Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
bro lethal kamakazi i appreciate your contribution but we are not debating the veracity of Quran or its message here but simply the historical story behind its collection and canonization
btw i am not a "hadith rejector" , rather the purpose of this thread is to show the importance of sources ( hadith ,rijal,seerah) other than Quran in the genesis of islamic culture
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
Bro DR! I just shared how the collection of books (complete Qur'an and hadeeth) transferred to us today. Exmaple of Bible and our four Imam are given for this purpose. In my view its very difficult but not impossible to get know the historical story behind its collection and canonization with references. In this Ummah the fitnwa will be too much as one of the top 'Dajjal's Fitna'.
Please continue, i don't wanna disturb you.... :)
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
^ thanks bro u dont disturb me i just didnt want this thread to be a usual battle btw quran only and pro-hadith factions
i think the difficulty only arises when the people apply the same principles of hadith compilation which were compiled centuries later to earliest historical sources.Thats an excercise in futility , and leads to automatic rejection of a lot of historical information simply becuase of technicalities
since times immemorial arabs had a rich tradition of handing down stories within their tribes and of collecting exploits of events and battles plus lineage of their noble ancestors.These accounts cannot be dismissed out of hand ( as sometimes overly techinacal muhadith have done) rather they should be treated with a degree of healthy skepticism.Esp because these sources are invaluable to determine the life histories of hadith narraters.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
Sorry for the late reply but I actually had to hit my books for composing a further reply. This is not information you can find in cyberspace. You can only extract such information from historical scholarly text. Just to let yo know I have extracted this information from the Muwatta of Imam Muhammad, who produced the edited form of the Muwatta of Malik as he as his student.
Anyways, one thing which has not been formally liad out here is that verification of prophetic reports used to occur even among the Sahaba RA. Though it has not been recorded as being the formal procedures which can now be found in the science of validation. There are reports of when Abu Bakr RA, Umar bin Khattab RA, Ali RA and Aisha RA have resorted to verification of reports or reiteration of them at times. Now one thing that did not happen when the Sahabs narrated amongst each other regarding the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW was verification of the isnad mainly because every one of the Sahabs were trustworthy during the time of the Prophet SAW adn they did not lie to each other. Just to give you an example would when Aisha RA had corrected one of the reports from Umar RA regarding the wailing of a family upon their dead. Paraphrasing, Umar RA has said that Allah SWT increases the torment of a person due to the wailing of his family. Aisha RA had corrected this report by specifying that the Prophet SAW had said that the torment of a kafir is increasing due to the wailing of his family, this does not happen for a momin. Aisha RA had further stated that Umar RA mistake was not deliberate.
The science of hadith originated in Madinah and rightly so because most the knowledgible people about Islam lived in Madinah until the Fitnah started and then some companions migrated to other countries. Some relocated due to the expansion of the Islamic empire.
The first instance where people became conscious about falsification of hadith was during the fitnah in which Uthman RA was murdered. From this piont in our history people started segregating who the hadith reports came from and they would ask for the isnad in order to verify whether the report comes from trustworthy companions or not. So the ground rules for the science of verification came to existence sometime during the later half of the first century of Islam. Though the practice had been exercised by the Prophet SAW closest companions when necessary however there was no widespread need for it. It never became a problem till later on after the fitnah.
The followers of the first generation of companions formally introduced the earlier procedures which had been adapted by Abu Bakr RA, Umar RA and Ali RA for verification if need be and expanded on them. Al these people belonged to Madinah. They are called Sadat. A short list of them is:
Sa’id ibn AL Musayyab (d. 94AH)
Al Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (d. 104AH)
Salim ibn Abdullah ibn Umar (d. 104AH)
Ali ibn al Husayn ibn Ali (d. 93AH)
Abu Salma ibn Abd ar Rahman ibn Awf (d. 94AH)
Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utbah (d. 94AH)
Kharijah ibn Zayd ibn Thabit (d. 100AH)
Urwah ibn Az Zubayr ibn Awwam (d. 94AH)
Abu Bakr ibn Abd ar Rahman ibn Harith ibn Hisham (d. 94AH)
Sulayman ibn Yasar (d. 100AH)
If you wold but notice these pious people are among the offspring of those who fought side by side with the Prophet SAW and ever from the Prophet SAW family himself.
These people further had disciples among whom some distinguished names are:
Az Zuhri (d. 124AH)
Yahya ibn Sa’id al Ansari (d. 144AH)
HIsahm ibn Urwah (d. 146AH)
Said ibn Ibrahim (d. 146AH)
Among those who spread out to Iraq after Islamic conquests were:
Al Hasan al Basri (d. 110AH)
Tawus (d. 104AH)
Said ibn Jubayr (d. 94AH)
Ibrahim an Nakhai (d. 96AH)
Amir ash Shabi (d. 105AH)
Ibn Sirin (d. 110AH)
You can see from these Tabiun the roots of hadith verification took hold in Iraq, which eventually evolved into a powerhouse research center for hadith after Madinah. Those who go on to discredit Iraqi scholars of hadith never bother to pursue the trail of men who came with hadith to Iraq. Things did not spring out of Iraq with some disconnect.
Further distinguished muhaddiths in Iraq to learn from the above group were:
Ayyub as Sakhtiyani (d. 131AH)
Ibn Awn (d. 150AH)
The next generation of muhadddiths were less confined to their regions but traveled extensively throughout the Islamic empire. Among them are:
Sufyan ibn Said ath Thawri (d. 162AH)
Malik ibn Anas (d. 179AH)
Shubbah ibn al Hajjaj (d. 160AH - from central region, I believe central Asian)
Abd ar Rahman ibn Amr al Awzai (d. 156AH - from Beirut)
Hammad ibn Salamah (d. 176AH - from Basra)
Al Layth ibn Sad (d. 175AH - from Egypt)
Hammad ibn Zayd (d. 179AH - from Makkah)
Sufyan ibn Uyaynah (d. 198AH - from Makkah)
As one can see things regarding the science of hadith did not evolve in a vaccum but throughout the Islamic empire. The next generation of muhaddiths were:
Abdullah ibn Mubarak (d. 181AH)
Yahya ibn Said al Qattan (d. 198AH)
Waki ibn al Jarrah (d. 197AH)
Abd ar Rahman ibn Fahdi (d. 198AH)
Muhammad ibn Idris ash Shafi’i (d. 204AH)
Next come the generations where these works started to culminate in the codified hadith books we have today. Some people who further extended the efforts from their predecessors are:
Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 240AH)
Yahya ibn Main (d. 233AH)
Ali ibn Madani (d. 234AH)
Abu Bakr ibn Abi Shaybah (d. 235AH)
Ishaq ibn Ibrahim al Hanzali (d. 238AH)
Ubaydullah ibn Umar Al Qawariri (d. 235AH)
Zauhayr ibn Harb Abu Khaythamah (d. 234AH)
Then those who produced the popular works we know today:
Muhammad ibn Yahya adh Dhahli (d. 258AH)
Ubaydullah ibn Abd ar Rahman ad Darimi (d. 255AH)
Abu Zurah ar Razi (d .263AH)
Muhammad ibn Ismail al Bukhari (d. 256AH)
Muslim ibn al Hajjaj (d. 161AH)
Abu Dawud as Sijistani (d. 275AH)
Most of the work of the earlier 2 generation of muhaddiths is no longer extant but only found referenced in works of other people of historical accounts. However one can clearly see the time trail of people meticuously devoting themselves to the science of hadith as opposed to those who thikn it just all started centuries later and use that as an excuse to discredit hadith. There are many more names but the ones given in my reply are those which are more highlighted in historical reference and work on rijal material from my understanding.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
salam alaikum bro thanks a lot for that great list !
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Those who go on to discredit Iraqi scholars of hadith never bother to pursue the trail of men who came with hadith to Iraq. Things did not spring out of Iraq with some disconnect.
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I am glad you wrote this as recently there has been a trend to downplay the contribution of early iraqis to islamic theology
I think the big problem is that hadith rejectors only look at the hadith book now existing and commonly used and use their date of compilation and start criticizing them.Obviously thats a very superficial approach to history of hadith.
salam alaikum bro thanks a lot for that great list !
I am glad you wrote this as recently there has been a trend to downplay the contribution of early iraqis to islamic theology
I think the big problem is that hadith rejectors only look at the hadith book now existing and commonly used and use their date of compilation and start criticizing them.Obviously thats a very superficial approach to history of hadith.
Exactly, thats what I intended to show by posting lists of people who were actively involved in all three generations after the Prophet SAW. Things did not just initiate 2 centuries later.
I also gone through many books infact, I found one which I have right now and found some useful info which i would like to share. Before I do, I realize that the way of stating in books are different but the actuall points are same.
Before the era of Hazrat Umar bin Abdul Aziz RA, the compilation of hadeeth was banned due to reason that it will mix with Qur’an and hadeeth. But when the Hazrat Umar bin Abdul Aziz’s RA era stated, the compilation of hadeeth started. Some (Mohdassen) writers started writing book about the life of our Prophet Muhammad 
. Sahaba-e-karam RA was not able to write books in fact they discuss/repeat in their Majalis, school (Dars-Gah - Madrassa) as Khutba, speech about the life of our Prophet Muhammad . Some writers from 11th century who wrote different books is as follow:-
writer Shaik Al-Hadeeth Allama Abdul Mustafa RA Page No. 25-26-27)Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
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The first instance where people became conscious about falsification of hadith was during the fitnah in which Uthman RA was murdered. From this piont in our history people started segregating who the hadith reports came from and they would ask for the isnad in order to verify whether the report comes from trustworthy companions or not
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bro many sahaba who are very important narrater of ahadith were in oppositte camps in the fitna yet sunnis have no problem acepting their hadith as authentic
e.g umme salma and aisha were clearly pro and anti-ali respctively now even if i can trace a hadith with all reliable narraters to each of these ladies how can i be sure that they didnt invent this hadith to support their respective viewpoints ?
similar is the case of abu huraira and abu saeed al khudri who clearly had sympathies in oppositte camps.
so while these 4 sahaba may be very trustworthy wrt to certain aspects of Prophets life their ahadith should certainly be suspected of bias when it comes to controversial issues like status of ali vs abu bakr.Yet no sunni scholar wud dismiss their hadith because of the reaosn that these 4 ashab may have lied because of their partisan support.
Here I dont mean to support the harshly critical views of sahaba of imamiya 12ers or certain western orientalists eiter, however it seems quite illogical to assume that everyone who narrated directly from the Prophet did so with the best of intentions ( quite as illogical as infallibility of imams of ahlulbayt i may add)
It seems that the concept that ALL sahaba are reliable narraters of hadith comes from the need to protect hadith from criticism by imamaiya 12er and mutazilla.Because if we start suspecting the sahaba of inventing hadith that would open the door for opponents to attack hadith compilations even further.And hence the need to uphold the inviolability of all sahaba as an article of faith.
And sunnis are not alone in this either the 12er imamiya narrate their hadith mostyly fro their 5th and 6th imams and their is a conscious effort on their part to rehablitate the image and reputation of the comapnions of these imams.Even though some of them have been criticized by both imamiyah and sunni biographers in earlier works.Some companions of earlier imams esp those of ali are dismissed as disloyal as their views did not support the later imamiyah 12er doctrine
Bro DR
I want to avoid making this into a shia-sunni tussle. However I understand your point of view and it definitely depends on your perception of history. However my understanding about the historical significance regarding the fitnah and then the initial trend of verification of reports is to state that during that time people must have realized that many of the hadith narrators might have personal or political motives seeping through their narrations. Since there was no political strife prior to this event, there was no reason for any personal or political motivation in distorting the ahadith either. I would rather fall into doubt if a hadith which has political implications was narrated by all narrators belonging to the same camp and events during the time of fitnah but this is still not guaranteed.
From your perspective then all ahadith narrated by the Asahaba should be open to scrutiny regardless of their status and allegiance during the time of fitnah. it should not only be those who are against in your perception of history. For the ahadith by these Sahaba have been better scrutinized as compared to the history which tells us of the incidents.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
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I want to avoid making this into a shia-sunni tussle.
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i dont want to do that either bro thats why i assumed that both parties are equally guilty as the start of conversation.to turn this into a shia-sunni thread was not my intention at all i hope u dont misundertsand me.Thats why i mentioned that both sunni and 12er imamiyah have maintained a high reputation of their most prolific narraters of ahadith.
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Since there was no political strife prior to this event, there was no reason for any personal or political motivation in distorting the ahadith either. I would rather fall into doubt if a hadith which has political implications was narrated by all narrators belonging to the same camp and events during the time of fitnah but this is still not guaranteed.
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That I agree totally , simply the political overtones of a hadith in favor of one party or another does not neccesarily make it false.But we need to excercise catuion wrt to the primary source of the hadith i.e the sahabi and her/his political orientation
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From your perspective then all ahadith narrated by the Asahaba should be open to scrutiny regardless of their status and allegiance during the time of fitnah. it should not only be those who are against in your perception of history
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absolutely ! thats why i included umme salma and abu saeed khudri in that group despite their reportedly pro-alid stance.Exemption of ashab from scrutiny solves a big problem in authentication but makes a big assumption about their motivation.Obviously for the vast majority of hadith most ashab would have no good reason to fabricate hadith either.
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For the ahadith by these Sahaba have been better scrutinized as compared to the history which tells us of the incidents.
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Even though I may add that the later hadith compilers had a wealth of information available to them due to the efforts of early historians which helped them to better analyize the ahadith.So the contribution of historians to hadith literature cannot be ignored either
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
I think we've covered some ground here regarding the compilation of hadith through the generations following the Prophet SAW. Haven't seen anything regarding Quranic compilation in this thread yet.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
^ I think its not possible today to get the isnad for each specific ayat.But I dont think thats neccessary either.Since we know from historical records that several companions compiled the Quran during the time of early caliphate.
If we can find the ahadith and historical records attesting that then the source of Quran is quite simple
^ I think its not possible today to get the isnad for each specific ayat.But I dont think thats neccessary either.Since we know from historical records that several companions compiled the Quran during the time of early caliphate. If we can find the ahadith and historical records attesting that then the source of Quran is quite simple
What I would be interested in is hearing the perspective of the Quran onlies regarding the compilation of Quran and their sources.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
bump
What I would be interested in is hearing the perspective of the Quran onlies regarding the compilation of Quran and their sources.
Great point
then maybe we can move onto the hadith only lobby who discredit the historians and seerah writers
Great point
then maybe we can move onto the hadith only lobby who discredit the historians and seerah writers
Interestingly no Quran-onlies have shown up here to enlighten us with the history of the compilation of Quran and their sources. Its an open invitation folks. Please contribute.
First of all, you use fabrications (hadiths) to justify what you hold to be true instead of Quran. So, the very foundation of your beliefs is flawed.
The first revelation was "Read," and included the statement "God teaches by means of the pen" (96:1-4), and the second revelation was "The Pen" (68:1). The only function of the pen is to write.
Ignorant Muslim scholars of the first two centuries after the Quran could not understand the Quran's challenge to produce anything like it. They had no idea about the Quran's mathematical composition, and they knew that many literary giants could have composed works comparable to the Quran. In fact, many such literary giants did claim the ability to produce a literary work as excellent as the Quran. The latest claim came from Taha Hussein, the renowned Egyptian writer.
The ignorant Muslim scholars then decided to proclaim Muhammad an illiterate man! They figured that this would make the Quran's extraordinary literary excellence truly miraculous. The word they relied on to bestow illiteracy upon the Prophet was "UMMY." Unfortunately for those "scholars," this word clearly means "Gentile," or one who does not follow any scripture (Torah, Injeel, or Quran) [see 2:78, 3:20 & 75, 62:2]; it does NOT mean "illiterate."
The Prophet was a successful merchant. The "Muslim scholars" who fabricated the illiteracy lie forgot that there were no numbers during the Prophet's time; the letters of the alphabet were used as numbers. As a merchant dealing with numbers every day, the Prophet had to know the alphabet, from one to one-thousand.
The Quran tells us that Muhammad wrote down the Quran - Muhammad's contemporaries are quoted as saying, "These are tales from the past that he wrote down. They are being dictated to him day and night" (Quran 25:5). You cannot "dictate" to an illiterate person. The Prophet's enemies who accuse him of illiteracy abuse Verse 29:48, which relates specifically to previous scriptures.
On the 27th night of Ramadan 13 B.H. (Before Hijerah), Muhammad the soul, the real person, not the body, was summoned to the highest universe and the Quran was given to him (2:97, 17:1, 44:3, 53:1-18, 97:1-5). Subsequently, the angel Gabriel helped Muhammad release a few verses of the Quran at a time, from the soul to Muhammad's memory. The Prophet wrote down and memorized the verses just released into his mind. When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down with his own hand in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God's Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task.
The bottom line is the Quran came from GOD via Prophet Muhammad's hand, and GOD embedded a math structure beyond human ability within the Quran to prove it is from GOD. Whereas, hadith & sunnah came from Bukhari, and the last I checked he was not an authorized messenger from GOD. That is why Quran has NO contradictions, and Hadiths are loaded with contradictions. The words of men (Bukhari Hadiths) can never equal, nor abrogate the Word of GOD (Quran).
First of all, you use fabrications (hadiths) to justify what you hold to be true instead of Quran. So, the very foundation of your beliefs is flawed.
The first revelation was "Read," and included the statement "God teaches by means of the pen" (96:1-4), and the second revelation was "The Pen" (68:1). The only function of the pen is to write.
Ignorant Muslim scholars of the first two centuries after the Quran could not understand the Quran's challenge to produce anything like it. They had no idea about the Quran's mathematical composition, and they knew that many literary giants could have composed works comparable to the Quran. In fact, many such literary giants did claim the ability to produce a literary work as excellent as the Quran. The latest claim came from Taha Hussein, the renowned Egyptian writer.
The ignorant Muslim scholars then decided to proclaim Muhammad an illiterate man! They figured that this would make the Quran's extraordinary literary excellence truly miraculous. The word they relied on to bestow illiteracy upon the Prophet was "UMMY." Unfortunately for those "scholars," this word clearly means "Gentile," or one who does not follow any scripture (Torah, Injeel, or Quran) [see 2:78, 3:20 & 75, 62:2]; it does NOT mean "illiterate."
The Prophet was a successful merchant. The "Muslim scholars" who fabricated the illiteracy lie forgot that there were no numbers during the Prophet's time; the letters of the alphabet were used as numbers. As a merchant dealing with numbers every day, the Prophet had to know the alphabet, from one to one-thousand.
The Quran tells us that Muhammad wrote down the Quran - Muhammad's contemporaries are quoted as saying, "These are tales from the past that he wrote down. They are being dictated to him day and night" (Quran 25:5). You cannot "dictate" to an illiterate person. The Prophet's enemies who accuse him of illiteracy abuse Verse 29:48, which relates specifically to previous scriptures.
On the 27th night of Ramadan 13 B.H. (Before Hijerah), Muhammad the soul, the real person, not the body, was summoned to the highest universe and the Quran was given to him (2:97, 17:1, 44:3, 53:1-18, 97:1-5). Subsequently, the angel Gabriel helped Muhammad release a few verses of the Quran at a time, from the soul to Muhammad's memory. The Prophet wrote down and memorized the verses just released into his mind. When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down with his own hand in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God's Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task.
The bottom line is the Quran came from GOD via Prophet Muhammad's hand, and GOD embedded a math structure beyond human ability within the Quran to prove it is from GOD. Whereas, hadith & sunnah came from Bukhari, and the last I checked he was not an authorized messenger from GOD. That is why Quran has NO contradictions, and Hadiths are loaded with contradictions. The words of men (Bukhari Hadiths) can never equal, nor abrogate the Word of GOD (Quran).
We know you are a Quran only. So can you give us the history behind the compilation of Quran. Give us the sources from where you have extracted your historical point of view as well. So why don't you actually contribute something positive.
Re: Compilation of Quran vs Hadith
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The Prophet wrote down and memorized the verses just released into his mind. When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down with his own hand in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God's Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task.
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and this is mentioned in Quran as well ?
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and GOD embedded a math structure beyond human ability within the Quran to prove it is from GOD. Whereas, hadith & sunnah came from Bukhari, and the last I checked he was not an authorized messenger from GOD. That is why Quran has NO contradictions, and Hadiths are loaded with contradictions. The words of men (Bukhari Hadiths) can never equal, nor abrogate the Word of GOD (Quran).
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pity he didnt tell us about the math structure in Quran ? or were the early sahaba great mathematicians ? who were dazzled by the mathematical brilliance of Quran ?
and why do u pick on Bukhari, he came way later why not start with discrediting the earliest historical writings amongst muslims
and this is mentioned in Quran as well ?
pity he didnt tell us about the math structure in Quran ? or were the early sahaba great mathematicians ? who were dazzled by the mathematical brilliance of Quran ?
and why do u pick on Bukhari, he came way later why not start with discrediting the earliest historical writings amongst muslims
You guys really make me laugh. Instead of trying to rebut what I said, you just pose another question. Perhaps that is because the argument is so logical and rock solid that you cannot rebut it. Hence, divert attention away and ask something else. The fact remains that a math miracle proves the Quran is complete and unaltered. Therefore, it is the absolute truth. If it says not to use any other source of religious guidance, than DO NOT do it. Obviously, the word of GOD is not enough for you.
Peace