Compilation of The Quran [Split]

[Das_Reich]

[quote=Lajawab]

It is thanks to Hz. Umer who compiled the Quran and Muslims before that who memorized it to heart, otherwise if Shiaism was true, then we wouldn’t have a Quran today…Because there would be no one to memorize it…

quote]

Quran was compiled in the caliphate of Hazrat uthman not Umar(ra)

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Quran Hafiz

Brother Das Reich

I am sure brother Lajawab had the following hadith in mind.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found *'Umar bin Al-Khattab **sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost.

Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)."

By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him.

The Verse is: 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.* - Saheeh Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509

Hz. Uthman bin Affan (ra) compiled the Quran on the copy that was with Hz. Hafsa bint Umar Al Khattab (ra).

[Das_Reich]

Re: Quran Hafiz

^Brother Ibn Sadique
I did not mean to belittle the contribution of any companion
but the original statement seemed ambiguous to me as it indicated as if the Quran was complied in the caliphate of Umar(ra)
As we are remebering the contributions by various learned companions and followers mention should also be made of Abdullah ibn Masud(ra) and Qurra recieters like Zayd ibn Suhan(ra), Sa'sa'a ibn Suhan(ra) and others

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Quran Hafiz

Brother Das Reich ** I know that you were not 'belittling' anyone and Brother Lajawab's **statement did seem to be ambiguous, so I just had the hunch that he may be having the hadith I quoted in mind.

I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression to you.

He was trying to give to credit to Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab (ra) for initiating the collection of the Quran in a book form. And deservedly so.

[armughal]

Re: Authentic Shia Book/writers

[quote=“Das Reich”]

@Lajawab

Quran was compiled in the caliphate of Hazrat uthman not Umar(ra)

Uthman (ra) did not compile the Quran…
that credit goes to Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra)…

Uthman (ra) is the person who united people on a single recitation of Quran, according to the Qurayshi accent, so that non-arabs, who were fast coming into Islam, wud not confuse themselves…

[ravage]

Re: Quran Hafiz

in addition, the traditions certain sunnies use to try to prove to shias that they believe the Quran is incomplete is mirrored by the fact that there are sunni traditions of goats eating the Quran etc. Can we get past the idea that most Muslims regardless of shia or sunni believe the Quran to be complete and authentic?

Theres many shia huffaz, just because you havent met any doesnt mean they dont exist. Going by that post above it doenst seem like you've met many shias period, let alone shia huffaz.

Thirdly shias cant believe that the Quran is incomplete and inauthentic because there exist atleast 2 dozen or so copies of the Quran hand written by people shias believe to be Imams, including by Hazrat Ali. So yes if the only source of the Quran were Hazrat Umar, maybe shias would have a hard time believing it to be authentic, but not from their imams.

In shia belief, the time the rest of the prominent Muslims were gathered at Saqifa and bickering over who to make Khalifa Hazrat Ali started writing down the Quran, and his was the first compilation of the Quran. There is the belief that that arrangement of ayaat was the best one as far as chronological ordering goes, but no tehreef for us.

We dont even believe ayaat are abrogated by non-prophetic human or goat means, and believe that to be a roundabout way of saying the Quran can be tampered with you only have to justify it later and say God intended it to be so.

[Lajawab]

Re: Quran Hafiz

^^

Correction Ravage…

They were not ‘bickering’…They were in a Shura, a council, to decide who should be Khalifa and having a Shura is Sunnah…

And as you claim, Hz. Ali wrote a Quran, where is it? What good is it for if I can’t read it?

According to Shia doctrines, that Quran is with the 12th Imam in a certain cave…

My question: If that is the correct Quran and what we have is a wrong version, then all the Muslims have been duped by Allah :swt: into believing that He would protect the Quran?

OK, granted that Sunnis have been reading and reciting the wrong Quran for 1,500 years, what about the Shias living now, before the arrival of the Mahdi? Have they also been duped? Is their faith alongwith yours incomplete until the 12th Imam comes? So until the 12th Imam comes with the whole Quran, Shias and Sunnis have been practicing an incomplete faith? An incomplete Islam? And that the 12th Imam will complete Islam?

, that would mean the Holy Prophet (saw) was a liar and that Allah (swt) lied to us when He declared in the Quran that He has perfected this Deen for us through the Holy Prophet (saw)…

[Lajawab]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

[quote=“Das Reich”]

@Lajawab

Quran was compiled in the caliphate of Hazrat uthman not Umar(ra)

Thanks and correction noted…However as Mughal says, it was Hz. Abu Bakr who initiated the compilation…

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@ravage

Thirdly shias cant believe that the Quran is incomplete and inauthentic because there exist atleast 2 dozen or so copies of the Quran hand written by people shias believe to be Imams, including by Hazrat Ali. So yes if the only source of the Quran were Hazrat Umar, maybe shias would have a hard time believing it to be authentic, but not from their imams.

Brother Ravage the above is an AMAZING statement from you.

You say that the Quran believed to be compiled by Hz. Ali (ra) still exists in at least 2 dozen copies.

So why do not the Shias use this Quran. Logically this would be the best Compilation of the Quran for the Shias.

But then you have the following statement taken from a very responsible Shia Website:

"After he compiled this transcript, Imam Ali (AS) took it and presented it to the rulers who came after the Holy Prophet, and said: “Here is the book of Allah, your Lord, in the order that was revealed to your Prophet.”

But they did not accept it and replied: “We have no need of this. We have with us what you possess.”

Thereupon, Imam Ali (AS) took the transcript back and informed them that they will never see it again. It is reported that Imam Ali recited the latter part of the following verse of Quran:

*“And when Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book to clarify it to mankind and not to hide its (clarification); but they threw it away behind their backs and purchased with it some miserable gain! and what an evil was the bargain they made!” * (Quran 3:187)

By “its clarification”, Imam Ali meant the unique divine commentaries.

The Commander of Believers then concealed that transcript, and after him it was passed to the Imams who also kept it concealed. It remained concealed with the Imams, one after the other to this day, because they wished to be only one sequence of Quran among the Muslims.

Because otherwise if people have had two different sequences, it might later result to some alteration in Quran by some sick-minded people. They wished people have strictly one sequence of Quran.

The Quran and its commentary which were collected by Imam Ali (AS) is not available for any Shia in the world except to the Imam Mahdi (AS).

If the transcript of the Commander of Believers had been accepted, that would have been the Quran with unique commentary in the hand of people, but it turned out to be otherwise."

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/4.html

Isn’t the above contrary to what you have stated that at least dozen of copies are available?

How is that something that has concealed by Imam Ali (ra) and his later progeny still be available.

I have other issues in your post to take up after you have clarified your stance.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

Brother *ravage *– as you said that the correct and the best compilation of the Quran was done by Hz. Ali (ra) and the correct method was to compile the Quran was to be done in chronological order as done by Hz. Ali (ra)

So your claim that the present Quran not arranged in chronological order (directly in variance with what Hz. Ali (ra) had done) is not considered as tampered with by the Shias.

Below I have ‘tampered with’ your last post at random and some selectively and have re-arranged its chronological order. Tell me, does it carry the same message that you intended?

• In shia belief, the only source of the Quran were Hazrat Umar in addition, the traditions certain sunnies use to try to prove to shias that they believe the Quran is incomplete is mirrored by the fact that there are sunni traditions of., but no tehreef for us.

Going by that post above it doenst seem like you've met many shias period, let alone shia huffaz. There is the belief that that arrangement of ayaat was the best one as far as chronological ordering goes

the Quran is incomplete and inauthentic because Thirdly shias cant believe that there exist atleast 2 dozen or so copies of the Quran hand written by people shias believe to be Imams, including by Hazrat Ali. roundabout way of saying the Quran can be tampered with

Can we get past the idea that most Muslims regardless of shia or sunni believe the Quran to be complete and authentic? We dont even believe ayaat are abrogated by non-prophetic human or goat means So yes if maybe shias would have a hard time believing it to be authentic, but not from their imams.

Theres many shia huffaz, just because you havent met any doesnt mean they dont exist. the time the rest of the prominent Muslims were gathered at Saqifa Ali started writing down the Quran,and bickering over who to make Khalifa Hazrat and his was the first compilation of the Quran. goats eating the Quran etc, and believe that to be a you only have to justify it later and say God intended it to be so.*

[ravage]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@Ibn Sadique

Brother Ravage the above is an AMAZING statement from you.

You say that the Quran believed to be compiled by Hz. Ali (ra) still exists in at least 2 dozen copies.

So why do not the Shias use this Quran. Logically this would be the best Compilation of the Quran for the Shias.

But then you have the following statement taken from a very responsible Shia Website:

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/4.html

Isn’t the above contrary to what you have stated that at least dozen of copies are available?

http://www.al-islam.org/shrines/mashad.htm

From the same site you will scroll down and see that there are some manuscripts at Mashad of Quran’s penned by the Imams. Now, you tell me what part of the website you believe. My view of it is that we believe them to be historical treasures and believe the Quran to be preserved as is.

How is that something that has concealed by Imam Ali (ra) and his later progeny still be available.

I have other issues in your post to take up after you have clarified your stance.

It is extremely interesting to me the parts of the post you do not highlight that immediately explain why the Imam’s ordering of the Quran is not used. Allow me to repost those:

Because otherwise if people have had two different sequences, it might later result to some alteration in Quran by some sick-minded people. They wished people have strictly one sequence of Quran.

AND

If the transcript of the Commander of Believers had been accepted, that would have been the Quran with unique commentary in the hand of people, but it turned out to be otherwise."

[ravage]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@Ibn Sadique

Brother **ravage **– as you said that the correct and the best compilation of the Quran was done by Hz. Ali (ra) and the correct method was to compile the Quran was to be done in chronological order as done by Hz. Ali (ra)

So your claim that the present Quran not arranged in chronological order (directly in variance with what Hz. Ali (ra) had done) is not considered as tampered with by the Shias.

Below I have ‘tampered with’ your last post at random and some selectively and have re-arranged its chronological order. Tell me, does it carry the same message that you intended?

Do you disbelieve that the Quran in our present condition is not the only ordering that existed? Whatever criterion was used to decide the eventual ordering, whether majority vote or trusting in the intellect of certain people over others, why is it so hard for you to believe that one ordering may be better than what they agreed upon? Are you suggesting that the people who decided what ordering to follow were infallible and those who had a different ordering were absolutely wrong?

As for your example, its a moot point, because regardless of what ordering eventually happened it is a shia belief that the authencity of the Quran in meaning and message was not altered. Even the webiste you quote argues that the sequence was the best but in the name of ensuring freedom from corruption the sequence of Hazrat Ali was taken back. Thereby only valid orderings that did not change the meaning of the Quran were an option. If you try hard enough you can re-order my words in such a way that the meaning is not lost :). Your intent to selectively reorder my words is in order to pervert the meaning, however Shias believe that cant be done to the Quran

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@ravage

http://www.al-islam.org/shrines/mashad.htm

From the same site you will scroll down and see that there are some manuscripts at Mashad of Quran’s penned by the Imams. Now, you tell me what part of the website you believe. My view of it is that we believe them to be historical treasures and believe the Quran to be preserved as is.

It is extremely interesting to me the parts of the post you do not highlight that immediately explain why the Imam’s ordering of the Quran is not used. Allow me to repost those:

AND

Brother ravage It gets a bit more confusing.

How can “some manuscripts penned by the Imams” that are in Mashad are not used.

And the same article claims that the original is hidden from all.

The reason the article gave of not using the Quran of Hz. Ali (ra) - wuoted below:

Because otherwise if people have had two different sequences, it might later result to some alteration in Quran by some sick-minded people. They wished people have strictly one sequence of Quran.

So for the sake of maintaining harmony and uniformity the ‘best version of the Quran’ is hidden away from the Believers and the one not at par is taken as ‘will do.’

So why not the same attitude to your hadith books.

For the sake of harmony and uniformity display them is some library and ‘adopt’ the other versions of hadith Books.

[Lajawab]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@ravage

Because otherwise if people have had two different sequences, it might later result to some alteration in Quran by some sick-minded people. They wished people have strictly one sequence of Quran.

So it’s OK to read from the Quran of the sick minded people rather than the one considered authentic, genuine and the best?

The Quran states, the Truth stands out clear from falsehood

**2:42
YUSUFALI: And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.**

Ravage, do you honestly believe that after the above verses had been revealed, Hz. Ali would have hidden the Quran that he himself compiled and thought to be the original, correct and sequenced one?

There are other verses which relate to hiding the truth and its dire consequences, however, do you believe a man like Hz. Ali , out of frustration or anger or even concern for the Ummah, would hide the true manuscript?

Granted that the sequence we have is all wrong and corrupted…Where is the correct Quran?

And do you think Hz. Ali would let the later generations of Muslims remain in ignorance and darkness by hiding the true manuscripts? Wouldn’t that be a grievous sin on his part to do so? To cover the Truth?

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@ravage

Thereby only valid orderings that did not change the meaning of the Quran were an option. If you try hard enough you can re-order my words in such a way that the meaning is not lost :). Your intent to selectively reorder my words is in order to pervert the meaning, however Shias believe that cant be done to the Quran

That is exactly the website is accusing the Sahabah (raa) of doing. Read the words highlighted by me.

As you know the Chapter al-Alaq is not at the beginning of the present
Quran. Also Muslims agree that the verse (5:3) was among one of the
last revealed verses of Quran (but not the very last one), yet it is not
toward the end of the present Quran. This clearly proves that although
the Quran that we have available is complete, it is not in the order
that has been revealed. These few misplacements were done by some companions on purpose at worst, or out of ignorance at least.

[ravage]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@Ibn Sadique

Brother ravage It gets a bit more confusing.

How can “some manuscripts penned by the Imams” that are in Mashad are not used.

for the reason you quote below.

The reason the article gave of not using the Quran of Hz. Ali (ra) - wuoted below:

So for the sake of maintaining harmony and uniformity the ‘best version of the Quran’ is hidden away from the Believers and the one not at par is taken as ‘will do.’

So why not the same attitude to your hadith books.

For the sake of harmony and uniformity display them is some library and ‘adopt’ the other versions of hadith Books.

The straightforward answer to that is that we dont believe the Quran adopted by the Sunnies to be inauthentic because we believe the Quran is incorruptible. the fact that we have our own hadith books and completely discredit books that sunnies believe to be “sahih” while we follow in our mosques the same quran as yours supports this notion, that we believe every book and every other thing to be corruptible except the Quran.

We cannot accept lies for the sake of harmony. But for the sake of harmony we can accept an ordering of the Quran that is not the chronological ordering of Ayaat since we believe the meaning to be preserved.

That is exactly the website is accusing the Sahabah (raa) of doing. Read the words highlighted by me.

Quote:
As you know the Chapter al-Alaq is not at the beginning of the present
Quran. Also Muslims agree that the verse (5:3) was among one of the
last revealed verses of Quran (but not the very last one), yet it is not
toward the end of the present Quran. This clearly proves that although
the Quran that we have available is complete, it is not in the order
that has been revealed. These few misplacements were done by some companions on purpose at worst, or out of ignorance at least.

Once again, you’re highlighted part of it, and leaving out the rest. They do not accuse the sahaba of deliberately ordering it, they say either they made a mistake or tried to misorder it. However even if someone tried to deliberately reorder the ayaat, that does not mean that they also succeeded in doing so in a manner that altered the meaning, because we have Allah’s guarantee that cannot happen through human hands.

[ravage]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@Lajawab

So it’s OK to read from the Quran of the sick minded people rather than the one considered authentic, genuine and the best?

The Quran states, the Truth stands out clear from falsehood

**2:42
YUSUFALI: And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.**

Ravage, do you honestly believe that after the above verses had been revealed, Hz. Ali would have hidden the Quran that he himself compiled and thought to be the original, correct and sequenced one?

You tell me this. Do you understand that there were multiple orderings by different sahaba done at that time? Do you believe ANY sahabi would offer an ordering believe it to be incorrect? If Ali thought his ordering to be correctly sequenced, and we believe Ali to be right, at best you’re merely saying that the sahabi who’s ordering was eventually agreed upon was right about his ordering as opposed to Ali.

That is IT.

There are other verses which relate to hiding the truth and its dire consequences, however, do you believe a man like Hz. Ali , out of frustration or anger or even concern for the Ummah, would hide the true manuscript?

Granted that the sequence we have is all wrong and corrupted…Where is the correct Quran?

You’re inserting words neither I nor any shia source quoted so far have not used. If you read what Ibn Sadique posted, it states quite clearly that in order to preserve the Quran from being altered Ali’s sequence was taken back. Thereby “wrong and corrupted” just dont fit in because whatever sequence was preferred over Ali’s it was not a sequence that altered the Quran’s meaning in any way.

And do you think Hz. Ali would let the later generations of Muslims remain in ignorance and darkness by hiding the true manuscripts? Wouldn’t that be a grievous sin on his part to do so? To cover the Truth?

No i dont think he would leave the later generations of Muslims in darkness. Thereby the current sequence of the Quran is correct in meaning.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@ravage

Once again, you’re highlighted part of it, and leaving out the rest. They do not accuse the sahaba of deliberately ordering it, they say either they made a mistake or tried to misorder it. However even if someone tried to deliberately reorder the ayaat, that does not mean that they also succeeded in doing so in a manner that altered the meaning, because we have Allah’s guarantee that cannot happen through human hands.

You are reading it wrong brother ravage. Please re-read the words:

These few misplacements were done by some companions on purpose at worst

It means that the misplacements were done purposefully with intent to achieve the intended meaning.

That’s what I achieved by distorting your post and got somewhere the intended meaning.

[ravage]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@Ibn Sadique

You are reading it wrong brother ravage. Please re-read the words:

It means that the misplacements were done purposefully with intent to achieve the intended meaning.

first off, its suggesting it, not “accusing”. When they are saying at worst deliberate, at best ignorance, that implies that even if you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their intent was perfectly noble, you give them a fallback to saying fine, we never accused them for sure anyway. So this is a pointless exercise.

That’s what I achieved by distorting your post and got somewhere the intended meaning.

The point Ibn Sadique is that I dont have divine guarantee about my words being free from corruption through any human means, which would include reordering. If I did have Allah’s guarantee, Im sure that no matter how hard you tried, whatever you did, whatever reordering you came up with, the meaning of my words will be preserved.

That is called faith my friend

[Lajawab]

Re: Compilation of The Quran [Split]

@ravage

No i dont think he would leave the later generations of Muslims in darkness. Thereby the current sequence of the Quran is correct in meaning.

Not according to the greatest Shia scholar, Imam Khomeini…

“TAHREEF (deliberate alteration of words to change the meaning of the holy books, namely, the Bible, etc.) is that fault which Muslims accuse Jews and Christians of indulging in, has proved to be found in the Ashaabs (of Rasoolullah - sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).”
(KASHFUL ASRAR, PAGE 114)

“It was easy for the Ashaabs (of Rasoolullah - sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) to remove verses from the Holy Quran and deliberately add verses to it, and in this way forever concealing from the people of the world the true Quran.”
(KASHFUL ASRAR, PAGE 114)

http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/ahlibayt/shiism_vs_islam.html#P6