ANY Quran written different from the ones you know now. I challenge you to go to a single imam bara or shia library that does not carry the Quran on the basis that it is corrupt. And I challenge you to go to any such imambara or library that has a collection of holy books (and it will have the Quran) and show me a single one that carries another version on the basis that this is the correct version. As I posted above, shias do have in Mashad manuscripts of the "correct sequence" which were not released in public for the sake of preserving unity of the Quran. try finding an imambara that has that version with it.
As I said in my first post, it is very easy to prove within a circle of shias that regardless of what justification you offer, a goat eating a Quran's surah and abrogating a verse is a belief that the Quran can be tampered with and then say God wanted it to be tampered. Regardless, Everyday sunnies do not believe the Quran is corrupted. Neither do everyday shias believe that.
You will only find these "shia beliefs" on crackpot sunni websites. How ironic.
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You tell me this. Do you understand that there were multiple orderings by different sahaba done at that time? Do you believe ANY sahabi would offer an ordering believe it to be incorrect? If Ali thought his ordering to be correctly sequenced, and we believe Ali to be right, at best you're merely saying that the sahabi who's ordering was eventually agreed upon was right about his ordering as opposed to Ali.
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It is true that there were ‘multiple orderings’ at the time. There was a committee of God-fearing people who were on this task headed by Hz Zaid bin Thabit (ra).
It is Allah (swt) who preserved the Quran through hands of these blessed people.
There were minor disputes in sequences of ayahs which were sorted out.
Keep it in mind that Rasool Allah (saw) did recite whole of the Quran twice if think in presence of Jibrael (as) just before his demise.
Do you have any narrations that Rasool Allah recited the Quran chronologically? That would be interesting.
I dont even have narrations that the Rasool Allah recited the Quran at all before his demise, he could have, I was unaware of any tradition like that in sunnies or shias. And unfortunately Im not a shia scholar.
You say there was a committee that decided the orderings, and Allah preserved it through these people. We believe the same, that there were multiple orderings, Ali’s was the best, but Allah preserved the meaning in every single ordering of the Quran that was ever published and accepted amongst Muslims. That is the end of it, both of us have the same basis for accepting and believing in this Quran.
By the way why do you folks believe the current order to be correct as opposed to a chronological ordering? What is the rationale for the present ordering?
You can buy Kashful Asrar off the internet if you wish…It’s not a made up book…
The context by which it was recited and explained by the Holy Prophet :saw:…
Some Ayahs were revealed simultaneously at once, some came later but were completed before the other, longer ones, some came and were recorded at the same time…
^ yes but theres a million books dozens by Khomeini and other mujtahids. Shias dont believe the Quran to be corrupted as an article of their faith, and anyone or book who suggests so is wrong and demonstrating his fallibility. Everything Khomeini says isnt believed in, not even by his successor, not even in Iran, much less the bulk of the shia world, a majority proportion of which doesnt even hold Khomeini in esteem beyond a ayatollah of the past. If such a thing is listed as an article of faith of shias on any website though, its more likely than not a crackpot sunni krhcy lets get the shias off this planet because they eat children hosted by geocities webpage. Pages that scour over a particular sects literature seeking out lunacy that is a part and parcel of all human endeavour, and assuredly all endeavours are human except those by Allah.
[quote]
The context by which it was recited and explained by the Holy Prophet ...
Some Ayahs were revealed simultaneously at once, some came later but were completed before the other, longer ones, some came and were recorded at the same time...
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Okay thanks, but say why where mecci and medeni surahs not kept in order? Am I correct in understanding that you believe that the prophet recited these surahs in that order?
I'll give you a practical example of what Im talking about. This is a personal problem. I started reading the Quran's translation, the surah baqara is the first right? Reading it i repeatedly have references of The Book being offered as proof of veracity of these words, whereas Im right at the outset and so I dont really have "the Book" to begin with, nor does the significance of those words have the impact they would if I knew the contents of the book? I understand it was a surah revealed much later, when the Book had come but because it isnt a chronological ordering reading it, but that context is lost if the person reading is a non Muslim.
Ibn sadique bhai jaan this seems to be a seperate “sect”, a akhbari “sect” which is explaining all that is wrong with the rest of the shias, apparently terming them Usulis.
We dont tax you on the beliefs of the ahmadies do we
There are some Surahs which were Makki in origin, yet they continued to be received after the migration…Some came during the Madani period yet were completed before the Makki ones…
As for non-Muslims, what more could have an impact on a non-Muslim mind than Surah Fatiha (The Opening)…It is referred to as ‘The Lord’s Prayer’ in English…
Isn’t it logical and making sense that the Quran should begin with the supplication of being guided?
I personally think it makes a heck of a lot of sense, both as a Muslim and a non-Muslim…
no i wasnt talking about the Fatiha. I was talking about Surah Baqara, so you're saying that surah Baqara was the 2nd surah to be completely finished, and it was actually completed much later, thereby references to "the Book"?
i have never even heard of the akhbaris. Nor do I recognize any of the people they are showing in their website. To make your job easier, lets just say that I am a ithna athari shia who is in the taqleed of ayatollah sistani and would hold in credibility a website that has a current Mujtahid running it, or people affiliated with a certain mujtahid. 90 percent of shias would presently be affiliated with either khamenei (hawzah.org) and sistani (sistani.org and al-shia.com) and that is ideally where you should look.
Sistani’s site by the way has this to say:
Since you mention barailvis, there are many barailvi beliefs you dont believe, and many wahabis here who call barelvis kafir, the thread isnt so old. So I dont really know that when if you compare their beliefs to mine as a barailvis to a wahabis, if that gives their beliefs any credence at all from a shia perspective as far as im concerned.
More material from Sistani’s site explicitly rejecting the narrations in Kafi that certain sunnies use to try to prove to shias that we believe the Quran is corrupted:
Another of interest about Jibreel (as) reciting the whole Quran to the Prophet (saw) in the last Ramadan of the Prophet (saw).
*Narrated Fatima *(may Allah be pleased with her): The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) told me secretly, *'Jibreel used to recite to me and I to him the whole Quran once in a year but this year he recited (the whole Quran) twice. I do not think but that my death is approaching." *Saheeh Bukhari Ch 3- 1809 Virtues of the Qur'an
and according to Sunnies the present ordering of the Quran is in that order? as in the Baqara is the 2nd sura because at this time the angel recited Baqara after Fatiha to the Prophet? for sure, or to the degree the committee was able to ascertain?
ravage bhai, the book, asu repeatedly mention, is referred to in many surahs....
so u think u shud group them all as the last surah????
is that the only point u r basing chronoligocal order on????
and think again what u r fighting for - a chronologically ordered Quran which no one has ever seen....
and who knows, some inaccuracy resolved in history and it might turn out that such an ordered book never even existed....
and that too in opposition to the Quran that has been followed from the very first khalifa by all muslims to date....
